ECT Shall we use the NT interp of the OT or MAD/D'ism's?

Interplanner

New member
What's tumblin' about it?
The Lord Jesus fulfilled that part of the sentence exactly.
It's you that tumbles it all.



Yep, it happened literally and the rest of the sentence/prophecy will too.





Nonsense.

The problem was that they didn't understand that Messiah must suffer before He would bring the Davidic Messianic Kingdom. The twelve didn't get it either.
It's plain from the whole of Scripture that the kingdom will be restored to Israel.




GOD told them through the Prophets exactly what He meant and He expected them to believe Him.
That's why John the Baptist came on the scene preaching 'The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!'. He knew what it meant and the people who heard him knew what it meant. He meant the only thing that could have been meant from the accumulated information that they had, 'the Davidic Messianic Kingdom to Israel is at hand!'.




Lots of holes in your paradigm.



Can't you understand the sarcasm of coming into the city on a foal? It was an un-kingdom. It was not going to be what they thought from the beginning. Jn 12:34.

If you say that he came offering a restored Davidic setup, you have surrendered the direction of the prophets. That's not what they meant. You have to realize that there was a veil and how that veil is removed. But you can't play both; you can't say there is 2P2P in the NT.

the veil was not invented by Paul to show Judaism's shortcomings. It was always that way when the old covenant was around. The NT declarations are RETROACTIVE--when Amos 9 is said to be about the mission to the nations, then the NT is reaching way back in to the time of the post-exilic prophets to try to shift the roots of their thinking. But look at you! Still thinking the way they did at that time!
 

Interplanner

New member
It is most certainly not plain from the "whole of Scripture" that there is going to be another Israel episode. What exactly are you referencing? Danglings like Rom 11:26? that's pretty bad. There is nothing in rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, 2 tim 2, Acts 13, 17, Heb 9, 2 Pet 3? The fact that there is none in those is huge, no matter what debates linger about Rom 11.
 

Danoh

New member
There are promises made to them, yet to be fulfilled.
Be a believer, not a skeptic.

Apparantly, the brother knew the Lord way before learning all this that he now spouts.

Thus, he is a Believer.

But that appears the extent of his belief.

For he has obviously been blinded by all he has learned from men as to the Eschatology.

For the truth of the matter is that Matt. - Early Acts are not New Testament ground.

They are much like Daniel; which is where parts of their timeline is described.

And Daniel and his described timeline's events are based on the Law and the Prophets: on Moses, Dan 9:2; 9:13.

For the words of "the Prophets" are based on Moses, Isaiah 8:20.

As the writer of Hebrews reminded - guess who - the Hebrews...

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

The world to come? When?

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Obviously, Matt. thru John are not New Testament ground.

9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Back to the question - the world to come that the writer of Hebrews is writing of - to the Hebrews - when will said world come?

9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Thus, THE SPIRIT'S WORDS thru the Apostle Peter ALSO...about this world to come?

The Spirit thru Peter to whom?

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Israel FIRST - and - as - to - ALL - that - FIRST.

And THEN all the nations of the Earth THROUGH Israel AFTER His return...

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

60:10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. 60:17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. 60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. 60:22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

Til then...

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

All of which was interrupted as planned, in foreknowledge of Israel's response once more - unbelief.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Does that mean He is through with that nation?

11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Again, what of that nation? What of the LORD's reminder TO THEM though THEIR Prophet...

Are those who "study the Bible" through Josephus, right?

Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

What about that?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

But brothers like Interplanner have been blinded by the same, apparantly well intended error of the likes of a Peter Holford.

Who, in the footsteps of those Replacementists before him (Reformed and all its various strains); ended up discrediting the very God Who's fidelity to His Word, he set out to prove to the Higher Critics of His day.

Trade in your Bible for...the Bible through Halford's error of "the Bible" through Josephus...and you too will soon mis-conclude you are being faithful to the Scripture.
 
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Danoh

New member
When I say "Be a believer" to IP, I am not doubting his salvation, for he may well believe the gospel...but yet not believe all that God has said in his word.

I know bro. No different understanding between us as to this issue :)

In these things, I belong to no side, other than that of one of Israel's greatest Prophets against the distortions of all Replacementists...

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

I just wanted to point out the basis of your words about him to him for him, as well as for the benefit others; as you and are basically agreed about his take on things.

I doubt you disagreed with my post; whether you and yours acknowledge it or not :chuckle:
 

Interplanner

New member
Apparantly, the brother knew the Lord way before learning all this that he now spouts.

Thus, he is a Believer.

But that appears the extent of his belief.

For he has obviously been blinded by all he has learned from men as to the Eschatology.

For the truth of the matter is that Matt. - Early Acts are not New Testament ground.

They are much like Daniel; which is where parts of their timeline is described.

And Daniel and his described timeline's events are based on the Law and the Prophets: on Moses, Dan 9:2; 9:13.

For the words of "the Prophets" are based on Moses, Isaiah 8:20.

As the writer of Hebrews reminded - guess who - the Hebrews...

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

The world to come? When?

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Obviously, Matt. thru John are not New Testament ground.

9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Back to the question - the world to come that the writer of Hebrews is writing of - to the Hebrews - when will said world come?

9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Thus, THE SPIRIT'S WORDS thru the Apostle Peter ALSO...about this world to come?

The Spirit thru Peter to whom?

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Israel FIRST - and - as - to - ALL - that - FIRST.

And THEN all the nations of the Earth THROUGH Israel AFTER His return...

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

60:10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. 60:17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. 60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. 60:22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

Til then...

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

All of which was interrupted as planned, in foreknowledge of Israel's response once more - unbelief.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Does that mean He is through with that nation?

11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Again, what of that nation? What of the LORD's reminder TO THEM though THEIR Prophet...

Are those who "study the Bible" through Josephus, right?

Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

What about that?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

But brothers like Interplanner have been blinded by the same, apparantly well intended error of the likes of a Peter Holford.

Who, in the footsteps of those Replacementists before him (Reformed and all its various strains); ended up discrediting the very God Who's fidelity to His Word, he set out to prove to the Higher Critics of His day.

Trade in your Bible for...the Bible through Halford's error of "the Bible" through Josephus...and you too will soon mis-conclude you are being faithful to the Scripture.



You are a total fool about the higher critics Danoh, or even the idea that the works of Josephus helped them. The reality is the exact opposite.

You are just protecting 2P2P and other gospels and nonsense like Matt -- early Acts is not NT so that you can "feel" like you have proof of 2P2P.

Very poorly done and very ignorant about Holford. Payne is the guy who helped the higher critics. Not Holford.

Where does delusion like this come from?
 

Danoh

New member
You are a total fool about the higher critics Danoh, or even the idea that the works of Josephus helped them. The reality is the exact opposite.

You are just protecting 2P2P and other gospels and nonsense like Matt -- early Acts is not NT so that you can "feel" like you have proof of 2P2P.

Very poorly done and very ignorant about Holford. Payne is the guy who helped the higher critics. Not Holford.

Where does delusion like this come from?

No o clueless one; you read that wrong.

I was not asserting Josephus' work helped the Higher Critics, rather; that Holford had relied on Josephus in HIS attempt to prove them wrong.

But as with some others on TOL; you often prove yourself either to often having read into another's words, or having to ask what said other had meant; only to still miss it.

Obviously, I understand your words well enough, where others just like you in their version of your crutch are not able to.

Why are you and those like you in this problem on TOL like that?

Because each your over reliance on others for what to think about a thing has left you each unable to get at the actually intended sense of another's words, unless it is fed to you.

And you, just like them; will be offended by my having to point this out to you once more.

Ye are yet carnal; yet babes in Christ, as a result.
 

Interplanner

New member
No o clueless one; you read that wrong.

I was not asserting Josephus' work helped the Higher Critics, rather; that Holford had relied on Josephus in HIS attempt to prove them wrong.

But as with some others on TOL; you often prove yourself either to often having read into another's words, or having to ask what said other had meant; only to still miss it.

Obviously, I understand your words well enough, where others just like you in their version of your crutch are not able to.

Why are you and those like you in this problem on TOL like that?

Because each your over reliance on others for what to think about a thing has left you each unable to get at the actually intended sense of another's words, unless it is fed to you.

And you, just like them; will be offended by my having to point this out to you once more.

Ye are yet carnal; yet babes in Christ, as a result.



Not so. You said that Holford was helping the higher critics simply by using Josephus. Actually, good discussions of the Jewish War are pretty much absent from the higher critics, if you read Hengel's background. He wrote the piece on NT revolutionaries when the PLO claimed they were also 'cleansing the temple.'

If they had worked on the revolt background more instead of evolutionary theory, they never would have got off the ground. They had the best thing available in Holford.

You need to stop using the term 'relying' because it is as precise as the mathematical figure 1-99% is "between 0 and 100." Holford did not rely on it. He recognized it was about Mt 24 and Lk 21 because it had to be.
 

Interplanner

New member
Please prove it by pasting it here or shut up.

Thanks to all who participate in these debates; I believe they are very constructive for arriving at what the NT actually says, and hope they lead to fruitful ministry to those who don't know their right hand from their left.
 

Danoh

New member
Please prove it by pasting it here or shut up.

Thanks to all who participate in these debates; I believe they are very constructive for arriving at what the NT actually says, and hope they lead to fruitful ministry to those who don't know their right hand from their left.

So far, you remain the child who's shoes are on the wrong foot - and your reading into another's words is not very "constructive" :chuckle:
 

Danoh

New member
You are a total fool about the higher critics Danoh, or even the idea that the works of Josephus helped them. The reality is the exact opposite.

You are just protecting 2P2P and other gospels and nonsense like Matt -- early Acts is not NT so that you can "feel" like you have proof of 2P2P.

Very poorly done and very ignorant about Holford. Payne is the guy who helped the higher critics. Not Holford.

Where does delusion like this come from?

After laying out a series of passages showing that God is not through with Israel as to their land promise and restoration Theocracy one day; I posted the following, to which you immediately posted your clueless post above.

But brothers like Interplanner have been blinded by the same, apparantly well intended error of the likes of a Peter Holford.

Who, in the footsteps of those Replacementists before him (Reformed and all its various strains); ended up discrediting the very God Who's fidelity to His Word, he set out to prove to the Higher Critics of His day.

Trade in your Bible for...the Bible through Halford's error of "the Bible" through Josephus...and you too will soon mis-conclude you are being faithful to the Scripture.

THAT, you incompetent; was in relation to, and in the sense of, Holford having turned the passages I cited; into a lie.

He set out to prove the Higher Critics wrong by way of his having foolishly sought to understand Matt. 24 via Josephus' accounts of 70AD; which you ignorantly refer to as the DofJ.

And by that; he failed to see he was actually descrediting passages like the ones I cited above your fool rant.

You are one dishonest reader of another's words.

You are that vain, and that dishonest.

Ever going for "the punchline" you missed the meat; spiked up your blood sugar, and ended up "punch drunk" :chuckle:
 

SaulToPaul

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Silver Subscriber
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Please prove it by pasting it here or shut up.

Thanks to all who participate in these debates; I believe they are very constructive for arriving at what the NT actually says, and hope they lead to fruitful ministry to those who don't know their right hand from their left.

You talk much about the NT, not knowing that very little of it is actually New Covenant.
 
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