ECT Ryrie's doctrine of two peoples and two programs

[Danoh]

Can you not see that they are one and the same thing? The quickening IS the new birth IS adoption IS being born again. Peruse Rom 8:11-15 (emphasis added):

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Things that are the same are not different!

Nope - as Galatians 4 shows, the adoption in question is similar to that as in the Israelite concept of Bar Mitzvah: one's own child being made (aknowledged) as being a son.

No longer under tutors and governors, but a son over said household with one's father - sit down at my right hand until...

And...

"Know ye not that ye shall judge the angels?"

That next stage in our..."adoption."

Rom. 14:5 towards ya.

 

[Wick Stick]

According to your idea the Fathers (who were brought out of the land of Egypt) adopted those who are referred to as the "house of Israel" (Jer.31:31) despite the fact that those of that house did not even exist at that time!

How did the Fathers adopt them since they didn't even exist?

First - of course they exist. God is the God of the Living. Abraham SAW Jesus day, and was glad.

The short answer to your question is - their descendants performed the adoption ceremonies. Quite a lot of ceremonies... still ongoing to this day.

Of course, we call them "baptisms," and the church seems to have forgotten the purpose of immersion. But before Christ came, the Jews were already baptizing proselytes, for the purpose of adopting them into Judaism. Check out this snippet from the Jewish Encyclopedia:

The bathing in the water is to constitute a rebirth, wherefore "the ger is like a child just born" (Yeb. 48b); and he must bathe "in the name of God"—"leshem shamayim"—that is, assume the yoke of Gcd's kingdom imposed upon him by the one who leads him to Baptism ("maṭbil"), or else he is not admitted into Judaism (Gerim. vii. 8). For this very reason the Israelites before the acceptance of the Law had, according to Philo on the Decalogue ("De Decalogo," ii., xi.), as well as according to rabbinical tradition, to undergo the rite of baptismal purification (compare I Cor. x. 2, "They were baptized unto Moses [the Law] in the clouds and in the sea").

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The short answer to your question is - their descendants performed the adoption ceremonies. Quite a lot of ceremonies... still ongoing to this day.

Of course, we call them "baptisms," and the church seems to have forgotten the purpose of immersion. But before Christ came, the Jews were already baptizing proselytes, for the purpose of adopting them into Judaism. Check out this snippet from the Jewish Encyclopedia:

No one is going to believe your nonsense that people were submitting to the rite of water for the purpose of being adopted into Judaism!

 

[Wick Stick]

No one is going to believe your nonsense that people were submitting to the rite of water for the purpose of being adopted into Judaism!

You didn't understand. Christian baptism isn't adoption to Judaism. It's an adoption unto God, and by the terms of His covenant with Abraham, also to Abraham. Hence, "Father of Goyim."

The entry from the Encylopedia Judaica was simply to demonstrate how baptism was historically understood to be an adoption.

Honestly, it feels like there's a communication problem, here. Whatever I say, you turn around with the same objection, and that objection is non-sequitor to what I actually said. You cannot seem to get past the part where Israel split into two nations. You keep talking about Jews and Israel as if they were the same thing. They aren't. Until you get that, whatever dialogue we have isn't going to make sense to you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You didn't understand. Christian baptism isn't adoption to Judaism. It's an adoption unto God, and by the terms of His covenant with Abraham, also to Abraham.

There is nothing found in the Bible which even hints that the "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" was a adoption unto God.

Before anyone could be baptized in water they had to first believe (Acts 8:36-37) and by the time a person believed he was already saved (Eph.1:13).

You keep talking about Jews and Israel as if they were the same thing.

The word "Jew" was used to refer to any of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You don't really think that those from the northern kingdom had a different religion than those of the southern kingdom, do you?:

"For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it" (Gal.1:13).​

Those from the northern kingdom shared the "one" God given religion with those from the southern kingdom. So when Paul referred to " the Jew's religion" he was using the word "Jew" to refer to all from both kingdoms.

 

[Interplanner]

There is nothing found in the Bible which even hints that the "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" was a adoption unto God.

Before anyone could be baptized in water they had to first believe (Acts 8:36-37) and by the time a person believed he was already saved (Eph.1:13).



The word "Jew" was used to refer to any of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You don't really think that those from the northern kingdom had a different religion than those of the southern kingdom, do you?:

"For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it" (Gal.1:13).​

Those from the northern kingdom shared the "one" God given religion with those from the southern kingdom. So when Paul referred to " the Jew's religion" he was using the word "Jew" to refer to all from both kingdoms.

And yet in Gal 4, that religion is called the 'weak and miserable prinicples of the world' because of the exceeding glory of the message of the Gospel.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And yet in Gal 4, that religion is called the 'weak and miserable prinicples of the world' because of the exceeding glory of the message of the Gospel.

The Scriptures make it clear that in the future all those of the house of Israel will be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

The "fathers" of those referred to as the "house of Israel" were the Jews who were delivered out of Egypt. And those "fathers" were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And since their "fathers" are the physical descendants of Jacob that means that all those of the "house of Israel" will also be the physical descendants of Jacob. And they will all know the LORD, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, and they shall all have their sins forgiven.

Anyone in their right mind knows that this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled!

 

[Wick Stick]

There is nothing found in the Bible which even hints that the "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" was a adoption unto God.

Actually, there's quite a bit. But the first text that ought to be mentioned is John 3: Jesus discussion with Nicodemus.

What do you think "born again" means? That's an adoption.

The word "Jew" was used to refer to any of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

100% False. The word "Jew" doesn't even occur in the Bible until the Babylonian captivity, which was 200-ish years after the northern kingdom was utterly destroyed.

The Northern Kingdom was referred to as "Ephraim" in contrast to "Judah," as "Samaria" in contrast to "Jerusalem," and "House of Israel" in contrast to "House of Judah."

Don't trust me; check your Bible.

You don't really think that those from the northern kingdom had a different religion than those of the southern kingdom, do you?:

You haven't spent much time in the Old Testament, have you? The northern kingdom went into apostasy immediately after it was formed. Every king they ever had is listed as wicked; there were no righteous kings in the north. From the point of Ahab and Jezebel forward, the state religion of the northern kingdom was identical to that of Tyre. That is, they worshiped Baal and Ashterah.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What do you think "born again" means? That's an adoption.

No one is going to believe your little fairy tale.

 

[Interplanner]

Actually, there's quite a bit. But the first text that ought to be mentioned is John 3: Jesus discussion with Nicodemus.

What do you think "born again" means? That's an adoption.


100% False. The word "Jew" doesn't even occur in the Bible until the Babylonian captivity, which was 200-ish years after the northern kingdom was utterly destroyed.

The Northern Kingdom was referred to as "Ephraim" in contrast to "Judah," as "Samaria" in contrast to "Jerusalem," and "House of Israel" in contrast to "House of Judah."

Don't trust me; check your Bible.


You haven't spent much time in the Old Testament, have you? The northern kingdom went into apostasy immediately after it was formed. Every king they ever had is listed as wicked; there were no righteous kings in the north. From the point of Ahab and Jezebel forward, the state religion of the northern kingdom was identical to that of Tyre. That is, they worshiped Baal and Ashterah.

What matters is that the NT says the OT always was about those who believed, not the race. It always was about the coming mission to the nations, so that when Messiah comes he does the work of starting a mission to the nations who are prepped and ready to work by the time Pentecost happens. The Stone laid in Zion always was a Person, not a cut of granite for a building. More to the point: it wasn't the "Zion" of Judea.

 

[Interplanner]

The Scriptures make it clear that in the future all those of the house of Israel will be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

The "fathers" of those referred to as the "house of Israel" were the Jews who were delivered out of Egypt. And those "fathers" were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And since their "fathers" are the physical descendants of Jacob that means that all those of the "house of Israel" will also be the physical descendants of Jacob. And they will all know the LORD, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, and they shall all have their sins forgiven.

Anyone in their right mind knows that this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled!

Why do you guys always take the passage NOT used by the apostles to explain your doctrines? When Paul showed that the race is not relevant to the Seed of Abraham (Christ and those in him), he did not use your fav passage.

Since Hebrews, which quoted Jer 31, does not validate your position anywhere, but says that that country was going to burn in the desert (it was) just like the patriarchal generation, and that the municipality in the Judean mountains never was the intended Jerusalem above, you need to completely redo your understanding.

 

[Interplanner]

You are wrong because the Scriptures make it clear that in the future all those of the house of Israel will be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

The "fathers" of those referred to as the "house of Israel" were the Jews who were delivered out of Egypt. And those "fathers" were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And since their "fathers" are the physical descendants of Jacob that means that all those of the "house of Israel" will also be the physical descendants of Jacob. And they will all know the LORD, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, and they shall all have their sins forgiven.

All that is clearly about the Israel of the Gospel. In Rom 9 or Gal 6, that would be those who are in it by faith, not by race.

 

[Right Divider]

All that is clearly about the Israel of the Gospel. In Rom 9 or Gal 6, that would be those who are in it by faith, not by race.

False teachers always fudge the terms to support their fairy tale.

 

[Interplanner]

False teachers always fudge the terms to support their fairy tale.

No, between Rom 9:6 and Gal 6:16's 'follow this rule' and again Rom 11:26's 'kai houtos' (in this manner), there is clearly an Israel of the Gospel--people who believe the Gospel. The race does not matter, not with verses like Jn 1:13 'not of natural descent' as our masthead.

The Stone laid in Zion was a person, not carved granite in the city in the Judean mountains. The Zion was 'above.'

 

[Right Divider]

No, between Rom 9:6 and Gal 6:16's 'follow this rule' and again Rom 11:26's 'kai houtos' (in this manner), there is clearly an Israel of the Gospel--people who believe the Gospel. The race does not matter, not with verses like Jn 1:13 'not of natural descent' as our masthead.

The Stone laid in Zion was a person, not carved granite in the city in the Judean mountains. The Zion was 'above.'

You follow many others in their bogus use of "not all Israel are Israel".... This verse is EXCLUDING unbelieving Israel from Israel and NOT making all believers Israel.

Just more scripture twisting to pervert the real meaning.

According to your bogus theory, Paul's heart's desire is to see the saved get saved:

Rom 10:1 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:1) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. ​

 

[Danoh]

Why do you guys always take the passage NOT used by the apostles to explain your doctrines? When Paul showed that the race is not relevant to the Seed of Abraham (Christ and those in him), he did not use your fav passage.

Since Hebrews, which quoted Jer 31, does not validate your position anywhere, but says that that country was going to burn in the desert (it was) just like the patriarchal generation, and that the municipality in the Judean mountains never was the intended Jerusalem above, you need to completely redo your understanding.

That is what YOU have concluded the Dispy is doing.

And keep in mind most of these fools on here don't even like me (for calling them out on how they treat others).

So it is not like you can easily allow yourself to conclude I am merely defending their actual practice out of some perception on my part that no, they are not up to no good by their Dispensationalism, as you continually assert about them.

The fact of their actual practice is that they are aware that Paul's is not Israel's same (co) "mission."

Israel's being...

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

When?

At some point after "the fullness of the Gentiles be come in..."

And then, only...

"After this..."

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Or as THEIR Prophet had ended his writing - about ISRAEL'S OWN Fullness one day - with...

Isaiah 66:12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 66:14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Or as the Lord had summarized that...

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Acts 17: 11, 12.

 

[Wick Stick]

No one is going to believe your little fairy tale.

Thank you for your well reasoned response. I can tell you put some thought into it. :cigar: