sin/sins is not the issue today!

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Here is the answer you gave and it is indeed a pitiful answer:



So here those under the law were Gentiles?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

You are totally confused if you think that the words "which are of the law" are referring to Gentiles. And you accuse me of not being very astute.

It is you who is not very astute but worse you suffer from dementia. And you said nothing about what Peter, who lived under the law, said here:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11).​

Since Peter said that his salvation was on the principle of grace then it is obvious to anyone who will use his brains that "works" had nothing to do with his salvation.

Too many words to read. Make it simply and I may take a look?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Be accountable for your own fear, alarm and defensiveness and just admit you are in fact "waiting" to pounce and criticize.

It's not anything new. Traditional Christians and Muslims are clearly feeling unmoored in a global, interconnected world. I can't help you figure out what you believe and to feel confident about it.

Your point? If you have one that is?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Too many words to read. Make it simply and I may take a look?

Make it simply? I will make it shorter but I am certain that you will refuse to answer my questions.

Again, Paul was speaking to the Gentiles in Romans. You're not very astute, are you?

So here those under the law were Gentiles?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

You are totally confused if you think that the words "which are of the law" are referring to Gentiles. And you accuse me of not being very astute. Are you not aware that the Gentiles were never under the law?

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

You are:

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim.3:7).​

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Make it simply? I will make it shorter but I am certain that you will refuse to answer my questions.



So here those under the law were Gentiles?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

You are totally confused if you think that the words "which are of the law" are referring to Gentiles. And you accuse me of not being very astute. Are you not aware that the Gentiles were never under the law?

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

You are:

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim.3:7).​

I have said "SEVERAL" times on this forum that, the Gentiles
were NEVER under the Law. Evidently, you haven't read many
of my posts? However, you like to make far fetched assumptions
and conclusions. No wonder I don't like posting with you and your
ilk.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Behave yourself Jerry S. Stop fabricating things that don't exist
on planet earth. Otherwise, posters will lose respect for you and
begin to ignore what you have to say. I suggest you apologize
to me and let's start over?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I don't want your apology to be some kind of vague statement. I'll not
accept any disingenuous tripe. You must be genuine and sincere. Then,
perhaps, you and I can start over?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Behave yourself Jerry S. Stop fabricating things that don't exist
on planet earth.

I quoted this verse to demonstrate that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith through grace:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

To that you said:

Again, Paul was speaking to the Gentiles in Romans.

Do you deny that? For a refresher go to post #321 on page 22.

You are the most disingenuous person on this forum and you owe me an apology. How can you be so dishonest on a Christian site?

 

[God's Truth]

I quoted this verse to demonstrate that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith through grace:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Jerry, Abraham was not saved by faith alone. Abraham had to obey everything that God commanded.

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."


God was going to kill Moses because Moses was not going to obey the ceremonial law and circumcise his son.

 

[aikido7]

Your point? If you have one that is?

Traditional religions have retreated into fundamentalism. That indicates a fear of the modern world.

Both Islam and Christianity have their own versions of Shari'a Law. The ancient Christian theological phrases like Son of God, born of a virgin, died for our sins, etc. are no longer compelling or persuadable in a global culture.

My focus on history and Christian tradition are somehow discomforting to you. I think you would feel better if you could just "stamp me out" and not have to confront your own contradictions.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Traditional religions have retreated into fundamentalism. That indicates a fear of the modern world.

Both Islam and Christianity have their own versions of Shari'a Law. The ancient Christian theological phrases like Son of God, born of a virgin, died for our sins, etc. are no longer compelling or persuadable in a global culture.

My focus on history and Christian tradition are somehow discomforting to you. I think you would feel better if you could just "stamp me out" and not have to confront your own contradictions.

Stamp you out? No. Make you change your title from Christian to
Other, yes. I don't believe you're a "True Believer" and member
of the Body of Christ. You reject certain parts of Scripture that
you don't like. A True Believer wouldn't do that.

So, your OWN words announce you as some form of non-believer!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I quoted this verse to demonstrate that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith through grace:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

To that you said:



Do you deny that? For a refresher go to post #321 on page 22.

You are the most disingenuous person on this forum and you owe me an apology. How can you be so dishonest on a Christian site?

You continue to post the same stuff over and over again. Why
is that? Why are you so obsessive?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It's useless to try and converse with Jerry S and A7. They each have their
individual problems.

 

[aikido7]

Stamp you out? No. Make you change your title from Christian to
Other, yes. I don't believe you're a "True Believer" and member
of the Body of Christ. You reject certain parts of Scripture that
you don't like. A True Believer wouldn't do that.

So, your OWN words announce you as some form of non-believer!

I admit that the sayings of Jesus I agree with are the parables and the short, pithy sayings he makes. Anything his dead body says I ignore. I also ignore any Christian theology he speaks--because Christianity did not exist then and besides, he did not use propositional, theological language and dogma.

I agree with the massive consensus of scholars that the gospel accounts were written long after he lived by folks who never met him.

Do YOU reject these certain parts of Scripture that you don't like?

"Why call me good? Only God is good!"
"Pray to the Father in secret."
"The Father makes his sun to shine on both the evil and the good and sendeth rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous."
"Who made ME a judge?"
"Love your enemies. Pray for those who despitefully use you."
"Turn the right cheek?"
"Renounce your possessions."
"Give to everyone who begs of you."

And your amazing and supernatural talent for looking within my heart and determining whether or not I am a true Christian is laudable.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You continue to post the same stuff over and over again.

No, this time I had to defend myself against your false accusations against me.

First you refused to answer verses which contradict your silly ideas. And then I had to hear all your excuses as to why you do not even attempt to defend your ideas. And then you started trying to assassinate my character. Now you are making up false accusations against me.

I have nothing but pity for you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, Abraham was not saved by faith alone. Abraham had to obey everything that God commanded.

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

You are so blind that you think that passage is speaking about salvation. And you ignore this one that is speaking of salvation:

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:3-5).​

You do not even understand the most basic thing about the "gospel of grace" so it is impossible that you have believed it. And since you haven't believed it how can you really think that you are saved?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

 

[God's Truth]

You are so blind that you think that passage is speaking about salvation.

I can easily show you that I am not blind and am speaking God's Truth. However, you being able to hear that truth is dependent upon the condition of your heart. Please humble yourself and I will keep it gentle.

you think that passage is speaking about salvation.

That passage is speaking about salvation! That scripture is speaking about Abraham's salvation and that salvation for the whole world will be brought by the blood relative of Abraham.

And you ignore this one that

I ignore nothing

is speaking of salvation:

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:3-5).​

That is about not having to do the work of circumcision.

You do not even understand the most basic thing about the "gospel of grace" so it is impossible that you have believed it. And since you haven't believed it how can you really think that you are saved?:

The gospel of grace is not what you are believing and teaching. It is not grace to say we do not have to obey. The grace is that we don't have to obey the works people used to have to do, and that is the ceremonial works people used to have to do to clean themselves...the ceremonial works.

You do not even know how to speak to me according to what I say! Try getting deeper into the discussion instead of merely throwing out insults and repeating yourself.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The gospel of grace is not what you are believing and teaching. It is not grace to say we do not have to obey.

If a person has to do works for salvation then the receiving of salvation cannot be described as being on the principle of grace:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

The grace is that we don't have to obey the works people used to have to do, and that is the ceremonial works people used to have to do to clean themselves...the ceremonial works.

NO! The Law spoken of in the context is the moral law:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

Later in the same epistle Paul makes it plain that it is the "moral law" which is the knowledge of sin:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Ro.7:7).​

The words "Thou shalt not covet" are referring to one of the Ten Commandments, the moral law.

You have been shown the truth about the nature of "grace" and it will be only your fault if you continue to deny the "gospel of grace" and die unsaved. And I have nothing further to say to you until you actually believe the gospel of grace.

 

[God's Truth]

If a person has to do works for salvation then the receiving of salvation cannot be described as being on the principle of grace:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

The works spoken of are the ceremonial works. No one has to work at cleaning themselves anymore.

How do you ever get that grace means we no longer have to obey God and do right and abstain from evil?

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).[/INDENT]

That is about the ceremonial works.

Later in the same epistle Paul makes it plain that it is the "moral law" which is the knowledge of sin:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Ro.7:7).​

The old law was not just about the ceremonial works; it was about things we are not to do too.

The words "Thou shalt not covet" are referring to one of the Ten Commandments, the moral law.

You have been shown the truth about the nature of "grace" and it will be only your fault if you continue to deny the "gospel of grace" and die unsaved. And I have nothing further to say to you until you actually believe the gospel of grace.

You believe in something that came from false teachers. You believe and teach things that are not from God and those things naturally go against the Lord.

 

[turbosixx]

NO! The Law spoken of in the context is the moral law:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

Paul is clearly talking about the law of Moses.

Rom. 2:17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law;.....20....because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth—

Later in the same epistle Paul makes it plain that it is the "moral law" which is the knowledge of sin:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Ro.7:7).​

The words "Thou shalt not covet" are referring to one of the Ten Commandments, the moral law.

The ten commandments is part of the law of Moses.

7:6 makes it clear that it's the law of Moses.

6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul is clearly talking about the law of Moses.

There were three parts in regard to the law of Moses.

There was the Ten Commandments which expressed the righteous will of God.

There were the judgments, governing the social life of Israel.

And there was the ordinances, governing the religious life of Israel.

Rom. 2:17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law;.....20....because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth—

Those words are in regard to the whole law of Moses.

Do you believe that the word "worketh" in this verses is strictly referring to the ordinances, the religious life of Israel?:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

I cannot see how that could be possible since these words are found in the context of Abraham and that was before there was such a thing as the ordinances which governed the religious life of Israel.:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​