ECT Saved "Savages"?

Danoh

New member
It's an issue I have reflected on from time to time, over the years - were any of those among what the ignorant right off refer to as "savages" saved?

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

How were such saved, not only before the Cross, but even after, when they were off in lands on the other side of the earth?

It appears evident that where such are concerned God was judging the secrets - the unkown hearts - of such, unknown but by Him ALONE - by a different standard of faith EXPRESSED AS FAITH but one that was also based on the merits of the Cross.

Sort of like the question often asked about that thief crucified next to the Lord who expressed his faith in his words to the Lord; but who may have not been water baptized before having had the opportunity to submit to Israel's then still in force; required water cleansing ritual as the EXPRESSION OF a good conscience toward God, Luke 7:29; 2 Peter 3:21.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

And...

Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
How were such saved, not only before the Cross, but even after, when they were off in lands on the other side of the earth?

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him"
(Heb.11:6).​

"Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right"
(Acts 10:34-35).​
 
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Danoh

New member

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him"
(Heb.11:6).​

And as you well know, the EXPRESSION OF faith was NOT always the same.

Said EXPRESSION OF faith was EVER closely related to where things stood within the PROGRESSIVE revelation of faith.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
And as you well know, the EXPRESSION OF faith was NOT always the same.

Said EXPRESSION OF faith was EVER closely related to where things stood within the PROGRESSIVE revelation of faith.

Do you mean that the "object" of faith was not always the same?
 

Danoh

New member
Do you mean that the "object" of faith was not always the same?

More like EXPRESSION OF faith toward said object was not the same.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Was this an EXPRESSION OF faith under the Law, for example...no - it was BEFORE the Law...

Genesis 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
 

Danoh

New member
Please explain why you mean by expression of faith.

Sort of like that difference in required expression of faith depicted in the NT between the required believing that Jesus is/was the Christ, and the required believing that Christ died for our sins.

Both were a required expression of faith as to whom one or the other of those two, applied.

(The older, sounder, Mid-Acts view on that).

Likewise prior to the NT.

There appear to have been different required expressions of faith, both prior to and during, the Law.

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

At least that appears the case in the Apostle Paul's breakdown of the history of this in Romans 1:18-3:20.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
There appear to have been different required expressions of faith, both prior to and during, the Law.

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The verses there are strictly in regard to a person's "works" or deeds and does not have anything to do with anyone's faith:

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds"​
(Ro.2:5-6).​
 

Danoh

New member
The verses there are strictly in regard to a person's "works" or deeds and does not have anything to do with anyone's faith:

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds"​
(Ro.2:5-6).​

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
 

Danoh

New member
Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Matthew 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 

intojoy

BANNED
Banned
It's an issue I have reflected on from time to time, over the years - were any of those among what the ignorant right off refer to as "savages" saved?

How were such saved, not only before the Cross, but even after, when they were off in lands on the other side of the earth?

I.

None of them were saved


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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"
(Ro.3:13).​

Once a person sins then he is no longer righteous in the eyes of God. At that point he is totally dependent on the grace of God if he is going to be justified--"justified by grace" (Ro.3:24).
 

intojoy

BANNED
Banned
I used to assume, when I was younger, that all kinds of folk were gettin saved BC. The fact is that hardly anyone outside of Israel's monopoly on the one true God did get saved. I don't see anyone in Judges or during the monarchial phase of the kingdom being "saved".


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Danoh

New member
I used to assume, when I was younger, that all kinds of folk were gettin saved BC. The fact is that hardly anyone outside of Israel's monopoly on the one true God did get saved. I don't see anyone in Judges or during the monarchial phase of the kingdom being "saved".


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

That thief on the Cross who confessed Christ as Israel's Prophesied Christ: the Son of God - the King Of Israel...

Obviously the Lord, in His answer to him; displayed knowing his heart.

That he was no longer just one more Israelite uncircumcised in heart and ears.

That had he been allowed to live; he would have submitted himself to Israel's water baptism for the remission of sins, and so on.

It appears the same applies to the heart of the Gentile out there somewhere - who has not the Law - but does have the work OF the Law (the awareness of right and wrong) written in his heart.

In other words, it appears that God, which trieth the hearts, knows who would trust in His Son were he given the opportunity; as in the following; in Israel's yet unborn...

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

I mean, that is exactly why God has never been, is not, and will never be...through with Israel.

He has ever known there are those both out there and those not yet even born, who will come to Him, when called by Him.

Likewise with Gentiles out there in far off lands - He knows who would come to him; given the opportunity.

Just as He foreknew there would be Gentiles who would come to Him, if called, and had planned that those who did heed His call, He would conform them to the image of His Son.

This, in contrast to those who knew of the God Israel of by reputatuon, but were strangers of His Covenants of Promise unto that nation, by their own choice.

Just something I look at attempting to sort out, at times.
 
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