the church

KingdomRose

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this post of yours proves the point that we need a Church to interpret Scripture. If you could interpret Scripture infallibly you would realize that this psg means to think of no human being as being more capable of discerning what is God's will for you than God Himself. In other words, do not let a human replace God. You protestants violate this all the time when you follow human pastors over the Word. You would disobey the Word of God if a Ctholic righty interpreted said Word, just to defy a Catholic, even if you suspected him/her of being right. .. appears you hate Cathoicism more than you love God

Proof of how egregiously WRONG some of your pastors are: some of them endorse the un-Christian, bullying, protester-abusing, LIAR (etc) Donlad T for president!!! Unbelievable

You are correct about the Protestants kissing up to men by calling them "Reverend." Now, I am not Protestant, neither am I Catholic or Orthodox. Jehovah's Witnesses do not call anyone "Father" or "Reverend." As Jesus said, we have one Father, the One in heaven, and one Lord...Jesus Christ. JWs don't vote, either, as we honor Jesus' teaching that Christians are "no part of the world." HE is the one we have already voted for, when we were baptized.

I see you don't explain why your Church turns a blind eye to the principles that were quoted. You just said that you feel grateful that the Church is there to explain them, but you didn't offer any enlightenment to us.
 

KingdomRose

New member
Our Lord told His Apostles this. So we know that none of the Apostles called Peter "Holy Father," like we do now respectfully when addressing the pope, and the Apostles didn't call one another "Father," because each of them were chosen by our Lord Jesus Christ.

But they all would go on to spiritually sire or father many new members of the Body, and I am sure that they were addressed by non-Apostles, not as "Apostle," but, "Father." I know this because Paul writes about it, one, and two, that's what we do now with our clergy, who are the successors of the Apostles.
Did you really mean to use this verse? It's clearly what our Lord told His contemporaries, and not you or me. It does rise to the level of justifying voluntary separation from His Church's sacraments and obedience, though.
Culture of pagans. We don't have that now. The Church has absolutely wiped most of the earth of every paganism, so bowing today doesn't mean what it meant then. It's analogous to when words' meanings change over long periods of time. Inadvertent equivocation.
If you would resume praying to her, then in honoring her with prayer, prayer in which you ask her, to pray for you, you are getting more bang for your buck. The Church as a Body is in view when we ask Mary to pray for us sinners. Mary knows us better than we know ourselves and when we ask her to pray for us sinners, we're not asking her to pray the Rosary, but for her to pray to her son as only a biological mother can speak with her firstborn son, on our behalf, in whatever way that she sees fit. Nobody knows Him better than her, among creatures.
Supra, paganism's gone. It's been crushed. Everything you see Catholics and Orthodox doing is impossible to do without glorifying our Lord and Maker.

You are censored. Seriously, this is one of the silliest things I've ever seen, and I see it regularly from you. This is one anecdote which is part of the set of posts like this; all of which together; proof positive that when given the choice of giving your interlocutor any sort of credit at all, and making an intentionally bating disrespectful comment, you opt for the latter, frequently. You're so, silly. I don't know nor care whether you're a male or female or young or old. If this is an act or a role of yours, this is my overall judgment of it.

It is really, silly. I mean that lovingly. I believe that we are both members of the Body of Christ, however imperfectly united together we may be, so I'm offering this as a sibling who loves you. You act very very silly. So, if you were waiting for someone to come out and tell you, there it is. And if you weren't, I'm doing this because at this point it has become impossible to believe that you're only occasionally silly. It's continual. Whatever is you next strategic move in your private game, make it.

You are grasping at straws. Your explanation of calling someone "Father" is dizzying. I don't get it at all. No Christian is to call ANYONE their spiritual "Father." If it were OK, I'm sure the Apostles would have called each other that! They were always arguing about who was the greatest. They would've picked up on that "Holy Father" and "Most Holy Father" thing right away!:kookoo:

You say that the Church has "wiped out paganism." I'm trying not to laugh. Are you joking? The See has not prohibited its constituents in many countries from melding Catholicism and VooDoo, or any other form of paganism that the people combine with Catholicism. It's world-wide! Everywhere you go there are millions of Catholics that practice VooDoo, Santeria, etc.

A friend of mine who lives in Africa asked his father if the Church would object to them continuing to practice VooDoo. The father went and asked the priest. The priest said it was OK to do that. You can call me a liar, and that's OK---I can't do anything about what you think of what I'm saying. But I'll tell you now, I'm telling the truth.

I'm sure that Christians in Peter's day did NOT call the Apostles "Father." Jesus said, "ALL of you are brothers." That included disciples that weren't Apostles, as well as the Apostles.

Pray to Mary or another saint, and you "get more bang for your buck"???:confused: Dear heavens. What does Jesus think of this? Better yet, what does Mary think of this? Jesus clearly said:

"You must pray this way: OUR FATHER who art in heaven..." (Matt.6:9)

Pray only to the Father. And Jesus said that HE was the ONLY mediator between God and men...not Mary or any other saint. We pray TO the Father, THROUGH Jesus. Period. There is nothing in the Bible to even suggest that we can pray to a saint. We do not need Mary to intercede. Jesus says we can go DIRECTLY to the Father, because of Jesus' reconciliation actions.

Have you paid any attention to what goes on in, say, South America for the "Cinco de Mayo" celebrations and the big celebrations they have around Halloween, just to name a couple? There you have clear demonstrations of Catholicism combined with paganism. It's all over the world. You just have to open your eyes and look.
 

KingdomRose

New member
So?
So?

Opinions are like garbage cans. Everybody's got at least one, and they all stink.

SO???? Is that really all you can say? The scripture is CRYSTAL CLEAR: Jesus is the rock upon which the church is built.

That is nobody's OPINION. That is what God inspired St. Paul to write. It's in the Bible, as clear as day.
 

Nihilo

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Banned
SO???? Is that really all you can say? The scripture is CRYSTAL CLEAR: Jesus is the rock upon which the church is built.

That is nobody's OPINION. That is what God inspired St. Paul to write. It's in the Bible, as clear as day.
"You are Cephas, and upon this Cephas I will build My Church."
 

turbosixx

New member
You cited Ephesians 2:20 to show that the apostles were the foundation of the Church, and I said, "Read the whole verse," not just half of it. The rest of the verse shows that Jesus is the MAIN STONE, so to speak---the corner stone, which holds together the whole foundation.

"You are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ himself as the chief corner stone." (New Catholic Edition)

I think this shows who the "rock" is that Christ's church is built on.

YES. There are no verses that support the idea that Peter was the rock. Also, this verse says apostles, Plural, not Peter alone. If there were ever a supporting verse that the church was built upon the rock Peter this verse would be it but it doesn't support that notion.
 

turbosixx

New member
Well, except for Matthew 16:18, John 1:42, and every single other verse that mentions "Peter" or "Cephas."

That is the name given him by Jesus so that would stand to reason but no where is he referred to as a rock like our Lord such as this.

Rom. 9:33 just as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense,
And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed."


If you look at the Greek in Matt. 16, Peter's name is masculine and "this rock" is feminine which could not be Peter or it would be masculine. "This rock" is referring to Peter's statement that Jesus is the Christ like this verse clearly says.

I Cor.10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
 
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KingdomRose

New member
"You are Cephas, and upon this Cephas I will build My Church."

Did you happen to notice that Jesus didn't say that---as you quoted it, that is? The quote is: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church." He didn't say "upon YOU." He might even have been motioning to HIMSELF. This merits more research.

In the original languages the words for "Peter," meaning "a piece of rock," are MASCULINE (Greek: Pe'tros, masc.; Latin: Pe'trus, masc.; whereas the words for "rock" that Jesus said he would build his church on are FEMININE. (Greek: pe'trai, dative, fem. sing.; Latin: pe'tram, feminine.)

This is enough to see that Jesus did not speak of Peter as being the "rock" on which He would build His Church.
 

God's Truth

New member
It's pretty interesting then that our Lord named Simon "ROCK," then, huh? Was He trying to confuse you?

He wasn't trying to confuse me.

Read this passage:

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.


Did you read how Jesus says on this rock I will build my church.

The church is Jesus' body.

Those saved become a part of Jesus' body.

Jesus is saying that he would build his body with true worshipers, those who worship in spirit and in truth. Peter had truth revealed to him by the Spirit.

See how Jesus says the gates of Hades will not overcome it?
 

God's Truth

New member
Did you see how Jesus says the gates of Hades will not overcome it?

Think about that for awhile.

I will show you how this is not a church building.

The gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Jesus went to Hades after he died on the cross, he went there to preach the gospel to the spirits there.

The gates of Hades could not keep Jesus there.

Jesus was raised from the dead.

The church Jesus was speaking about was his body.
 

Crucible

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Banned
-18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter
-19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven
-peter got the keys
-and
-the power to bind and loose
-that means he was in charge
-someone must be in charge
-that should be clear

All which has absolutely no bearing on a 'succession'.

It's far more reasonable to say that Rome simply usurped Peter's seat to assume authority, because that's what Rome was good at- conquering things.

Peter simply got things going- there is nothing to suggest some blind following of a Christ substitute for ages to follow. If the Catholic Church messed up so much as it did, than there is nothing to suppose anyone must adhere to it.

The 'infallibility' claim came in 1054 AD, and it did nothing but cause trouble.
 

Nihilo

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For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
 

csuguy

New member
Why don't we consult Peter's thoughts on the matter of who the stone is?

1 Peter 2:4-10 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”[c] 8 and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.”[d] They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for. 9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


The Living Stone, proper, here clearly refers to Christ - the stone that was rejected by the builders that became the corner stone of the church. However, he also says that we too are as living stones which together are being built into a spiritual house and priesthood.

So Christ is THE Living Stone, the corner stone of the Church - but so is Peter a living stone, and so are we. A single stone does not make a house - we must come together, and in our unity we form the spiritual house and priesthood that is rooted upon Christ.

So the Catholics are correct that he is being called (a) stone/rock of the church in that passage. However, they don't understand that he is one of many such living stones - and that the passage in no way establishes an succession of power/authority.
 

God's Truth

New member
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Do you know how to eat Jesus' body?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
So the Catholics are correct that he is being called (a) stone/rock of the church in that passage.

There is nothing to indicate that Jesus was speaking to his disciples in the Greek language.

Jesus was able to read and speak Hebrew and in Hebrew "peter" does not mean rock.
 
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