Shooting at First Baptist Church in Texas

Nihilo

Nihilo

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ffreeloader said:
And some of this stuff is nuts. I was at a trial as an alternate juror where a guy with a record was sent back to jail for a few years because he had the barrel of a 22 rifle in a box of junk. And he had never been convicted of any violent crimes. Sometimes these laws are used to "get" someone the cops and prosecutors just don't like. The guy was a pretty sleazy guy, but years for a rifle barrel? It seemed, and still seems after a few years, nuts to me.

Have you ever heard Bernard Kerik tell his story of what he learned in jail? It's a fascinating story. Here's a link to a talk he gave on what he learned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9nAnEegryk
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It doesn't matter if someone isn't convicted of violent crimes. Criminals are criminals. They have forfeited their RKBA, and I don't have any problem with putting the onus on criminals to make sure that they have followed the law, and relinquished all their guns and gun parts.

But for a .22-caliber barrel only, that does seem excessive, all other things being equal. But it doesn't sound like all other things were equal: "The guy was a pretty sleazy guy..." :idunno:
 
G

Gary K

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Nihilo said:
It doesn't matter if someone isn't convicted of violent crimes. Criminals are criminals. They have forfeited their RKBA, and I don't have any problem with putting the onus on criminals to make sure that they have followed the law, and relinquished all their guns and gun parts.

But for a .22-caliber barrel only, that does seem excessive, all other things being equal. But it doesn't sound like all other things were equal: "The guy was a pretty sleazy guy..." :idunno:
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Justice denied for anyone, even for sleazy people, is justice denied for all of us. It's the principle of the thing. Justice for all is what we are supposed to be about. Denying justice to anyone is supposed to be against what we, as a society, stand for. I know it's against what I stand for. You will have to decide for yourself what you stand for.
 
Nihilo

Nihilo

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ffreeloader said:
Justice denied for anyone, even for sleazy people, is justice denied for all of us. It's the principle of the thing. Justice for all is what we are supposed to be about. Denying justice to anyone is supposed to be against what we, as a society, stand for. I know it's against what I stand for. You will have to decide for yourself what you stand for.
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He got justice. For anyone else, if they were not penalized for breaking that law, then that would be mercy, not justice.
 
Nihilo

Nihilo

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Here are all the countries/territories with less civilian owned guns that America,* but with higher murder rates:

" UNODC murder rates (per 100,000 inhabitants). Most recent year UNODC has published Country (or dependent territory,
subnational area, etc.)

Spoiler
El Salvador 108.64
Honduras 63.75
Venezuela 57.15
United States Virgin Islands (US) 52.64
Jamaica 43.21
Lesotho 38.00
Belize 34.40
South Africa 34.27
Saint Kitts and Nevis 33.55
Guatemala 31.21
Trinidad and Tobago 30.88
Bahamas 29.81
Anguilla (UK) 27.66
Brazil 26.74
Colombia 26.50
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 25.61
Saint Lucia 21.56
Montserrat (UK) 20.39
Tuvalu 20.28
Guyana 19.42
Dominican Republic 17.39
Namibia 16.93
Mexico 16.35
Saint Pierre and Miquelon (France) 15.94
Puerto Rico (US) 15.86
Cayman Islands (UK) 14.74
South Sudan 13.70
Democratic Republic of the Congo 13.36
French Guiana (France) 13.17
Central African Republic 13.09
Greenland (Denmark) 12.46
Bolivia 12.40
Uganda 11.84
Ivory Coast 11.84
Costa Rica 11.77
Nicaragua 11.49
Panama 11.38
Russia 11.31
Antigua and Barbuda 11.23
Barbados 10.91
Republic of the Congo 10.88
Mali 10.82
Suriname 10.68
Botswana 10.53
Papua New Guinea 10.42
Mauritania 10.22
Haiti 10.04
Philippines 9.84
Nigeria 9.79
Angola 9.65
Paraguay 9.29
Guinea-Bissau 9.17
Togo 9.14
Gambia 9.07
Chad 9.02
Gabon 9.00
Cape Verde 8.84
Guinea 8.46
Uruguay 8.42
Dominica 8.40
British Virgin Islands (UK) 8.37
Ecuador 8.23
Swaziland 8.16
Qatar 8.10
Iraq 8.0
Guadeloupe (France) 7.90
Pakistan 7.81
Comoros 7.60
Ethiopia 7.60
Grenada 7.52
Kiribati 7.50
Eritrea 7.46
Senegal 7.30
Mongolia 7.23
Peru 7.16
Tanzania 7.01
Laos 6.87
Djibouti 6.77
Zimbabwe 6.74
Yemen 6.67
Turks and Caicos Islands (UK) 6.61
Afghanistan 6.55
Argentina 6.53
Sudan 6.45
Bermuda (UK) 6.45
Benin 6.01
Lithuania 5.98
Mayotte (France) 5.93
Cameroon 5.93
Zambia 5.85
Kenya 5.75
Somalia 5.56
Kyrgyzstan 5.12

United States 4.88


* - ALL countries have less civilian owned guns per capita than America, and by a WIDE margin.
 
G

Gary K

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Nihilo said:
He got justice. For anyone else, if they were not penalized for breaking that law, then that would be mercy, not justice.
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If that is how you see it, well, that is how you see it. I don't, and can't, see it that way. Mercy is extremely closely related to justice, for there cannot be justice without mercy. To deny anyone mercy and to just throw the book at them because of past mistakes is no justice at all. And, the purpose of that law is to keep entire firearms out of the hand of those who have committed violent crimes in the past. This guy hadn't. Thus, this was a case of using a techicality of law to punish someone who had not violated the spirit of the law. This law is used unfairly against a lot of people.

But, that is another subject entirely. To say that once a felon always felon is very harsh, for when we send someone to prison we say it is to "pay their debt to society". But, a felon is never done "paying his debt to society' until the day he dies. That includes all felons such as those who happen to have netted the wrong kind of fish, or too large of fish, or selling something to someone they didn't know was going to use what was sold them in an illegal way. These people also pay for the rest of their lives for such a major crime as that. I see no justice in that at all for these people had no intent to break the law. These people are also denied their Constitutional rights for the rest of their lives. This could happen to you or I very easily, for there are so many federal laws on the books that almost anyone can be made a felon at any time.

No mercy means no justice.
 
WatchmanOnTheWall

WatchmanOnTheWall

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jsanford108 said:
No, cars are much worse.
Cars: Nearly 1.3 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day.
An additional 20-50 million are injured or disabled.

Guns: 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (Note that deaths do not include intent), 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries.

So, cars are much worse than guns. And we allow 16 year-olds to operate cars.
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You're an insane idiot if you truly believe that rational and only an insane idiot could think pro-gun laws make sense.
 
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jsanford108

New member
WatchmanOnTheWall said:
You're an insane idiot if you truly believe that rational and only an insane idiot could think pro-gun laws make sense.
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So, I am insane for believing in factual statistics? Okay.

There is literally only one "pro gun law," and it is the second right assured to the U.S. people. All other "guns laws" are restrictive, in order to ensure safety. Even concealed carry laws, which I am sure you would label as "pro gun" (which I am positive you know nothing about), are for the safety of the carrier and those around them.

It seems that your issue is not with my rationale, but with my position being based on facts, as well as the facts themselves; which are inconvenient for your false assertions and tyrannical position.



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jsanford108

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WatchmanOnTheWall said:
You're an insane idiot if you truly believe that rational and only an insane idiot could think pro-gun laws make sense.
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You resort to name calling and character bashing when the facts, statistics, and logic disproved your illogical position. This is more telling of the character of yourself, your rationale, and the agenda that you push; when facts disprove you, just assault the opponent and dismiss logic, facts, and reason.

I was attempting to have an open and honest discussion; but you just don't like factual statements and claims because they are detrimental to your position.



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WatchmanOnTheWall

WatchmanOnTheWall

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jsanford108 said:
You resort to name calling and character bashing when the facts, statistics, and logic disproved your illogical position. This is more telling of the character of yourself, your rationale, and the agenda that you push; when facts disprove you, just assault the opponent and dismiss logic, facts, and reason.

I was attempting to have an open and honest discussion; but you just don't like factual statements and claims because they are detrimental to your position.



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Imagine a world without guns (if you have the ability?). Soon that world will exist when Jesus returns.
 
J

jgarden

BANNED
Banned
jsanford108 said:
No, cars are much worse.
Cars: Nearly 1.3 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day.
An additional 20-50 million are injured or disabled.

Guns: 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (Note that deaths do not include intent), 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries.

So, cars are much worse than guns. And we allow 16 year-olds to operate cars.
Click to expand...

gun-cartoon-morin.jpg


Cars may be a necessary evil in a modern democracy - guns, especially assault weapons, were designed with an evil intent and are not a necessity in a civil society.

Automobiles and every other product manufactured in America are subject to government regulation to protect the public - firearms (but not toy guns) are exempt from such safety regulations.

Unlike the auto industry, the "gun lobby" has even gone as far as even curtailing government financed studies as to the impact of firearms on American society - apparently ignorance is bliss!
 
This Charming Manc

This Charming Manc

Well-known member
Th question you want to ask yourself is should the USA be in a list with all of those countries or in a list with

Australia, UK, France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, etc

I see the USA as a mature industrialised democracy which deserves to be in above that list.

If you think two places better than Somalia in terms of murder rates as where the USA ought to we have very different ideas on where america sits in the world.

Nihilo said:
" UNODC murder rates (per 100,000 inhabitants). Most recent year UNODC has published Country (or dependent territory,
subnational area, etc.)

El Salvador 108.64
Honduras 63.75
Venezuela 57.15
United States Virgin Islands (US) 52.64
Jamaica 43.21
Lesotho 38.00
Belize 34.40
South Africa 34.27
Saint Kitts and Nevis 33.55
Guatemala 31.21
Trinidad and Tobago 30.88
Bahamas 29.81
Anguilla (UK) 27.66
Brazil 26.74
Colombia 26.50
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 25.61
Saint Lucia 21.56
Montserrat (UK) 20.39
Tuvalu 20.28
Guyana 19.42
Dominican Republic 17.39
Namibia 16.93
Mexico 16.35
Saint Pierre and Miquelon (France) 15.94
Puerto Rico (US) 15.86
Cayman Islands (UK) 14.74
South Sudan 13.70
Democratic Republic of the Congo 13.36
French Guiana (France) 13.17
Central African Republic 13.09
Greenland (Denmark) 12.46
Bolivia 12.40
Uganda 11.84
Ivory Coast 11.84
Costa Rica 11.77
Nicaragua 11.49
Panama 11.38
Russia 11.31
Antigua and Barbuda 11.23
Barbados 10.91
Republic of the Congo 10.88
Mali 10.82
Suriname 10.68
Botswana 10.53
Papua New Guinea 10.42
Mauritania 10.22
Haiti 10.04
Philippines 9.84
Nigeria 9.79
Angola 9.65
Paraguay 9.29
Guinea-Bissau 9.17
Togo 9.14
Gambia 9.07
Chad 9.02
Gabon 9.00
Cape Verde 8.84
Guinea 8.46
Uruguay 8.42
Dominica 8.40
British Virgin Islands (UK) 8.37
Ecuador 8.23
Swaziland 8.16
Qatar 8.10
Iraq 8.0
Guadeloupe (France) 7.90
Pakistan 7.81
Comoros 7.60
Ethiopia 7.60
Grenada 7.52
Kiribati 7.50
Eritrea 7.46
Senegal 7.30
Mongolia 7.23
Peru 7.16
Tanzania 7.01
Laos 6.87
Djibouti 6.77
Zimbabwe 6.74
Yemen 6.67
Turks and Caicos Islands (UK) 6.61
Afghanistan 6.55
Argentina 6.53
Sudan 6.45
Bermuda (UK) 6.45
Benin 6.01
Lithuania 5.98
Mayotte (France) 5.93
Cameroon 5.93
Zambia 5.85
Kenya 5.75
Somalia 5.56
Kyrgyzstan 5.12
United States 4.88
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This Charming Manc

This Charming Manc

Well-known member
I'm a very strong gun control advocate, and i'm not sure what you think your achieving here.

Your rude and insulting posts only make people dig in further and your arguments are as well developed as the worst of the pro gun lobbyists.

You will have ridiculous positions argued against you here, chill and respond to them with patience and reason. If not please be quiet because all you do is peraaude people that they are right.


WatchmanOnTheWall said:
You're an insane idiot if you truly believe that rational and only an insane idiot could think pro-gun laws make sense.
Click to expand...
 
This Charming Manc

This Charming Manc

Well-known member
After all these years of arguing against it you still haven't understood the premise of UK and Australian gun control and why it works.

Its is not about allowing people including criminals to access guns and limiting what they do with them by statue. I would agree with you that is pretty futile.

But it is about creating a situation where there is a very limited supply of guns for criminals and law abiding citizens and reducing the amount of gun crime due to undermining the supply.

All the figures from the UK and Australia would suggest its an more effective technique than ensuring everyone has lots of guns.

Stripe said:
And the regulation that takes guns away from the good guys is ignored by criminals.

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This Charming Manc

This Charming Manc

Well-known member
Im not arguing with you on this point because i think you know how ridiculous you are being, and your know your just scoring points and making facetious arguments to hide what the figures are clearly showing.

I think you are much brighter than the arguments you just made.

Stripe said:
So you're just guessing.

Did you look at the legal definitions of murder and how they might affect the numbers?

We're not talking about death.


What wild assumptions? You declared guns to be the "main difference" between the homicide rates in the UK and the US. I asked you to defend your assertion.

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