ECT The ABCs of the salvation process
- Thread starter ZacharyB
- Start date
Interplanner
Well-known member
Heir,
even how you said it here is a bit muddled.
We don't want it to sound like we have faith in faith, and we don't want it to sound like the only way we know this is true is 'by believing.'
Here's what you want: Christ is our righteousness before God. This is as true historically as is WW2 or any other event you can think of as historic fact. Being historic fact, it alters everything downstream from it.
I believe you have yet to even try to
explain the many dozens of dire warnings
to the believer in the Gospels and epistles!
You really should do this before
heaving rocks at God's anointed.
Cross Reference
New member
Redemption is the ONE historical fact. Redemeption is NOT salvation nor is it the righteousness of Jesus Christ but what His righteousness provided us with. I.e., By the atonement by faith, the means to come directly into the presence of God.
How can anyone be such an idiot?
I have shown you many times that Paul was
writing ONLY to the "faithful" saints in Ephesus.
This epistle (and ditto for Colossians)
does not apply to the unfaithful ...
who are the only ones I'm concerned about.
Yes, at the time of initially being saved.
Do you wish to see again the 8 verses which
say our righteousness must be maintained?
The NT teaches salvation is a process.
The NT teaches salvation may be forfeited,
walked away from, fallen back from, lost.
Why am I not surprised at you lack of understanding. (Rhetorical)
Cross Reference
New member
Defective minds seldom get surprised.
heir
TOL Subscriber
I'm not Hebrew and neither are you. Grace is defined by God though Paul to us in a King James Bible as being no more of works and the gift of God.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
...
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Simple stuff! Do you understand (2 Timothy 2:7 KJV)?
heir
TOL Subscriber
Study (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV)
heir
TOL Subscriber
Why would you not want to have faith in His faith?
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
...
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
heir
TOL Subscriber
You have yet to explain why you take that which is written TO Israel and apply it TO yourself when all of the Bible is not written TO you.
You really should not call yourself God's anointed when it's clear you are heeding seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Is that all you have?
Ephesians and Colossians are both written to Gentiles such as we: Gentiles that had no hope or promise unless God had a mystery! PTL! He did!
Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
...
Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
heir
TOL Subscriber
There are two groups in the "NT" with different gospels, marching orders and inheritances. To lump them all together is the cause of your confusion. You must 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV!
Cross Reference
New member
I have and do. My conclusions make sense. Your's don't. You ignore/disregard this passge to your own destructive end. Study this:
"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace"
Ephesians 2:15 (KJV)
heir
TOL Subscriber
Ooh! I have and it's one of my favorite topics! If you care to discuss it, open a thread on it! I'll make you see what it is (Ephesians 3:9 KJV)!
marhig
Well-known member
There's only one gospel not two. Paul preached it to the gentiles and James to the Jews. But you're confusing what I mean by works. Nothing we do saves us. We are filthy rags in the sight of the lord. What Paul means about works is that we can go around helping People for our own gain and praise and never think of God. These are our works to suit us, we can look good and godly on the outside but be dead to God within. Like those pharasees at the time of Jesus, seeking the praise of men and not of God.
The works James is speaking about are the works done because we are being saved by the indwelling spirit in our hearts, he is changing us from within and guiding us, and we should be doing the works of God for God to glorify him, and not for the glory of any man or any benefit or praise to ourselves. That's what James means when he says I'll show you my faith by my works. because you will see the works of God through him because he is faithful.
We are to remain humble. God can't live in a proud selfish heart.
We are forgiven of our past sins when we repent. We are then saved daily once we have the indwelling spirit of God in our hearts if we remain faithful and obey God. We don't deserve salvation because we are sinners, but we are blessed by God through Jesus Christ we must go to God through him he is our mediator and saviour, we are saved through him and through faith by the grace of God.
When Jesus said the the woman, your sins are forgiven, he didn't say, including your future sins. He said go sin no more. He forgave her past sins.
When we repent and turn to God, we are forgiven of our past sins. We are to go and sin no more. We aren't once saved always saved. It doesn't say in the Bible that all your future sins are automatically forgiven. In fact we pray every day in the lords prayer for forgiveness of sins AS we forgive others who sin against us. Why do we need to pray about to this to God if all future sins are forgiven? We are asking to be forgiven of our sins every day!
Paul clearly said, that if we wilfully sin then there is no more sacrifice for sins.
We all sin, but when we realise it we should repent, but we should be turning away from wilful sinning, or else we could be in danger of Jesus turning round and saying, depart from me, I never knew you, you workers of iniquity.
There is no such thing as once saved always saved. We are saved by the grace of God through faith. I notice that the words through faith keep being left out. I keep seeing saved by grace, but people omit through faith.
Jesus didn't say to the woman caught in adultery that she was saved by Grace. He said he faith had saved her.
We saved through faith by the grace (favour)of God and it's only through Jesus, he is our saviour and God wants to see his son in us, he wants the life of Christ in us. God doesn't want to see our flesh, he wants our flesh dead, like Paul says I die daily, we too must be dying daily (our fleshly life put to death by the spirit) but be alive in God and raised with Christ. So that his light shines through us in this world of darkness, and we bring Christ to others when we deny ourselves and obey God doing his will.
We don't deserve his favour (grace) but when we turn to him and believe in him through his beloved son Jesus Christ, and deny ourselves and take up our crosses and follow him, then through him God pours his spirit into our hearts and we are then being saved from Satan daily, IF we remain faithful.
God is love, and those who belong to him will be bringing his love and his word to those they meet and those in need everyday. He will be changing our hearts by his spirit, cleaning us daily, and we will be in the likeness of his precious son Jesus Christ. We will have put off the old man as put on the new(which is Christ) and we will be born anew by the spirit. Our old life will be past and we will be walking in the light. Being a temple not made by the hand of man. But by the hand of God. And he will dwell in our hearts and the spirit of Christ will strengthen us and help us to overcome the world.
Cross Reference
New member
"A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief". Isaiah 53:3.
"We are not acquainted with grief in the way in which Our Lord was acquainted with it; we endure it, we get through it, but we do not become intimate with it. At the beginning of life we do not reconcile ourselves to the fact of sin. We take a rational view of life and say that a man by controlling his instincts, and by educating himself, can produce a life which will slowly evolve into the life of God. But as we go on, we find the presence of something which we have not taken into consideration, viz., sin, and it upsets all our calculations. Sin has made the basis of things wild and not rational. We have to recognize that sin is a fact, not a defect; sin is red-handed mutiny against God. Either God or sin must die in my life. The New Testament brings us right down to this one issue. If sin rules in me, God’s life in me will be killed; if God rules in me, sin in me will be killed. There is no possible ultimate but that. The climax of sin is that it crucified Jesus Christ, and what was true in the history of God on earth will be true in your history and in mine. In our mental outlook we have to reconcile ourselves to the fact of sin as the only explanation as to why Jesus Christ came, and the explanation of the grief and sorrow in life."
Ponder all that before presumptuously offering yourself as a "know-it-all".
Most people ignore/disregard many passages they don't like!
I have reconciled all of the NT passages together so they support each other.
This is what the NT Scriptures teach us ...
True saving belief-faith is proven when one's love for God is shown by
his obedience, practicing righteousness, passing various tests of faith
... with all of this enduring until the end of life.
This is simply man's co-operative part in his salvation in God's new covenant.
Each of the points above are supported by approx. 10 NT verses.
And according to NT Scripture ...
people who TEACH false doctrines indeed do have a destructive end.
But, of course, sincere repentance can change all of that.
Cross Reference
New member
This I would say is insufficient and would change the requirment to be this:
"True saving belief-faith is proven when one's love TO God" "To" shows action involved and not something of mere confession; somethng I carry in my back pocket. This passage explains it on our level:
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we he spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. '
1 John 4:1-21 (KJV)