Taking Back Astronomy

[Granite]

Absolutely false. Astrology is Satan's perversion of the truth. The truth happens to be, that the zodiac was created by God, and that it tells the story of the Redeemer of mankind.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Hang on, hang on...

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Wow, that made my day...

 

[spaz]

Wasn't it astrology that told the wise men to find Jesus in bethlehan

 

[chair]

Wasn't it astrology that told the wise men to find Jesus in bethlehan

Just showing that the 'Bible' is full of silly superstitions.

 

[bob b]

Wasn't it astrology that told the wise men to find Jesus in bethlehan

Not exactly. It is believed by many that the wise men were essentially Chaldean astronomers who followed the events seen in the skies and hence were impressed by the planetary conjunctions and other planetary motions which were unusual during the months leading up to the birth of the Messiah.

I once worked closely with a TV talk show host on a project related to the Star of Bethlehem. We used a commercial software package which allowed us to develop a simulation of what the planets and stars looked like as seen from the Middle East around 4BC. The computer screen simulation motions were captured on video tape with the TV studio camera and integrated into a TV show broadcast during the Christmas season.

As a result of this experience, plus addition research, I became convinced that the usual date for Christ's birth was off by several years as well as being in the wrong month. The wise men arrived months after the birth, which had occurred at the start of the Jewish New Year (August as I recall).

The events which triggered the trek of the wise men were a conjunction of the planet Jupiter with Regulus in August and a 2nd conjunction (as Jupiter travelled backwards in the sky) around Christmas.

Others have also analyzed this and come to similar conclusions. I will post the link if I can find it on my computer.

BTW, I believe that the video tape I mentioned is available for sale on the kgov website, although the actual show ran long and some of the neat simulations of the planets hop skipping around in the sky (speeded up of course) were edited out of the final cut.

http://sciastro.net/portia/articles/thestar.htm

 

[Johnny]

Interesting. I have no problem with them being astrologers, and I think it's entirely likely given that they were so inclined to follow the star. This seems to indicate that they felt the stars were either impacted or had an impact on earthly matters--in line with astrological thinking.

 

[B1sh0p]

It was never yours to take. Its been in the traditions of every culture on the planet. Christians cant lay claim to astrology as something that was theirs and now isn't. It wasn't yours to begin with, the Hebrews maybe, but their understanding of the heavens was very limited at the time when other cultures had already mapped the stars and were predicting comets.

Will this help anyone?

as·trol·o·gy n.
1. The study of the positions and aspects of celestial bodies in the belief that they have an influence on the course of natural earthly occurrences and human affairs.
[Middle English astrologie, from Old French, from Latin astrologia, from Greek astrologiā : astro-, astro- + -logiā, -logy.]

as·tron·o·my n., pl. -mies.
1. The scientific study of matter in outer space, especially the positions, dimensions, distribution, motion, composition, energy, and evolution of celestial bodies and phenomena.
2. A system of knowledge or beliefs about celestial phenomena: the various astronomies of ancient civilizations.
[Middle English astronomie, from Old French, from Latin astronomia, from Greek astronomiā : astro-, astro- + -nomiā, -nomy.]

I think the wisemen were astronomers who were simply following God/the Bible in a unique instance and not looking for revelation or life guidance apart from God. Also why do liberals/atheist/evolutionists attack Jewish traditions rooted in the OT. Why so anti-semitic? I dont' see anyone attacking the Koran with the same passion, and muslims can take their 'word' quite literally as well. American Christians didn't create the OT why keep slamming its truths? The creation story is just as much a part of Jewish tradition as it is Christianity. Just asking.

 

[MindonFire]

Speaking of Is. 40:22

Isaiah 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

 

[MindonFire]

Some of it has been confirmed. Some of it has been disproved.



That's all great, except for...
1) The flat-earth model of ancient Mesopotamia involved a circular disc floating in the ocean. So "circle of the earth" is quite likely a reference to that model, not a spherical earth.
2) Modern scholarship suggests chs. 40-66 were added later to the book some time after 539 BC.
3) Chs. 40-66 mentions no less than nine time the "ends of the earth," betraying a belief in a flat world by the author.
4) While Pythagorus was the earliest proponent of a spherical earth that we know about today, he wasn't necessarily the first to realize the earth was not flat.

The rest of your post deals with passages to cryptic to draw any conclusions. Certainly none of it improves the case for Biblical inerrancy.

Speaking of Is. 40:22 Chew on this for one moment

Isaiah 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Definition Merriam Webster
Ecliptic : the great circle of the celestial sphere that is the apparent path of the sun among the stars or of the earth as seen from the sun : the plane of the earth's orbit extended to meet the celestial sphere

 

[TheDude]

Sumerian Flood Story http://history-world.org/sumerian_floor_story.htm

After Anu, Enlil, Enki, and Ninhursag
had fashioned the black-headed people,
Vegetation sprang from the earth,
Animals, four-legged creatures of the plain,
Were brought artfully into existence
[37 lines are unreadable]
After the....of kingship had been lowered from heaven
After the exalted crown and the throne of kingship
Had been lowered from heaven,
He perfected the rites and exalted the divine ordinances...
He founded the five cities in pure places,...
Then did Nintu weep like a....
The pure Inanna set up a lament for its people,
Enki took council with himself,
Anu, Enlil, Enki, and Ninhursag....
The gods of heaven and earth uttered the name of Anu and Enlil
Then did Ziusudra, the king, the priest of...,
Build a giant...;
Humbly obedient, reverently he...
Attending daily, constantly he...,
Bringing forth all kinds of dreams, he...,
Uttering the name of heaven and earth, he...[...]
the gods a wall...,
Ziusudra, standing at its side, listened.
"Stand by the wall at my left side...,
By the wall I will say a word to you,
Take my word,
Give ear to my instructions:
By our...a flood will sweep over the cult-centers;
To destroy the seed of mankind...,
Is the decision, the word of the assembly of the gods.
By the word commanded by Anu and Enlil...,
Its kingship, its rule will be put to an end.
[about 40 lines missing]
All the windstorms, exceedingly powerful,
Attacked as one,
At the same time, the flood sweeps over the cult-centers.
After, for seven days,
the flood sweeps over the cult centers.
After, for seven days and seven nights,
The flood had swept over the land,
And the huge boat had been tossed
About by the windstorms on the great waters,
Utu came forth, who sheds light on heaven and earth,
Ziusudra opened a window of the huge boat,
The hero Utu brought his rays into the giant boat.
Ziusudra, the king,
Prostrated himself before Utu.
-----------------------------------------
Utu is the Sun god, equivalent to Akkadian Shamash. The translation above is based on the translation by Poebel in ANET. The text was found in Nippur.
The Sumerians formulated lists of their ancient kings, and gave them extremely long reigns. The time before the flood was said to be a period of 432,000 years. Two kings from after the flood that are listed were Gilgamesh and Tammuz. Legends told about these two kings were so impressive that Tammuz entered the pantheon of Babylon and later became known as Adonis to the Greeks.
Gilgamesh became the hero of the Babylonian epic poem which bears his name, and which also contains an account of the flood. Until recently, these king lists and the names in them were thought to be purely fanciful. But in the 1930's, Sir Leonard Woolley, while excavating a building at Ur on the Ubaid level, found an inscription indicating that the structure had been erected by the son of the founder of the First Dynasty of Ur, a person up till that time regarded as fiction.
Gilgamesh, too, has been found to be a real person, with inscriptions telling of the buildings he built.
The earliest written documents were found in Uruk and are dated to 3100 BC. These texts are not deciphered and perhaps are not decipherable. Fifty to seventy percent of the signs cannot be recognized at all, and so defy analysis.
Those few signs that are recognizable appear to be logographic. There are none that represent syllables. There are no grammatical markers. There are no mood markers. Those handful that can be puzzled out take the form:

5 sheep PN receive.

Therefore, the best guess is that these earliest documents are mostly administrative and economic in nature.
When the signs are examined, they are clearly mostly abstract: that is, they have lost their supposed original pictographic form. This implies that these earliest of known tablets do not represent the first attempts at writing; the nature of the writing on them indicates considerable previous evolution in the writing system. These tablets are simply the earliest that have so far been discovered, nothing more.

Sorry its taken me so long to get back to this. Good news though, I got a job the other day! So thats good. Now on to the rest.

The question I have for you Bob, now that you've posted it, what is your argument? We know that Abraham came from Ur, a city of Sumeria. One of the most advanced cities I might add. We know that the flood story is Sumerian in its origin. We know that Hebrew is a form of Sumerian.

What I say is that at some point, a group of people emigrated from Ur, lets say it was Abraham as the stories tell us. They established themselves and retold the stories from Sumeria. The story as to why they live in the desert, why they no longer live in paradise. Which is what the story of Adam and Eve is. Creation is important in that story, but the real thrust of it is why we no longer dwell in paradise. What happened to the rest of the world, and the basic stories that the Sumerians were telling their children. And like every oral tradition, which is what it would have been, the story changes to fit the times, the people and the place.

So, while you may say that the story in the Bible reads more like a ships manfest then a "story", I see the natural progression of a tale told over hundreds, and thousands of years. We both believe the same story Bob, you just believe the version thats been passed down through the line of Abraham. Its one version of a story that effected the whole planet, it was an event so devistating, it became part of culture itself. A genetic memory if you will. The Biblical view is just one telling on the same story thats been told since the time of the Sumerians. All of them are right, and all of them back up the other story. But, it is niether proof, nor evidence for the god of the bible. Simply proof of a world wide catastrophe. The idea of the "god" telling Noah to pack up and get moving is one way of explaining it. Just like the Sumerians had their way of explaining it, and just like every one else explains it. Their gods did it.

And its just that simple. Sorry about the length of this post. And sorry about mixing every one up with a typo on my part. I did mean to say Astronomy, and not Astrology. My bad people!

TheDude abides.

 

[Frank Ernest]

Want to explain that, especially the story of the Redeemer part, never heard that before. Thanks

I believe it comes from this.

 

[bob b]

Sorry its taken me so long to get back to this. Good news though, I got a job the other day! So thats good. Now on to the rest.

The question I have for you Bob, now that you've posted it, what is your argument? We know that Abraham came from Ur, a city of Sumeria. One of the most advanced cities I might add. We know that the flood story is Sumerian in its origin. We know that Hebrew is a form of Sumerian.

What I say is that at some point, a group of people emigrated from Ur, lets say it was Abraham as the stories tell us. They established themselves and retold the stories from Sumeria. The story as to why they live in the desert, why they no longer live in paradise. Which is what the story of Adam and Eve is. Creation is important in that story, but the real thrust of it is why we no longer dwell in paradise. What happened to the rest of the world, and the basic stories that the Sumerians were telling their children. And like every oral tradition, which is what it would have been, the story changes to fit the times, the people and the place.

So, while you may say that the story in the Bible reads more like a ships manfest then a "story", I see the natural progression of a tale told over hundreds, and thousands of years. We both believe the same story Bob, you just believe the version thats been passed down through the line of Abraham. Its one version of a story that effected the whole planet, it was an event so devistating, it became part of culture itself. A genetic memory if you will. The Biblical view is just one telling on the same story thats been told since the time of the Sumerians. All of them are right, and all of them back up the other story. But, it is niether proof, nor evidence for the god of the bible. Simply proof of a world wide catastrophe. The idea of the "god" telling Noah to pack up and get moving is one way of explaining it. Just like the Sumerians had their way of explaining it, and just like every one else explains it. Their gods did it.

And its just that simple. Sorry about the length of this post. And sorry about mixing every one up with a typo on my part. I did mean to say Astronomy, and not Astrology. My bad people!

TheDude abides.

Your theory assumes that Abraham, the ancestor of the Hebrews brought the story with him from Ur and that the story was elaborated and changed over time and resulted in the flood story in Genesis.

My theory is that the story originated with the survivors on the Ark, and because it still contains dates, etc. is more likely to be the original story rather than an elaboration. I surmise that the reason the story is not as mythological as the Sumerian ones is that a written copy of the event (ship's log?) was available to Moses, a prince of Egypt, from the Egyptian libraries. I believe that the other stories in the book of Genesis, also compiled by Moses probably in a similar fashion, lends additional support to my theory. See:

The Tablet Theory of Genesis Authorship http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

The reader will have to judge which theory if any is the most plausible.

 

[TheDude]

Your theory assumes that Abraham, the ancestor of the Hebrews brought the story with him from Ur and that the story was elaborated and changed over time and resulted in the flood story in Genesis.

Yes, considering the Biblical evidence that supports that.

My theory is that the story originated with the survivors on the Ark, and because it still contains dates, etc. is more likely to be the original story rather than an elaboration. I surmise that the reason the story is not as mythological as the Sumerian ones is that a written copy of the event (ship's log?) was available to Moses, a prince of Egypt, from the Egyptian libraries. I believe that the other stories in the book of Genesis, also compiled by Moses probably in a similar fashion, lends additional support to my theory. See:

Could you cite your source on the bolded? I would really like to know, thank you.

Well yeah the story originated with the surviviors of the Ark. Who else would have told it? Then again I believe that other people survived in some fasion. My hypothisis is that the survivors of the Ark founded Sumeria, and they were the ones who wrote down the oldest account of it. What dates? What etc.? This story in the Bible is much more elaborate then the Sumerian one. I submit that the Sumerian one is the original because of its simplicity and the very nature of it. And that the Biblical story is older because of the ammount of detail and scale put into it. Because of the grandure of the story I think the Biblical account in the hardest to believe. The Sumerian one tells you there was a boat that was knocked around the water, but it doesn't say they had every living creature in pairs of seven or two depending on if your clean or unclean. Which, seems kind of elaborate if you ask me. Oh, and Bob, what about the dinosaurs ?

The Tablet Theory of Genesis Authorship http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

The reader will have to judge which theory if any is the most plausible.

I cant take people who dont believe in the geologic colum seriously.

 

[TheDude]

Heres what I'm talking about. :read:

Heres what I'm talking about. :read:

The following is from: http://mcclungmuseum.utk.edu/specex/ur/ur-flood.htm

The epic of Atrahasis, written in Akkadian, can be dated by colophon (scribal identification) to the reign of Hammurabi's great grandson, Ammi-saduga (1646-1626 BC), and it continued to be copied into the first millennium. In the epic, Enlil, the senior deity of the pantheon, plots to reduce the number of humans, whose noisy vitality was such that Enlil could not sleep. When his plans to wipe out the human race using various plagues are thwarted, Enlil decides on a flood. Enki, the god of fresh water, known for wisdom, as he had in the case of the plagues, betrays Enlil's plan to Atrahasis, the king. Atrahasis, his family, and his possessions, as well as animals and birds, ride out the flood that lasted seven days and seven nights in a reed boat coated with bitumen. On disembarking, Atrahasis makes offerings. The mother goddess condemned the chief gods Anu and Enlil for the destruction and tried to exclude them from the offerings. Enlil is furious when he discovered that even a few humans had survived and he blamed Enki. Enlil eventually gave way and permitted the human race to continue, but he required that Enki and the mother goddess organize them better, probably to spare him the noise.

The Sumerian flood story is preserved on a six-columned tablet from Nippur (B 10637), only the lower third of which is preserved. The complete original would probably have had 260 lines. The tablet can be dated by its script to the late 17th century BC. The story inscribed on the tablet deals with the creation of humans and animals, the antediluvian cities and their rulers, and the flood. This clay tablet, now known as the Nippur Tablet, is displayed in the exhibition.

Bob, the bolded is for you. You say that the Sumerian reads more like myth then reality. It says that the complet text would have been 260 lines. Only the lower half has survived. There would have been a great amount of detail in the missing sections.

 

[bob b]

The following is from: http://mcclungmuseum.utk.edu/specex/ur/ur-flood.htm

Bob, the bolded is for you. You say that the Sumerian reads more like myth then reality. It says that the complet text would have been 260 lines. Only the lower half has survived. There would have been a great amount of detail in the missing sections.

It is fortunate for your theory that so much is missing, for this allows you great leeway in imagining what the missing parts must have said.

 

[Granite]

Your theory assumes that Abraham, the ancestor of the Hebrews brought the story with him from Ur and that the story was elaborated and changed over time and resulted in the flood story in Genesis.

My theory is that the story originated with the survivors on the Ark, and because it still contains dates, etc. is more likely to be the original story rather than an elaboration. I surmise that the reason the story is not as mythological as the Sumerian ones is that a written copy of the event (ship's log?) was available to Moses, a prince of Egypt, from the Egyptian libraries. I believe that the other stories in the book of Genesis, also compiled by Moses probably in a similar fashion, lends additional support to my theory. See:

The Tablet Theory of Genesis Authorship http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

The reader will have to judge which theory if any is the most plausible.

Cute theory without a shred to back it up.

Have you any basis for your belief that Noah or his sons kept a ship's log of any kind, and do you know when such a practice originated?

 

[bob b]

Cute theory without a shred to back it up.
Have you any basis for your belief that Noah or his sons kept a ship's log of any kind, and do you know when such a practice originated?

My basis, as I have continually stated, is that the account is detailed, giving sizes, dates, lengths of time, etc. as would be normally done in any ship's log. Such an account is markedly different than a "myth". :readthis:

The Tablet Theory of Genesis Authorship
http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

 

[Granite]

My basis, as I have continually stated, is that the account is detailed, giving sizes, dates, lengths of time, etc. as would be normally done in any ship's log. Such an account is markedly different than a "myth". :readthis:

The Tablet Theory of Genesis Authorship
http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

No specific dates or times are provided during the flood. No day to day account. No description of life aboard the ship during the deluge. No first person introspection or description of what it must have been like during this terror. The account reads like a lot but the last thing it resembles is a detailed "captain's log." This comparison is absolutely and absurdly ludicrous.

 

[allsmiles]

My basis, as I have continually stated, is that the account is detailed, giving sizes, dates, lengths of time, etc. as would be normally done in any ship's log. Such an account is markedly different than a "myth". :readthis:

That depends Bob. You're going to have to point out where the manifest begins and where it ends. If you can do that, you're also going to have demonstrate how the "manifest" or the account in general is internally correct. I'm going to copy and paste Genesis 6 and 7 and 8 for you and leave notes and questions along the way.

Genesis 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (doublet)

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. (doublet)

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

The doublet is pretty much the only thing that I find interesting about this passage so far, but I am intrigued by your "manifest" theory. Does it start in chapter 6?

Also, Richard Friedman was able to identify two different authors in this passage in his book Who Wrote the Bible? It's pretty cool

Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

There's the internal discrepancy of the number of animals on the ark. I've heard an explanation for this before, but my memory is a bit hazy and I look forward to hearing it again.

4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. (doublet)

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. (doublet)

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. (doublet)

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. (doublet)

24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Plenty of doublets in this passage This demonstrates the presence of two authors, two "manuscripts" and a redactor to splice them together. Verses 18 and 19 are side by side and are nearly identical. I'd like an explanation for the redundancy. Also there's the doublet in verses 21 and 22 as opposed to the version in 23. They tell the same story, but in different ways. Two different authors, one redactor who spliced them together.

There's also the question of how long the flood waters prevailed upon the earth. Take careful not of verse 17. The flood is on the earth for 40 days. Take a close look at verse 24. This is yet another doublet.

I'm not impressed with the internal consistency of this manifest Bob.

Genesis 8:1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged;

2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.

6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:

7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.

8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;

9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;

11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.

13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.

15 And God spake unto Noah, saying,

16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.

17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.

18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:

19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.

20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

So, where's the manifest? The dates and lengths of time are here in chapter 8, but God is the protagonist, not Noah :nono: This isn't told from Noah's perspective at all. Of course it varies, I could take more time cutting this up and pointing out different sections written by the different authors, but it might do you more good to actually look into up to date research in the documentary hypothesis, rather than the scant, out of date info provided by your link.

The lengths of time are contradictory, as are the amount of animals boarding the ark. The doublets are strong evidence of multiple authors.

 

[Jukia]

I suspect that to equate the Noah story with a "ship's log" as bob b wants to do is, what, stretching the facts a bit? Normally a ship's log is day-to-day. We seem to have a substantial gap (the "transitional fossil gap" notwithstanding). My recollection is that bob b called this a "ship's log" as evidence of its factuality! I suspect I keep a better record fo my fishing attempts than the Bible keeps of the flood.

 

[bob b]

I suspect that to equate the Noah story with a "ship's log" as bob b wants to do is, what, stretching the facts a bit? Normally a ship's log is day-to-day. We seem to have a substantial gap (the "transitional fossil gap" notwithstanding). My recollection is that bob b called this a "ship's log" as evidence of its factuality! I suspect I keep a better record fo my fishing attempts than the Bible keeps of the flood.

I would guess that the Genesis story is more reliable than your fish tales. :devil: