The Bob Enyart Live forum

Sozo

New member
Sorry Turbo, I couldn't resist.



























(p.s. I haven't laughed this hard in 10 years... I may have wet my pants)
 

Mateo

New member
Any of you modern day Pharisee got any scripture to back up talking as violating the Sabbath?
 

Sozo

New member
Originally posted by Mateo

Any of you modern day Pharesee got any scripture to back up talking as violating the Sabbath?

For you Mateo, even thinking is work!
 

Nimrod

New member
Originally posted by Turbo

You posted on a Saturday morning that we ought to be keeping the Sabbath, and Sozo pointed out that you were working on your computer.

Then you said he ran from your question even though he answered it plainly, so he called you a nimrod and a KJV donkey. The text blocker was intended for that word's homonym.

Do you ever drive your car from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, Nimrod?

Hi Turbo,

I didn't get the same info out of Bozo's response as you did. I should have realized that to some the sabbath is always a Saturday or a Sunday. I hold it to one day out of seven, not always having to be the same day. Some people have to work on those days.

Yes I do drive, be we know from Scriptures that God is merciful. David ate the shewbread when he was not allowed to. God is also merciful if I decide to spark a fire on my sabbath to cook a meal.

Matt 12:1-5 "they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?"

It is when I work on the sabbath for earthly gains. That is where I draw the line.
 

1Way

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Oh, realy, you draw the line, ,,, there

Oh, realy, you draw the line, ,,, there

Nimrod – Sozo and Turbo are right, the level of incongruity concerning your adherence to keeping God’s commandments (from the previous dispensation) is pretty bizarre. God, not you, God drew the line at,

You shall not add to, or take away from His word and commandements.

And if you break my Sabbath, you are subject to the death penalty.

The issue of keeping the Sabbath the way God said it must be kept, was a matter of life and death, salvation and eternal damnation.
Nu 15:30 ‘But the person who does [anything] presumptuously, [whether he is] native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 ‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’" 32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. ...
35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.
If that is what is going on at your church, trust me, I’m not going to visit, ever. I don’t want to be accused of breaking the Sabbath and then being put to death for something as arguably trivial as picking up some sticks. Maybe you see this teaching as somehow being wrong? Man does not have the standing to pick and choose which commandments to keep or modify.

Even Jesus in the NT said that you do not have the standing to pick and choose which commandments you will observe and keep, you must keep them all, “the greater and the lesser”.

Yes, the commandments were many and sometimes conflicted, and yes God had mercy for those who could not help but to brake one commandment in order to keep another, but you are not saying that, are you? You are altering the commandment to fit your lifestyle, perhaps like that guy picking up sticks thought, like it’s no big deal, it’s not that important, I’ll just pick up some smaller sticks and not heavier logs which might draw more attention.

If you are not living like a full blown law keeping Jew, then you are breaking the commandments of God, and if you broke the Sabboth, and you claim to be a law keeper because of keeping the Sabbath, but you willfully brake it according to your own tradition and not for another other reason, so then theoretically there may be biblical grounds for the death penalty in such a case.

God was “not” merciful on the man who willfully broke the Sabbath in the desert by picking up sticks. So, by what authority do you overturn the commandments of God? What makes you think you should be exempt from keeping the entire law the way God said you must obey?
 
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1Way

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  • Two examples, one theoretical but somehow familiar.

    Theoretical example
    Lord, congregation, wait, stop, but I wasn't riding my bicycle or jogging, I was just riding my car, it’s pretty easy to drive in a car, also I hardly drove for very long.

    A biblical example
    Lord, congregation, wait, stop, but I wasn't picking up logs and trying to collect any wages, I was just picking up a small amount of sticks, it’s pretty easy to carry these sticks, also I hardly did this for a very long time, stick picking is a modest short lived endeavor.

    He (the stick man) died with his guilt remaining upon him, being “completely cut off” from God’s people.

    Not a good picture. Gee, I wonder if those two examples are similar as opposed to being different, in terms of presumptuously disobeying God’s commandment about the Sabbath.
 

Nimrod

New member
Re: Oh, realy, you draw the line, ,,, there

Re: Oh, realy, you draw the line, ,,, there

I have question listed as Q#) and again at the bottom for you 1 Way.

Originally posted by 1Way
The issue of keeping the Sabbath the way God said it must be kept, was a matter of life and death, salvation and eternal damnation.

I completely disagree about salvation. Breaking the sabbath today is not eternal damnation. You won't lose your salvation if you break the sabbath. No one is/was saved by observing the Law. This is a problem with dispensationalist, they think that the Jews were saved differently than the NT believers.
Gen 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness"
Q1)How were OT saints saved? Hmmmmmmm

Now here is the verse that looks like you will lose your salvation for breaking the sabbath.
Exodus 31:14 "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. "

It seems that the Jews would lose their salvation if they broke the sabbath. But notice the same instruction is given in circumcision.

But look in Genesis 17:14 "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant"

Abraham was righteous BEFORE circumcision came into effect.
Q2)Could Abraham lose his salvation if he didn't circumcize?

Romans 4:9-10 "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision."

Summary: you wont lose your salvation for not keeping the sabbath.
Keeping the sabbath is for santification not justification.
God blessed the sabbath, therefore to receive a blessing, keep the sabbath.
"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. "

Q3)Did God bless the sabbath?
Q4)Is the sabbath for the Jews only?

Summary: The sabbath was in effect before the LAW and before the Jews, therefore it is/was not just for the Jews.

I think as Christian believers we need to correct people about their wrongful ways, but not hit them over the head with a hammer! IF someone sins, we should speak to them lovinly and hope they will correct themselves.

Q5)Out of the ten commandments, which of them do you feel we can break and is not a sin in todays dispensation? Thou shall not covet? Thou shall not make a grave image? It is amazing to me that you will pick 1 of the ten not to observe.

but you are not saying that, are you? You are altering the commandment to fit your lifestyle

As I said earlier, I looked at what Jesus said about the sabbath.

Matt 12:11 "What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? "

Luke 14:5 "Which of you shall have an *** or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day? "

Do you think I would miss going to service because the I am not to start the car on the sabbath? How silly that is. When God told Moses not to start a fire, in those days it was work. Yes there were grounds for being put to death, but lets face it, it doesn't happen today does it.
Q6)When David murdered, why then wasn't he put to death?
Q7)When Jonah prophized about the destruction of Nevenah, and it didn't happen, wasn't he a false prophet? Why wasn't he put to death? You think God had somethign to do with it? I think God did. When the man picked up sticks in Number 15:32, who told them they should be stoned? God or Moses?


The sabbath continues.
Matt 24:20 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day"
I am really curious about this verse. How do you dispenationalist interpret this verse? I thought you believethe sabbath was done away with.
Q8)Isn't this verse about the future?
Q9)Does it only apply to Jews?


If you are not living like a full blown law keeping Jew, then you are breaking the commandments of God
What Jew did not break a commandment? Again, keeping the commandment, which none of us can do, is for santification NOT justification.

1 Way don't miss out the blessing of the sabbath!

---------------Questions---------------------
Q1)How were OT saints saved?
Q2)Could Abraham lose his salvation if he didn't circumcize?
Q3)Did God bless the sabbath?
Q4)Is the sabbath for the Jews only?
Q5)Out of the ten commandments, which of them do you feel we can break and is not a sin in todays dispensation?
Q6)When David murdered, why then wasn't he put to death?
Q7)When Jonah prophized about the destruction of Nevenah, and it didn't happen, wasn't he a false prophet? Why wasn't he put to death?
Q8)Isn't this verse about the future?
Q9)Does it only apply to Jews?
 

1Way

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Nimrod – 1 of 2
You said
I completely disagree about salvation. Breaking the sabbath today is not eternal damnation. You won't lose your salvation if you break the sabbath. No one is/was saved by observing the Law. This is a problem with dispensationalist, they think that the Jews were saved differently than the NT believers.
You state this completely backwards and in so many ways.

I did not say that “today” you will go to hell if you break the Sabbath.

According to God, if you broke the Sabbath as mentioned by the reference I already gave you, that person went to hell, so your wrong, braking the Sabbath could send to you hell, but not necessarily in every case.

God said to keep His law or be cut off from Him. How much more simple can it be? His commandments (=the law) were not superfluous, it was the way of salvation, and it includes loving and trusting (=faith) in God alone. It was faith plus works, not just works, and not just faith, you had to have them both! So if anyone argues about not being saved by doing just the works of the law, they are right, but if anyone did all of the works of the law, then they would have loved and believed God also, so faith and works are commanded by the law, you need them both.

This is the problem with non-dispensationalists, they mix together what God keeps separate.

Gen 15:6 is right and you understand it wrong. Abram is the father of TWO different groups of believers because he received the promise before being circumcised.

Ex 31:14 and the circumcision requirements can not nullify other scripture and the passage I gave you where the man died in his guilt for breaking the Sabbath, at God’s command, being “completely” cut off, i.e. no longer part of God’s people.

Circumcision was a covenant relationship between God and man, to be part of God’s accepted covenant people, you had to be circumcised, it was not an option, it was a requirement. God nearly went about to kill either Moses or his son (I think He was after Moses) because he had not yet circumcised his child! So I have only consistent biblical basis for maintaining that the law keepers had to keep the law or risk their own life and salvation.

Abraham was righteous before being circumcised, so what? Paul was saved by grace through faith alone yet was water baptized, so what? God gave Paul progressive revelation about salvation even though when he was first saved he would have taught a salvation by keeping the law. God saves ignorant people and people who believe wrong things all the time. As for Abraham, you seem to not appreciate the brilliance of God making Abram the father of two different groups of believers, because this difference in when he was accounted for righteousness is why he is a good example for being the father of two (different) groups, so naturally we find that he can righteously be identified with both groups, but that in no way makes your point that therefore everyone under the law was saved the same way we are today who are “not” under the law and they were under the law.

Q2 – Yes, Abraham could have lost his salvation and life by braking the law, just like Moses almost did.

Q3 – Yes
Q4 – Yes, it’s for the Jews and proselyte Jews, i.e. those who were under the law, those of the circumcision, those who were God’s chosen and elect people/nation. Not for those who are in the body of Christ, Jewish or non-Jewish. As God through Paul said, were you called while circumcised, or uncircumcised, ok, then remain that way, the group you belonged to while you were called to salvation, that was where God drew the line of separation for starting the body of Christ. If you were already under the law and circumcision, then you were supposed to stay that way, while the new group of believers were to replace the previous group until God is done with this group and start back again with the circumcision “group” again.

You said
Summary: The sabbath was in effect before the LAW and before the Jews, therefore it is/was not just for the Jews.
Like God said, do not add nor subtract from His commandments, so you have no standing to invalidate what God said is commanded. God commanded that braking the Sabbath can be a matter of life and death and in the case of that man picking up sticks, the passage you seem afraid of, that was a picture of damnation because of him braking the Sabbath.

God changes things a lot, He seems found of appropriate change. Murder is a absolute moral wrong, yet, God reversed His commandment about what should happen to a murderer. Only God has the right to alter His commandments, you do not have that right.

Q5 Your question’s presuppositions are conflicting. God does not impute sin on the saved, so if you are talking about salvation, then you can brake them all and not sin, if you are talking otherwise, then you can brake none of God’s in force commandments and not sin. Do you think that practicing Jews are wrong for no longer doing the sacrifices since Jesus fulfilled that? Point is that some of the law has been fulfilled in Christ (a tremendous change) and so I do not pick and choose which one’s to obey and which not to obey, you are the one who does that since you claim to be a law keeper, not me. I do not keep the law of God, except for those God has placed us in the body of Christ under.

Continued next post...
 
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1Way

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Nimrod – 2 of 2

Q6 – Because God has the right to intervene in human affairs and do what man does not have the right to do, like forgive a murder and an adulterer.

Q7 – No, sorry, but I have to say, that seems really dumb to me. Or do you think that God’s word was in error when God said that Jonah did as God told him to do and say? Being a false prophet, means, you spoke falsely on behalf of God. I mean, that is one simple concept. Who knows, maybe you will be able to stand corrected on this mammoth and technically confounding issue. (LOL)

There is NO indication that Jonah was lying :eek: or otherwise falsifying God’s message. :dunce:

God told them to kill the man. So what is your (non) point? The story is presented such as for all to see understand the reason he was put to death. It was an example of the immediately proceeding teaching where God speaks of a person who willfully defiles the Sabboth will be surely put to death, being “completely cut off” and his guilt remaining upon him. The text gives no indication that the man was a special case exception like David was for example.

Q8 Yes and no, when it was first given, it was about the near future, like within the life spans of those Jesus was talking to, no, in terms of the fact that God changed His plans of dealing with national Israel due to their continued national unbelief. So He postponed their earthly Davidic Kingdom until He is done with us. If God had not postponed everything as He did, then that Sabbath teaching would have been for way back then.

Q9 I already answered this. Yes, it is only for those under the law for righteous faith in God.

You said
What Jew did not break a commandment? Again, keeping the commandment, which none of us can do, is for santification NOT justification.
I’m thinking :dunce: again. Your saying that God, who is wise and reasonable, commanded man to do what man can not do.
:confused: God gave the law so that they may live (forever with God) and be in a righteous relationship with God (=salvation). The commandments of God were serious life and death, salvation and damnation issues, they were not optional or insincere.

God never said, you either have to keep all of my laws perfectly without breaking any of them, or you will go to hell. That is pure fictional nonsense. God commanded that you keep his law with all your strength and mind and soul. And in God’s word, there are examples of godly men doing just that. It is not an impossible task to obey what God commands us to obey.

Also, God provided a way for forgiveness if (and often when) they sinned. So keeping the law had correction for human error built in.

And what about all the problems of inter-conflicting laws, doesn’t that also demonstrate that God never really meant for man to keep them all? No, God expected man to use his brain and trust in the goodness and righteousness of God and that when some commands came into conflict and contradiction, you were not held responsible for that problem. God created that problem, not man. And all of human history and God’s word demonstrates that under such conflicting circumstances, the law keeper was just fine. The rule of thumb seems to be that which ever was a positive command generally outweighed a negative one, and which ever command was more important or weightier should supercede a less one, but never to do away with any laws as optional.

You have a point about the various aspects of the law making it such that man could not always and perfectly keep the law, but you can not take that grace any further than God allows. I mean, how can you repeat a command of God that ends in,

if you don’t do this, you shall surely be put to death,

and then think that you could willingly break that command and remain in good standing with God.

Please directly answer what I have brought before you for consideration, especially the man picking up sticks. A positive teaching usurps an implied one. We know that man was in eternal jeopardy, all indications are that he went to hell. If you can not somehow undo that teaching, then it stands and you are found at odds with God’s word. Also, you forgot to deal with Jesus’ teaching, as well as Paul’s, that if you are under the law i.e. a “law keeper”, then you are bound to keep the whole law, you do not have the standing to decide which laws you prefer to keep.

That was funny, why wasn't Jonah put to death... Because he obeyed God and was not a false prophet,,, ??? What broke your thinking on that one?
 

1Way

+OL remote satellite affiliate
Nimrod – Here’s an issue I forgot to raise. You probably know the word I am searching for, it’s when a person projects into the past some more recent idea or teaching that does not fit the previous time frame. Is it isogesis (spelling is way off)? Or something like that? Not that you are necessarily doing that, but I do wonder. :think: If you would be so helpful, would you please point out what you believe to be the gospel unto salvation for the OT saints starting from anywhere after God made His covenant relationship with Israel. I realize that the verbiage is different between the OT and the NT, but that is exactly at the point. ;) God said, keep my commandments that you may live ... , and I don’t think that was about physical life.

Also, you must treat Jesus’ words in the gospels about the gospel message in a strange way than how I treat them. Consider
Mt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one [is] good but One, [that is], God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Eze 20:11 "And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, ‘which, [if] a man does, he shall live by them.’

Lu 10:25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" 27 So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" 28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

Le 18:5 ‘You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them : I [am] the LORD.
Interesting isn’t is how even specific words can have profound significance. I find it interesting that Jesus did not mutually comply with the young ruler’s specific words “eternal life”, but instead Jesus gave the equivalent saying “enter into life”, or “you will live”. It is refreshing to see God being so faithful to His word.

Jesus did not come teaching a new way of salvation, He taught and did not overturn the OT teachings. Jesus Christ taught without hesitation nor inconsistency that “keeping the law” was the gospel requirement of salvation (In the previous dispensation). So how do you understand all that?

Looking forward to your response.
 
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Nimrod

New member
Re: Oh, realy, you draw the line, ,,, there

Re: Oh, realy, you draw the line, ,,, there

Originally posted by 1Way

Nu 15:30 ‘But the person who does [anything] presumptuously, [whether he is] native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 ‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’" 32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. ...
35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

The problem is that a man was deliberately and flagrantly gather sticks in the open on the Sabbath day when God had commanded that no work be done on the Sabbath. This man was most likely the first to break the commandment, so Moses asked God what should the penality be. "Death"! This is to show the importance of keeping the sabbath. We no longer do the death penality for breaking the sabbath, but the importance remains that we should keep sabbath. It would be a sin to break the sabbath.

I still disagree that the man is sent to hell for breaking the sabbath. I do believe that the OT saint were saved by faith, and could not lose their salvation once they received it.


Did this answer your question about Numbers 15?
 

Nimrod

New member
Thank you 1 Way for answering my questions. Lets take a look at your answers. Only the first 5 in this post.

Q1)How were OT saints saved?
A1)It was faith plus works

Q2)Could Abraham lose his salvation if he didn't circumcize?
A2)Yes

Q3)Did God bless the sabbath?
A3)Yes

Q4)Is the sabbath for the Jews only?
A4)Yes, it’s for the Jews and proselyte Jews

Q5)Out of the ten commandments, which of them do you feel we can break and is not a sin in todays dispensation?
A5) if you are talking about salvation, then you can brake them all and not sin, if you are talking otherwise, then you can brake none of God’s in force commandments and not sin.



Originally posted by 1Way
According to God, if you broke the Sabbath as mentioned by the reference I already gave you, that person went to hell,

Now 1Way you have told me not to "add" to God's word but nowhere does it state that the person went to hell. Do a concordance search though the Bible on "cut off". Since we both have different views on this, I really don't want to discuss it anymore. I hold that the OT saints were saved by faith. And any works of the Law that they disobeyed was a sin but not eternal hell. You hold that is was faith+plus work. I hear this from Mormons and Catholics, but not Christians, until today. Thank you for being honest in your belief.


Originally posted by 1Way
Yes, Abraham could have lost his salvation and life by braking the law, just like Moses almost did.

Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

It wasn't Abrahams works, but his faith that saved him.

Romans 4:9-10 "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. "

Notice 1 Way that it by faith only that came righteousness, not faith plus works.


Q5)Out of the ten commandments, which of them do you feel we can break and is not a sin in todays dispensation?
A5)
Originally posted by 1Way
God does not impute sin on the saved, so if you are talking about salvation, then you can brake them all and not sin, if you are talking otherwise, then you can brake none of God’s in force[\b] commandments and not sin.


I haven't asked any questions so far, but this statment of your is confusing, could you please clarify what you mean.

Qa1) What are God's in force commandments? Out of the 10
commandments which ones are no longer in force?
Qa2) Are you saying I can break any sin and still be saved. (I think that is what you meant)
Qa3) What do you mean by "if you are talking otherwise"? Otherwise to what?

Ok 3 questions. I need more time to reply to all your statements. somewhat busy right now.

God Bless
 

1Way

+OL remote satellite affiliate
Nimrod – You’r 96th post was certainly consistent with your views, but it did not barely even approach my question as it relates to my presentation to you on that issue. So no, that does not satisfy our ongoing discussion on that issue. Here is what I said about it, please respond. I’ll place little colorfull highlights where I’d like your specific response if you don’t mind. Notably, I formatted in highlights various aspects of this passaged, and in your response, you seem to indicate that you barely considered but one issue. If you do not voluntarily cover this passage sufficiently on your own, we can go there step by step together. Either way is fine with me.
Nimrod – Sozo and Turbo are right, the level of incongruity concerning your adherence to keeping God’s commandments (from the previous dispensation) is pretty bizarre. (1a) God, not you, God drew the line at,

(1b) You shall not add to, or take away from His word and commandements.

(2) And if you break my Sabbath, you are subject to the death penalty.

The issue of keeping the Sabbath the way God said it must be kept, was a matter of life and death, salvation and eternal damnation.
Nu 15:30 ‘But the person who does [anything] presumptuously, [whether he is] native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 ‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’" 32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. ...
35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.
.. (3) Maybe you see this teaching as somehow being wrong? (4a) Man does not have the standing to pick and choose which commandments to keep or modify.

(4b) Even Jesus in the NT said that you do not have the standing to pick and choose which commandments you will observe and keep, you must keep them all, “the greater and the lesser”.

Yes, the commandments were many and sometimes conflicted, and yes God had mercy for those who could not help but to brake one commandment in order to keep another, (5a) but you are not saying that, are you? (5b) You are altering the commandment to fit your lifestyle, perhaps like that guy picking up sticks thought, like it’s no big deal, it’s not that important, I’ll just pick up some smaller sticks and not heavier logs which might draw more attention.

(6) If you are not living like a full blown law keeping Jew, then you are breaking the commandments of God, ...

(7) God was “not” merciful on the man who willfully broke the Sabbath in the desert by picking up sticks. (7) So, by what authority do you overturn the commandments of God? (7) What makes you think you should be exempt from keeping the entire law the way God said you must obey?
And it’s not just about work on the Sabbath, off hand I don’t know how many commandments of God there are surrounding the Sabboth, but I assume there are many, certainly over a dozen, probably dozens. For instance, as Turbo earlier alluded to, and you did not quite address, do you observe the Sabboth “when” God commanded it to be observed, i.e. Saturday not Sunday? Or what is it more exactly, Friday night to Saturday night (???). Do you walk or travel beyond the distance that is allowed by God? Etc.
 

1Way

+OL remote satellite affiliate
Nimrod – You said
Now 1Way you have told me not to "add" to God's word but nowhere does it state that the person went to hell.
Context, not words hold the clearest more authoritative meaning possible. Like I already demonstrated for you, and maybe you have not learned yet, even the terms for salvation in the OT, especially in terms of expressing the gospel for salvation was a different set of expressions. Same with not being saved and many other issues.

I offer you now three times Nu 15 as sufficient evidence that God held obedience to His commandments for salvation. I agree that man can commit a terrible sin and still be saved, and I guess if I was pressed sharply on this issue, I could not say with absolute certainty that he had to go to hell since God let some folks live who should have been put to death for example, so I am not absolutely sure that that particular man went to hell. But, I am sure that God’s teaching on this issue indicates pretty clearly that you could loose your life and your salvation, or said another way, loose your life and not be saved.

Next you said
Do a concordance search though the Bible on "cut off". (1) Since we both have different views on this, I really don't want to discuss it anymore. I hold that the OT saints were saved by faith. And any works of the Law that they disobeyed was a sin but not eternal hell. (2) You hold that is was faith+plus work. I hear this from Mormons and Catholics, but not Christians, until today. Thank you for being honest in your belief.

(1) Actually, that was the reason we both decided to discuss this issue, not because we agreed, but because we disagreed, and I thought it was you who honestly said, “I am curious about what you believe ...” No problem, many people get uncomfortable when others in the body of Christ seek inter-personal accountability for the sake of bible conformity verses manmade tradition. No one is forcing you to continue.

(2) Not accurate. They mix everything together, the previous way that God governed man, and the new current way. Many if not most cultic beliefs have sprung from confusing law and grace, circumcision and uncircumcision groups and dispensational teachings. The mormons and the Chatholics are cults in my view. As to your implied however loose association you infer between us and the cults, we do not have like beliefs, so your mishandling my beliefs is not appreciated.

You said
It wasn't Abrahams works, but his faith that saved him.
I know that, and I already answered all that which you totally avoided. Again, God did something different with him and with Paul, much like forgiving David, God has the right to make exceptions to His dealings with man. So again, like I already argued and you ignored, your passages do not overturn what God has established, only God has the right to make such exceptions, not you.

But you do continue this point by saying
Notice 1 Way that it by faith only that came righteousness, not faith plus works.
I agree with this scripture, but disagree with you. I’m not saying that God counted keeping the law as a work and not as faith, I’m saying that God required keeping the law as man’s way of displaying his faith. So like I said, faith and works were both an issue of faith, you could never earn your salvation by doing works, but if God required that in order to be a part of His people that you had to keep the law, then God had that right to do that, and in fact that is exactly what He did. Also, you left out the other HALF of that teaching! He was accounted for righteousness for the sake of the circumcision while circumcised and that righteous accounting was because of works of obedience to God’s commandment. (!!!)

You said
I haven't asked any questions so far, but this statment of your is confusing, could you please clarify what you mean.
Oh, that’s nice, you asked of me to look up all the occurrences of “cut off” (BRB) in the OT, and I ask of you to consider impute(d) sin, and it’s 186 to 2. Chuckles Pretty steep odds I’d say. ;) Oh, I forgot, my concordance is computerized and yours is probably paper, mine is dynamic and terribly functional, but yours is probably linear and very limited in functionality especially when it comes to more than single word searches. I highly suggest you spend anywhere from zero to $40 and be able to find what you are looking for. My free OLB lets me even do searches of a word where the second word is user selectable in terms of how many verses away it may be found. I can search for original words and strongs numbers and various translations and reference works, and even search numerous translations at once. :thumb:

You apparently are not familiar with grace teachings or if you were, you would never had asked that question. We who are not under the law, are presented to God blameless, we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ because the law was nailed to the cross on our behalf. God does not impute sin to Jesus, nor does He imput sin to us who are in Jesus. Just as the widow is no longer bound to the law to not marry another because of death, she is free to marry another and no one can say she is sinning because there is no law that binds (is in force against) her.

All these and more from God’s rusty word, opps, glorious word, rusty :chuckle: in your case. ;)

You said
Qa1) What are God's in force commandments? Out of the 10
commandments which ones are no longer in force?
Qa2) Are you saying I can break any sin and still be saved. (I think that is what you meant)
Qa3) What do you mean by "if you are talking otherwise"? Otherwise to what?

Qa1) Like I said, all of them if you are talking about salvation. Otherwise we are only under the in force commandments of God for this dispensation, generally, we do not look to the old dead law to consider sin once we are saved, we are not law keepers, we are in Christ, we walk according to the spirit, we have the mind of Christ, we obey the commandments that God has given us which supercede the laws that we are no longer under.

Qa2) Yes, our great salvation is not what Jesus did plus, it’s by Christ’s work alone.

Qa3) Otherwise from the consideration of salvation, meaning every other consideration. For example. Although saved, we can and do sin, even though God does not count it as sin against us for the sake of salvation, we are without sin. But in all other ways of considering our moral behavior, if and when we do what is a otherwise called a sin, we hurt ourselves and/or we hurt others, and we always hurt/offend God. God does not want us to be carnal and sinful, He wants to bless us and be pleased with us, so because we want to bless God and love and honor God, we should want to please Him and not oppose Him.

Also, when we get to heaven, there will be eternal rewards to deal with. I mostly believe that this has to do with people and relationships and how we lived a life for God or against Him. Such that of course, any and all sins that we do even while saved will count against us and not for us. Here is God’s word on that.
(1Co 3:11-16 NKJV)
“11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation [with] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on [it] endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?”
So the same basic morality exists in both dispensations, it’s always wrong to murder and do evil, but our salvation is not of works, yet theirs used to be a faith that required works to be included, keeping the law was not optional to be included in God’s people (=salvation).

You said
I need more time to reply to all your statements. somewhat busy right now.
LOL, no problem. We all have our rough edges but overall you seem like a sharp character. Also your way more concise than I am, which goads me well. Take it light and do what you can do. I’m currently enjoying a brief interlude of exceptional posting freedom because of being unemployed. But that is another story.
 

Nimrod

New member
Hello there 1Way. As you can see every post I send, I have two more to answer. I can't continue like this because it is mathematically impossible. Therefore we will stick to one topic and finish it then move to the next. From reading your last posts, you really want to stay with the Number 15:30, you think you have something on me, but really it is just a disagreement, so lets there until you are satisified. There is so many things I would like to spend time on. Like why Jonah could be considered a false prophet, the faith of Abraham etc.

So here is another feable attempt to answer your questions.

You said
(1a) God, not you, God drew the line at,

Yes, that is why we live by His Word.
2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

You said
(1b) You shall not add to, or take away from His word and commandements.

Yes I agree.
Deut 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

You said
(2) And if you break my Sabbath, you are subject to the death penalty.

Yes I agree
Exodus 31:14 "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people."

You said
The issue of keeping the Sabbath the way God said it must be kept, was a matter of life and death, salvation and eternal damnation.

I disagree about losing salvation and eternal damnation.

But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. 32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

a)he has despised the word of the LORD
b)that soul shall be cut off from among his people

Well the man died alright. I just don't see how this man became eternally condemned.


You said
(3) Maybe you see this teaching as somehow being wrong?

No I don't

You said
(4a) Man does not have the standing to pick and choose which commandments to keep or modify.

That is correct
Duet 5:32 "Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left."

You said
(4b) Even Jesus in the NT said that you do not have the standing to pick and choose which commandments you will observe and keep, you must keep them all, “the greater and the lesser”.

I am sorry, I don't have "the greater and the lesser" as a quote in my Bible.
Qb1)Which verse are you referring to?

You said
Yes, the commandments were many and sometimes conflicted, and yes God had mercy for those who could not help but to brake one commandment in order to keep another,


Qb2)Could you please provide examples for this statement? Thanks.

You said
(5a) but you are not saying that, are you?

I don't know. Am I?

You said
(5b) You are altering the commandment to fit your lifestyle, perhaps like that guy picking up sticks thought, like it’s no big deal, it’s not that important, I’ll just pick up some smaller sticks and not heavier logs which might draw more attention.

Picking up sticks on the Sabbath is a sin. I believe God is stating that we are not to WORK on the sabbath. During that time picking up sticks was considered working. Moses asked God what he should do. And you agreeed that God gets to choose when to be merciful and He wasn't on this issue. God was not merciful to this man, so I say don't work on the sabbath.

You said
(6) If you are not living like a full blown law keeping Jew, then you are breaking the commandments of God, ...

I do not live like a full blown Jew, some of the Jewish laws are not needed anymore. For example the sacrifical law. But you are correct that I do break the commandments of God.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Even though I am saved (OSAS). I still sin, it is impossible for me to live a sinless life here during this lifetime. So yes I do break the Sabbath and in doing so I commit a sin.

You said
(7) God was “not” merciful on the man who willfully broke the Sabbath in the desert by picking up sticks.

No He was not. I beleive He was showing Israel how important to follow His commands.

You said
(7) So, by what authority do you overturn the commandments of God?

I don't.

You said
(7) What makes you think you should be exempt from keeping the entire law the way God said you must obey?

Keeping the Law or doing the best you can is for Santification, not Justification. No one is righteous for keeping the Law.
Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

This is why I delight in the law of the LORD...
Psalms 1:2-3 "But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper."

Shall we make the Law void because we are saved by grace? I say God forbid
Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

You said
And it’s not just about work on the Sabbath, off hand I don’t know how many commandments of God there are surrounding the Sabboth, but I assume there are many, certainly over a dozen, probably dozens.

I suggest we should check them all out.

You said
For instance, as Turbo earlier alluded to, and you did not quite address, do you observe the Sabboth “when” God commanded it to be observed, i.e. Saturday not Sunday?Or what is it more exactly, Friday night to Saturday night (???).

Qb3) When did God command the Sabbath to be on Saturday and Sunday? References in the Bible would be nice.

You said
Do you walk or travel beyond the distance that is allowed by God? Etc.

I am afraid to say that I am sure I have. Good point, I'll be more careful next time.
John 8:11 "And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

Praise God!

Now to part 2

You said speaking about understanding Scriptures
Context, not words hold the clearest more authoritative meaning possible.

I am glad to hear that from you 1Way, all too often I hear dispensationalist say that they "interpret scripture LITERALLY except when absurb". We are making progress!!!

You said
I offer you now three times Nu 15 as sufficient evidence that God held obedience to His commandments for salvation.

No I am afraid you did not, you have not shown me. Yes God wants obedience to His Law but it is not for salvation. Here we disagree and we can agree on disagreeing. No need to get angry, we are two Christians discussing an issue.

You said referring to the man picking up the sticks, and now you are not absolutely sure he went to hell. Earlier you said Numbers 15 has sufficient evidence that God held obedience to His commandments for salvation. 1Way take a look at this, it's not consistent.
so I am not absolutely sure that that particular man went to hell. But, I am sure that God’s teaching on this issue indicates pretty clearly that you couldloose your life and your salvation, or said another way, loose your life and not be saved.
Now you changed from absolutely to "could".

OK, we are disagreeing on this. You feel strongly that the Word makes it clear that you can/could lose your salvation. You have stated your point.

I said
(2) You hold that is was faith+plus work. I hear this from Mormons and Catholics

Your reply
The mormons and the Catholics are cults in my view. As to your implied however loose association you infer between us and the cults, we do not have like beliefs, so your mishandling my beliefs is not appreciated.

I never called your system a cult, all I said that the "faith+works" issue is found in Roman Catholicism and Mormonism. That was the only similiarity I drew. I am sorry for making similiarites between false religions and your system. I'll refrain.


I said
It wasn't Abrahams works, but his faith that saved him.

You said
I know that, and I already answered all that which you totally avoided.

Actually you said it was faith+works
Q2 - Yes, Abraham could have lost his salvation and life by breaking the law, just like Moses almost did.
TO me this statment says, Abraham can lose his salvation if he does no "work"(circumcision). So Abraham, to you, was saved by faith+works yet the Word of God said it was by His faith, then your reply is that God made an exception for Abraham therefore making His salvation by faith alone. IN summary Abraham being the father of two people, was saved by faith, or faith+works. God decides and has the right to make exceptions.

As you can see I am having a hard time understanding your position.
Qb2) Does the Scriptures say that Abraham was saved by faith?
Qb3) Does the Scriptures say that Abraham was saved by faith+works?


You said
I’m saying that God required keeping the law as man’s way of displaying his faith. So like I said, faith and works were both an issue of faith, you could never earn your salvation by doing works, but if God required that in order to be a part of His people that you had to keep the law, then God had that right to do that, and in fact that is exactly what He did.

So God defined faith of Abraham as "faith+works". Interesting.


I said
Qa1) What are God's in force commandments? Out of the 10
commandments which ones are no longer in force?

You answered
Qa1) Like I said, all of them if you are talking about salvation. Otherwise we are only under the in force commandments of God for this dispensation, generally, we do not look to the old dead law to consider sin once we are saved, we are not law keepers, we are in Christ, we walk according to the spirit, we have the mind of Christ, we obey the commandments that God has given us which supercede the laws that we are no longer under.

I agree that keeping the Law or doing the Law, no one is saved under. But I am not talking about Salvation. I am asking about is it sin to break any of the ten commandments in the current dispensation?

Qb4)Not talking about salvation, of the ten commandments, which one(s) can we break as believers in Christ, saved by Grace, and will not be considered a sin?

Qb5) Which commandment(s) of the ten, does the new superceding commandments of Christ voids?




I said
Qa3) What do you mean by "if you are talking otherwise"? Otherwise to what?

Your answer
Qa3) Otherwise from the consideration of salvation, meaning every other consideration. For example. Although saved, we can and do sin, even though God does not count it as sin against us for the sake of salvation, we are without sin.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
continued....
---------------------------------------
Questions:
Qb1)Which verse are you referring to?(about the "lesser and greater")
Qb2) Does the Scriptures say that Abraham was saved by faith?
Qb3) Does the Scriptures say that Abraham was saved by faith+works?
Qb4) Not talking about salvation, of the ten commandments, which one(s) can we break as believers in Christ->saved by Grace, and will not be considered a sin?
Qb5) Which commandment(s) of the ten, does the new superceding commandments of Christ voids?

God Bless
 
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