Shalom. The 613 Commandments of the Torah should be observed by Jews, Israel.

Jacob

Jacob

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iouae said:
To me, every law I keep, I regard as a bit of a distraction which is to love God and to love one's pesky fellow man. I really try to keep my religion as simple as possible with as little as possible emphasis on law and custom keeping as possible. That said, I really enjoy the Sabbaths, don't miss unclean foods etc.

I am not a big fan of Jewish customs at all. Please try and sell me on a few of these.
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Do you know the Shema?

Shema Yisrael Yahveh Eloheinu Yahveh Echad

This is

Hear Israel Yahveh our God Yahveh is one.

Love Yahveh your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

This was the Shema, part of it, and the two laws or commandments upon which the Law, Torah, depends, hinges, hangs, rests. These commandments are found in the Torah. The Shema as stated, abreviated, is found in the Torah. Devarim 6:4.

As for tefillin, I still want help understanding. Etc....

Shalom.

Jacob
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
Jacob said:
Do you know the Shema?

Shema Yisrael Yahveh Eloheinu Yahveh Echad

This is

Hear Israel Yahveh our God Yahveh is one.

Love Yahveh your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

This was the Shema, part of it, and the two laws or commandments upon which the Law, Torah, depends, hinges, hangs, rests. These commandments are found in the Torah. The Shema as stated, abreviated, is found in the Torah. Devarim 6:4.

As for tefillin, I still want help understanding. Etc....

Shalom.

Jacob
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Most of the NT is to be found somewhere in the OT.

Christ tended to emphasise "the weightier matters of the law" such as Deut 6:4
 
Jacob

Jacob

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iouae said:
Most of the NT is to be found somewhere in the OT.

Christ tended to emphasise "the weightier matters of the law" such as Deut 6:4
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Matthew 23:23
New American Standard Bible
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
Jacob said:
Matthew 23:23
New American Standard Bible
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
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Tithing, justice, mercy and faithfulness are all OT concepts.

The problem came when the Pharisees majored in the minors, and minored in the majors.

It is exhausting to tithe on every leaf of cummin, leaving less time and inclination for the important stuff.

In some religions the focus is on oneself being clean, pure, etc. Whereas when one rolls up ones sleeves and say helps at a soup kitchen, one gets down and dirty, sometimes encountering attitudes, sometimes getting frustrated. But this is a better righteousness, because here God imputes it to the person who is His soldier in the trenches.

Thanks for the chat.
 
Jacob

Jacob

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iouae said:
Tithing, justice, mercy and faithfulness are all OT concepts.

The problem came when the Pharisees majored in the minors, and minored in the majors.

It is exhausting to tithe on every leaf of cummin, leaving less time and inclination for the important stuff.

In some religions the focus is on oneself being clean, pure, etc. Whereas when one rolls up ones sleeves and say helps at a soup kitchen, one gets down and dirty, sometimes encountering attitudes, sometimes getting frustrated. But this is a better righteousness, because here God imputes it to the person who is His soldier in the trenches.

Thanks for the chat.
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You are welcome.

No. Consider all of what Jesus said. You should include

but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
Jacob said:
No. Consider all of what Jesus said. You should include

but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
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We could read that to be saying do the 1050 NT commands, but do not neglect the 613 OT commands.

One problem with this is that when the counsel of Jerusalem met to discuss circumcision, James and Peter decided to lay no greater burden on Gentile believers (Christian converts) than to do just a few of the 613,not all. These were...

Act 15:19
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 15:22

Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church

I call this OT-light.

I really don't believe Christians are required to keep all 613. This is what Pharisee Christian converts were troubling the Gentiles by preaching, and that Gentiles needed to be circumcised, which is one of the 613.
 
Jacob

Jacob

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iouae said:
We could read that to be saying do the 1050 NT commands, but do not neglect the 613 OT commands.

One problem with this is that when the counsel of Jerusalem met to discuss circumcision, James and Peter decided to lay no greater burden on Gentile believers (Christian converts) than to do just a few of the 613,not all. These were...

Act 15:19
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 15:22

Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church

I call this OT-light.

I really don't believe Christians are required to keep all 613. This is what Pharisee Christian converts were troubling the Gentiles by preaching, and that Gentiles needed to be circumcised, which is one of the 613.
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The Commandments are the same. Not everyone observes all of them, demonstrated by the fact that those who turned to God from among the Gentiles were not required to keep all of them. For Israel, we are to keep all of His Commandments. Not every person observes 613. This is because in Israel observing the 613 not all of these commandments are for every person. But we know that those among Israel observe them. I do not observe the Commandments for women, but if I were married my wife would need to observe the Commandments for women even as I observe those which are for men. In Israel there is the Priest and the High Priest. Whatever commandments apply to the person or the individual are to be observed.
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
Jacob said:
The Commandments are the same. Not everyone observes all of them, demonstrated by the fact that those who turned to God from among the Gentiles were not required to keep all of them. For Israel, we are to keep all of His Commandments. Not every person observes 613. This is because in Israel observing the 613 not all of these commandments are for every person. But we know that those among Israel observe them. I do not observe the Commandments for women, but if I were married my wife would need to observe the Commandments for women even as I observe those which are for men. In Israel there is the Priest and the High Priest. Whatever commandments apply to the person or the individual are to be observed.
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I Googled the 613 OT commands.
I don't believe anyone in the world, least of all the Jews in Israel keep the following...
That the Court shall pass sentence of death by decapitation with the sword (Ex. 21:20; Lev. 26:25) (affirmative).
That the Court shall pass sentence of death by strangulation (Lev. 20:10) (affirmative).
That the Court shall pass sentence of death by burning with fire (Lev. 20:14) (affirmative).
That the Court shall pass sentence of death by stoning (Deut. 22:24) (affirmative).
To hang the dead body of one who has incurred that penalty (Deut. 21:22) (affirmative).
That the dead body of an executed criminal shall not remain hanging on the tree over night (Deut. 21:23) (negative).
To inter the executed on the day of execution (Deut. 21:23) (affirmative)
Not to accept ransom from a murderer (Num. 35:31) (negative).
To exile one who committed accidental homicide (Num. 35:25) (affirmative).
To establish six cities of refuge (for those who committed accidental homicide) (Deut. 19:3) (affirmative).
Not to accept ransom from an accidental homicide, so as to relieve him from exile (Num. 35:32) (negative).
To decapitate the heifer in the manner prescribed (in expiation of a murder on the road, the perpetrator of which remained undiscovered) (Deut. 21:4) (affirmative).
Not to plow nor sow the rough valley (in which a heifer's neck was broken) (Deut. 21:4) (negative).
To adjudge a thief to pay compensation or (in certain cases) suffer death (Ex. 21:16; Ex. 21:37; Ex. 22:1) (affirmative).
That he who inflicts a bodily injury shall pay monetary compensation (Ex. 21:18-19) (affirmative).
To impose a penalty of fifty shekels upon the seducer (of an unbetrothed virgin) and enforce the other rules in connection with the case (Ex. 22:15-16) (affirmative).
That the violator (of an unbetrothed virgin) shall marry her (Deut. 22:28-29) (affirmative).
That one who has raped a damsel and has then (in accordance with the law) married her, may not divorce her (Deut. 22:29) (negative).
Not to inflict punishment on Shabbat (Ex. 35:3) (because some punishments were inflicted by fire) (negative). See Shabbat.
To punish the wicked by the infliction of stripes (Deut. 25:2) (affirmative).
Not to exceed the statutory number of stripes laid on one who has incurred that punishment (Deut. 25:3) (and by implication, not to strike anyone) (CCN43).
Not to spare the offender, in imposing the prescribed penalties on one who has caused damage (Deut. 19:13) (negative).
To do unto false witnesses as they had purposed to do (to the accused) (Deut. 19:19) (affirmative).
Not to punish any one who has committed an offense under duress (Deut. 22:26) (negative).

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
 
WatchmanOnTheWall

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
Jacob said:
Shalom.

The 613 Commandments of the Torah should be observed by Jews, Israel.

The New Covenant is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It is God's law written on minds and hearts. I believe that it came in Yeshua HaMashiach, Yeshua Messiah, Jesus the Christ. The Law and the Prophets have not been abolished. Jesus taught that to be great in the kingdom of heaven one must keep and teach the Commandments.

Do you disagree that in the New Covenant we have God's law and that no commandment from before has been annulled?

Shalom.

Jacob
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You are confusing Commandments with Mitzvot. There are 10 commandments that Jesus kept and expected us to continue try but fail to keep while the 613 Mitzvot are unreasonably complex and many require the temple to be kept. Jesus was basically against most of these and was the reason the Pharisees and Sadducee's kept harassing Him.

Jesus died in order to put us straight with God. He is the only way.
 
Jacob

Jacob

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iouae said:
I Googled the 613 OT commands.
I don't believe anyone in the world, least of all the Jews in Israel keep the following...
That the Court shall pass sentence of death by decapitation with the sword (Ex. 21:20; Lev. 26:25) (affirmative).
That the Court shall pass sentence of death by strangulation (Lev. 20:10) (affirmative).
That the Court shall pass sentence of death by burning with fire (Lev. 20:14) (affirmative).
That the Court shall pass sentence of death by stoning (Deut. 22:24) (affirmative).
To hang the dead body of one who has incurred that penalty (Deut. 21:22) (affirmative).
That the dead body of an executed criminal shall not remain hanging on the tree over night (Deut. 21:23) (negative).
To inter the executed on the day of execution (Deut. 21:23) (affirmative)
Not to accept ransom from a murderer (Num. 35:31) (negative).
To exile one who committed accidental homicide (Num. 35:25) (affirmative).
To establish six cities of refuge (for those who committed accidental homicide) (Deut. 19:3) (affirmative).
Not to accept ransom from an accidental homicide, so as to relieve him from exile (Num. 35:32) (negative).
To decapitate the heifer in the manner prescribed (in expiation of a murder on the road, the perpetrator of which remained undiscovered) (Deut. 21:4) (affirmative).
Not to plow nor sow the rough valley (in which a heifer's neck was broken) (Deut. 21:4) (negative).
To adjudge a thief to pay compensation or (in certain cases) suffer death (Ex. 21:16; Ex. 21:37; Ex. 22:1) (affirmative).
That he who inflicts a bodily injury shall pay monetary compensation (Ex. 21:18-19) (affirmative).
To impose a penalty of fifty shekels upon the seducer (of an unbetrothed virgin) and enforce the other rules in connection with the case (Ex. 22:15-16) (affirmative).
That the violator (of an unbetrothed virgin) shall marry her (Deut. 22:28-29) (affirmative).
That one who has raped a damsel and has then (in accordance with the law) married her, may not divorce her (Deut. 22:29) (negative).
Not to inflict punishment on Shabbat (Ex. 35:3) (because some punishments were inflicted by fire) (negative). See Shabbat.
To punish the wicked by the infliction of stripes (Deut. 25:2) (affirmative).
Not to exceed the statutory number of stripes laid on one who has incurred that punishment (Deut. 25:3) (and by implication, not to strike anyone) (CCN43).
Not to spare the offender, in imposing the prescribed penalties on one who has caused damage (Deut. 19:13) (negative).
To do unto false witnesses as they had purposed to do (to the accused) (Deut. 19:19) (affirmative).
Not to punish any one who has committed an offense under duress (Deut. 22:26) (negative).

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
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Shalom.

I want to know if these came from the link. I accept the Torah. Every commandment, law, or command.

Shalom.

Jacob
 
Jacob

Jacob

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WatchmanOnTheWall said:
You are confusing Commandments with Mitzvot. There are 10 commandments that Jesus kept and expected us to continue try but fail to keep while the 613 Mitzvot are unreasonably complex and many require the temple to be kept. Jesus was basically against most of these and was the reason the Pharisees and Sadducee's kept harassing Him.

Jesus died in order to put us straight with God. He is the only way.
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The 10 are part of the 613. See Matthew 5:17-19.
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
Jacob said:
Shalom.

The Ten Commandments are found among the 613.
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Correct.

And the 613 come only from the first 5 books of the OT. There are thousands of other commands in Proverbs and Psalms etc. which are in addition to the 613.
 
Jacob

Jacob

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iouae said:
Correct.

And the 613 come only from the first 5 books of the OT. There are thousands of other commands in Proverbs and Psalms etc. which are in addition to the 613.
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The TaNaKh is the Torah, the Nevi'im, and the Ketuvim. That is, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.
 
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