ECT Salvation Under the Law

DAN P

Well-known member
A little bait, Dan P - what do you believe the following passages prove about Paul?

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


Hi and MY O MY , YOU want me to explain what Acts 9:5 and 1 Cor 12:3 mean ??

There are 5 verbs in verse 5 , 2 in the AOTIST TENSE and 2 in the and 3 in the Greek PRESENT TENSE !!

So you want to know what the verb , TO KICK means I suppose !!

The Greek verb TO KICK or Iron Goads , or Pricks as used in the KJV !!

#1 , Against the IRON Goads
32 ,SCORPIONS
#3 , For URGING Oxen and Horses other beastd of Burden
#4 A STING

I believe that it is Paul that was doing the KICKING against the IRON STINKS against his MESSIANNIC PEOPLE and Jesus puts a stop to it !!

1 Cor 12:3 and 1 Cor 15:8 and Acts 15:11 am DISAPPOINTED that you or JERRY can not figure it out and ONLY a dispensationalist CAN and beyound your understanding , and I see why !!

dan
 

Danoh

New member
Hi and MY O MY , YOU want me to explain what Acts 9:5 and 1 Cor 12:3 mean ??

There are 5 verbs in verse 5 , 2 in the AOTIST TENSE and 2 in the and 3 in the Greek PRESENT TENSE !!

So you want to know what the verb , TO KICK means I suppose !!

The Greek verb TO KICK or Iron Goads , or Pricks as used in the KJV !!

#1 , Against the IRON Goads
32 ,SCORPIONS
#3 , For URGING Oxen and Horses other beastd of Burden
#4 A STING

I believe that it is Paul that was doing the KICKING against the IRON STINKS against his MESSIANNIC PEOPLE and Jesus puts a stop to it !!

1 Cor 12:3 and 1 Cor 15:8 and Acts 15:11 am DISAPPOINTED that you or JERRY can not figure it out and ONLY a dispensationalist CAN and beyound your understanding , and I see why !!

dan

I wrote "A little bait, Dan P - what do you believe the following passages prove about Paul?"

What part of that was not clear that I was BAITING you about what YOU believe those two passages PROVE?

Apparantly, none of it was.

A question which you failed to answer; by the way.

:doh:
 

DAN P

Well-known member
I wrote "A little bait, Dan P - what do you believe the following passages prove about Paul?"

What part of that was not clear that I was BAITING you about what YOU believe those two passages PROVE?

Apparantly, none of it was.

A question which you failed to answer; by the way.

:doh:


Hi and what BAIT are you talking about , as there was NOTHING on the HOOK !!

Here is your CHANCE to say what you really did mean GRASSHOPPER ??

I do have a book on MIND reading , but do not have brains to understand , so correct me !!

Especially on 1 Cor 12:3 and Acts 9:6 ??

dan p
 

Danoh

New member
Hi and what BAIT are you talking about , as there was NOTHING on the HOOK !!

Here is your CHANCE to say what you really did mean GRASSHOPPER ??

I do have a book on MIND reading , but do not have brains to understand , so correct me !!

Especially on 1 Cor 12:3 and Acts 9:6 ??

dan p

Man are you dense...

:doh:
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Man are you dense...

:doh:


Hi and just resting after finishing lunch and I see that andyc likes your answer , which now means that you have no answer as to HOW Paul was SAVED so 1 Cor 12:3 and 1 Cor 15:8 or Acts 9:6 do not mean any thing ?? See you !!

dan p
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You do not understand what Acts 15:11 means !!

I sure do:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are"
(Acts 15:11).​

Peter said that he was saved on the principle of grace, the same way that the Gentile believers were saved. We also know that "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive, as witnessed by what Paul said here:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast"
(Eph.2:8-9).​

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt"
(Ro.4:4).​

Therefore, we can understand that Peter and the rest of the Jewish believers who lived under the law were saved APART FROM WORKS.

And it is clear that those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​
 

DAN P

Well-known member
I sure do:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are"
(Acts 15:11).​

Peter said that he was saved on the principle of grace, the same way that the Gentile believers were saved. We also know that "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive, as witnessed by what Paul said here:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast"
(Eph.2:8-9).​

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt"
(Ro.4:4).​

Therefore, we can understand that Peter and the rest of the Jewish believers who lived under the law were saved APART FROM WORKS.

And it is clear that those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​


Hi Jerry and read Acts 15:11 as I believe that you have written it incorrect !!

But we believe through the GRACE of Lord Jesus Christ to be SAVED as they ALSO !!

#1 , The first Greek word is WE BELIEVE is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE of CONTINUOUS ACTION ONLY in the Dispensation of the GRACE of God / CHARIS / FAVOR !!

#2, AND the second verb is WE SHALL BE SAVED /SOZO is in the AOTIST TENSE which Paul says begins as when Paul was saved !!

This all means that you do NOT have a concept as to what the HOLY SPIRIT has written !!

We see that there were many thousands of Jew ZEALOUS for the LAW !!

And in Acts 21:21 we see that Paul is speaking AGAINST the Law in Acts 21:20 !!

In other words GO back to tour DRAWING BOARD !!

dan p
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
#2, AND the second verb is WE SHALL BE SAVED /SOZO is in the AOTIST TENSE which Paul says begins as when Paul was saved !!

Here is what The Blue Letter Bible says about the Aorist tense:

"The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time."

So the verb translated "shall be saved" does not tell us if the salvation is present or if it remains in the future. But we do know that the Jewish believers were already saved since they were already redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot"
(1 Pet.1:18-19).​

The Jewish believers were already saved so this is the correct translation of Acts 15:11:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are"
(Acts 15:11).​

Since the Jewish believers were saved by grace we can know that "works" played no part in their salvation.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Here is what The Blue Letter Bible says about the Aorist tense:

"The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time."

So the verb translated "shall be saved" does not tell us if the salvation is present or if it remains in the future. But we do know that the Jewish believers were already saved since they were already redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot"
(1 Pet.1:18-19).​

The Jewish believers were already saved so this is the correct translation of Acts 15:11:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are"
(Acts 15:11).​

Since the Jewish believers were saved by grace we can know that "works" played no part in their salvation.



Hi and the first verb is in the PRESENT TENSE of continuous action , ACTIVE VOICE AND INDICATIVE MOOD !!

The ACTIVE VOICE I believe , means that ths subject of that verb is Peter believing !!

That those under the Law SHALL BE SAVED as Paul was SAVED !!

The Indicative Mood means that Acts 15:11 is a FACT !!

Then the second verb is in the AOTIST TENSE that points to being SAVED by the DISPENSATION of thr Grace of God and the PASSIVE VOICE JUST MEANS THAT God will be doing the Saving !!

dan p
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
That those under the Law SHALL BE SAVED as Paul was SAVED !!

As I said, the Jewish believers were already redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot"
(1 Pet.1:18-19).​

Since they were already redeemed by His blood they were already saved. So this is the correct translation:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are"
(Acts 15:11).​

Since the Jewish believers were saved by grace we can know that "works" played no part in their salvation.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
As I said, the Jewish believers were already redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot"
(1 Pet.1:18-19).​

Since they were already redeemed by His blood they were already saved. So this is the correct translation:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are"
(Acts 15:11).​

Since the Jewish believers were saved by grace we can know that "works" played no part in their salvation.


Hi Jerry and 1 Peter was written to Jews and NOT to the B O C !!

You have your version of Acts 15:11 and I have the correct version !!

Sorry to say , BUT HEBREWS-REVELATION are wittin to Israel !!

dan p
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Hi Jerry and 1 Peter was written to Jews and NOT to the B O C !!

Even if you are right it is a fact that the Jewish believers who lived under the law were saved by "grace."

And since "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive we can know for a fact that their salvation was APART FROM WORKS!
 

Danoh

New member
Here is what The Blue Letter Bible says about the Aorist tense:

"The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time."

So the verb translated "shall be saved" does not tell us if the salvation is present or if it remains in the future. But we do know that the Jewish believers were already saved since they were already redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot"
(1 Pet.1:18-19).​

The Jewish believers were already saved so this is the correct translation of Acts 15:11:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are"
(Acts 15:11).​

Since the Jewish believers were saved by grace we can know that "works" played no part in their salvation.

Actually, it is the KJV that keeps in tact what that note from the Blue Letter Bible is correctly affirming...

The phrase "we shall be" refers the First Person Plural acting in the Simple Present.

Today, we might say "are saved."

The KJV being a much more Formal use of Early Modern English, used the First Person, Plural, Simple Present.

In other words, Peter is NOT referring to salvation as a point in time, rather to both its' fact, and its' basis.

He is referring to THE FACT that both have salvation; that both ARE saved.

That God HAS saved them both.

It is why the Spirit's manifestation is mentioned in Acts 10; why Peter mentions both in Acts 11 and here in Acts 15, why Paul mentions it both here in Acts 15 and in Galatians 3, just after he relates his having had to remind Peter of the fact of both their's and the Gentile's salvation by grace through faith, in Galatians 2.

We = First Person Plural.

They = Third Person Plural.

Shall be = Simple Present use of "are."

Simple Present refers NOT to a point in time, BUT to the simple FACT of a thing.

Peter is stating an operative principle as fact - "But (for the fact of the matter is that) we believe that..."

And both the passages in Acts 15 and elsewhere bear this out.

In fact, the words "even as" refer back to Peter's actual assertion - that both ARE saved in the SAME manner.

Shall be is the Simple Present of are.

It shall be - is - used when a fact is being pointed out - not its time (past, present, or future).

The KJV is right.

Problem is that both far too many KJVers and or non KJVers haven't much of a clue of the KJV's unique use of rules of grammar.

Both as to those rules of grammar that went out of use as EARLY Modern English CONTINUED ITS' TRANSITION TO MODERN English, as well as to those rules little used by most people, to begin with.

Absent of this, one could be "in study every day" only to end up...clueless.
 

Danoh

New member
Even if you are right it is a fact that the Jewish believers who lived under the law were saved by "grace."

And since "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive we can know for a fact that their salvation was APART FROM WORKS!

Yep :thumb:

Under the Law, works saved no one.

Case in point - Unbelieving Israel had sought that righteousness which is of the Law, only to fail to attain it.

Why?

Because they were Unbelieving - because they sought IT NOT by faith.

Unbelieving, they talked the talk, walked the walk, but merely "as pleasing men, not as pleasining God - which trieth THE HEARTS."

As a result, though they had been able to boast in their being "called a Jew" their "HEART" was "FAR from Me..."

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Circumcision verily profiteh, if though keep the Law?

What?

Hunh?

2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Back when The Law was "the righteousness of GOD" the Law was to be kept FROM THE HEART.

The issue was "not as pleasing men, BUT as pleasing GOD."

In other words, because "ALL THIS LAW" is what HE has commanded us Israelites UNDER MOSES.

The issue was THE HEART.

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Jer Since the Jewish believers were saved by grace we can know that "works" played no part in their salvation.[/QUOTE said:
Hi Jerry and since Acts 21:20 all Jews were still ZEALOUS of the LAW , HOW can a Jew be KEEPING the Law of Moses and then be saved by Grace ??

dan p
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Hi Jerry and since Acts 21:20 all Jews were still ZEALOUS of the LAW , HOW can a Jew be KEEPING thr Law of Moses and thrn be saved by Grace ??

They were all believers and therefore the demands of the law for righteousness were no longer in effect:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).​
 

DAN P

Well-known member
They were all believers and therefore the demands of the law for righteousness were no longer in effect:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).​


Hi and than they can KEEP the Law as a believer and then be a Believer under Grace , BUT Jerry there are NO Jews or GENTILES in the B O C as written in Gal 3:28 , HOW can that be ??

dan p
 

DAN P

Well-known member
They were all believers and therefore the demands of the law for righteousness were no longer in effect:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).​


Hi and than they can KEEP the Law as a believer and then be a Believer under Grace , BUT Jerry there are NO Jews or GENTILES in the B O C as written in Gal 3:28 , HOW can that be ??

Hki and in Rom 10:4 the verb THAT BELIEVING LONE Is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and is Continous action ONLY in the Dispensation of the GRACE of God and NOT happenning under the Law of Moses !! Wrong again Jerry !!

dan p
 

Danoh

New member
Hi and than they can KEEP the Law as a believer and then be a Believer under Grace , BUT Jerry there are NO Jews or GENTILES in the B O C as written in Gal 3:28 , HOW can that be ??

Hki and in Rom 10:4 the verb THAT BELIEVING LONE Is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and is Continous action ONLY in the Dispensation of the GRACE of God and NOT happenning under the Law of Moses !! Wrong again Jerry !!

dan p

Yeah, sure, DP, Paul does not make a distinction between Jew and Gentile.

If you say so.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

That right there is a distinction between the two.

Here, have some more, know it all
... :chuckle:

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Some more...

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

And more...

Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

And more...

11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
 
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