Romans 9:21 God is Sovereign No Free Will

Lowly one

New member
Guys I am not Calvinist or any denom. We don’t allow ourselves to consider that God controls everything. One man I seen said nothing man hates more than if God is 100% sovereign.Here is commentary straight from my Bible app from men explaining way smarter than me. There are many and they all see the same thing if people read the Bible for what it says.

Commentary for Romans 9:21 about God himself choosing as the potter creator to make vessels of honor(saved person) and dishonor(hardened condemned person) as He wants.

COMMENTARY EXPLAINING EXACTLY WHAT I TRY TO SAY

with respect to the vessels of honour, whom he appoints for his glory, he determines to create them; to suffer them to fall into sin, whereby they become polluted and guilty; to raise and recover them, by the obedience, sufferings, and death of his Son; to regenerate, renew, and sanctify them, by his Spirit and grace, and to bring them to eternal happiness; and hereby compass the aforesaid end, his own glory, the glorifying of his grace and mercy, in a way consistent with justice and holiness: with respect to the vessels of dishonour, whom he also appoints for the glorifying of himself, he determines to create them out of the same lump; to suffer them to fall into sin; to leave them in their sins, in the pollution and guilt of them, and to condemn them for them; and hereby gain his ultimate end, his own glory, glorifying the perfections of his power, justice, and holiness, without the least blemish to his goodness and mercy: now if a potter has power, for his own advantage and secular interest, to make out of the same clay what vessels he pleases; much more has God a power, out of the same mass and lump of creatureship, to appoint creatures he determines to make to his own glory;
2nd commentary
The truth, as it is in Jesus, abases man as nothing, as less than nothing, and advances God as sovereign Lord of all. Who art thou that art so foolish, so feeble, so unable to judge the Divine counsels? It becomes us to submit to him, not to reply against him. Would not men allow the infinite God the same sovereign right to manage the affairs of the creation, as the potter exercises in disposing of his clay, when of the same lump he makes one vessel to a more honourable, and one to a dishonorable use? God could do no wrong, however it might appear to men. God will make it appear that he hates sin. Also, he formed vessels filled with mercy. Sanctification of the soul for glory is Gods work. Sinners fit themselves for hell, but it is God who prepares saints for heaven; Would we know who these vessels of mercy are? Those whom God has called and chosen. Nor in God's exercising long-suffering, patience before he brings utter destruction upon them. As to all who love and fear God, HOWEVER SUCH TRUTHS APPEAR BEYOND THEIR REASON TO FATHOM, yet they should keep silence before him. we should adore his pardoning mercy and new-creating grace
 

Lowly one

New member
Does not the potter power over the clay; of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another to dishonour?

"The objection is founded on ignorance or misapprehension of the relation between God and His sinful creatures; supposing that He is under obligation to extend His grace to all, whereas He is under obligation to none.

Commentary
Man is in ruins: he is fallen; he has no claim on God; all deserve to die; on this mass, where none have any claim, he may bestow life on whom he pleases, he may exercise the right of a sovereign to pardon whom he pleases; or of a potter to mould any part of the useless mass to purposes of utility and beauty."
The lump or vessel of dishonor here denotes the mass of people, sinners, having no claim on God. The potter illustrates God's right over that mass, to dispose of it as seems good in his sight. The doctrine of the passage is, that people have no right to complain if God bestows his blessings where and when he chooses.
 

Lowly one

New member
I don’t want to know this. If it’s true we all want to be chosen I would want us all to be with and have God. I obsess over this because God showed me I have no hope. 😭 I would not want to condemn myself ya know so it wouldn’t make sense to make up such a thing. Guys I don’t want to go to hell. I was trying so hard to obey God and pray even tho I was so messed up. And later he showed me why I felt so deeply rejected and condemned all my life. No matter what I did he wouldn’t let me have his love and grace.
 

Lowly one

New member
Eternal is too brutal it’s just too brutal for us. I don’t want to be born sin or to sin it’s not worth it. But even if u want to get sin out you have no chance without God choosing you for mercy. He gives instructions to repent and do all these things as the general message to the masses and through those masses he picks out his chosen vessels of mercy. Even tho I repented there was never confirmation from the spirit or direction like I was doing it all myself. Believing but I’ve listened to those who have the spirit it’s different. Those that become tribulation saints Gid chooses them.

IF God forgives all who repents then it would never say “GRANTED” repentance.

philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not lonly to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

2 Timothy 2:25
in the hope that God may GRANT them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.
 

Lowly one

New member
I don’t want to be right oh I wish it was different. Guys it’s so bad for most of us in the world 😭 because I know you believe different but God took people to eternity above and below. I don’t want to be an evil spirit. I wanted to be His. He showed people 98% of world don’t make it. He showed that 9 of 10 Christians don’t. I’m just saying what he showed multiple people. Guys it’s so different then what everyone thinks. If everyone knew the real truth. This is why it’s so hard cause everything is by faith. God does things like in the Bible now but not where everyone sees it all the time.

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?”
 

Lowly one

New member
Right Divider I don’t know how he does it but he does. The commentators explained. He controls Satan and the demons. He may use them to create sin in people. I dunno. It says clear tho he makes the vessels of honor(saved)and
dishonor(Condemned). And then he says he is God and man has no right to object. Very crystal clear. It doesn’t say that the vessels are making themselves. I can show you where he says he creates every king governor and authority on earth. Every nation. Man does none of it. If that’s true it’s mathematically impossible unless Gid cobtrols every little detail of every single thing. We are puppets and in a movie for Gid that’s being played out.

God does everything as he pleases for his pleasure and purpose ACCORDING TO HIS GOOD PLEASURE WHICH HE HATH PURPOSED IN HIMSELF. Ephesians 1:9.

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are counted as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?”

Nanja and your friend will you guys explain how Gid controls everything and everyone even evil evil people Satan demons?

Ive seen it so clear He controls everything. Mathematically prophecy being fulfilled isn’t possible if god doesn’t control everything.
 

Lowly one

New member
Right Divider, you mentioned King (God) is sovereign over land but does not control the citizens.

He CONTROLS the king
Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he wants.
He CONTROLS the people
Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.
Jeremiah 10:23
I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
Proverbs 20:24
A man's steps are from the Lord; how then can man understand his way?
He CONTROLS the nations
so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the basest(contemptible) of men.”
Daniel 2:20
21And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings:
Job 12:23
“He makes the nations great, then destroys He made
Acts
from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
Isaiah 40:17
All the nations are as nothing before Him; He regards them as nothingness and emptiness.



Isaiah 45:7
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Right Divider, you mentioned King (God) is sovereign over land but does not control the citizens.

He CONTROLS the king
Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he wants.
He CONTROLS the people
Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.
Jeremiah 10:23
I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
Proverbs 20:24
A man's steps are from the Lord; how then can man understand his way?
He CONTROLS the nations
so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the basest(contemptible) of men.”
Daniel 2:20
21And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings:
Job 12:23
“He makes the nations great, then destroys He made
Acts
from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
Isaiah 40:17
All the nations are as nothing before Him; He regards them as nothingness and emptiness.

Isaiah 45:7
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Anyone can find a few verses that can be made to "agree" with their doctrine. The cults do this all the time.

Your "god" is nothing but a puppet master and NOT the God of the Bible.

Again, God is NOT the author of sin. He does NOT control peoples EVERY ACTION.

God creates people to make choices for good or evil.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Anyone can find a few verses that can be made to "agree" with their doctrine. The cults do this all the time.

Your "god" is nothing but a puppet master and NOT the God of the Bible.

Again, God is NOT the author of sin. He does NOT control peoples EVERY ACTION.

God creates people to make choices for good or evil.

People make choices, the ones God determined they make.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
People make choices, the ones God determined they make.

Hi and yes people make choices , LIKE buying CARS , Burgers , HOMES ETCccccccccc

The only people that HAD FREE WILL were ANGEL and Adam and Eve !!

Then choices are made , BAD and GOOD during your life time as 1cor 3:12-15 !!

dan p
 

Lowly one

New member
Right Divider,

I ask you to be honest and REALLY examine the verses. They are factual statements. So if factual statements they cannot be contradicted. I am not a calvinist I was shown this independent of Calvinist and never been to their church. Beloved57 do you have any clarity on how that works and why all the verses that seem to appear the whole world can choose? I can explain one part is that people do not read with sensitive eyes of examination or research. They have a comfortable doctrine that they make the text fit to or shrug it off. Words elect, chosen, appointed, granted, are there for a reason meaning what they say. And people don’t choose or elect themself.

Those verses tho are proclamations about God. It is extremely painful for me this truth cause we are created by God, we need Him desperately, He threatens hell, but yet even if we try to obey or want him or love Him, our hopes or effort to obey does not matter. It is the most brutal worst news for the world unless you are the small few God shows favor to and chooses. That’s why Gid says in Romans 9 “O man who are you to object to God” He says He has the right to make vessels for heaven or hell if he wants to. Read it yourself. And He says all the inhabitants of the earth are nothing to him and the nations too. It’s brutal.

Those are not a few verses. There is soooo many more. God is making factual statements when it says He controls the heart of the king. That He creates every nation since time began. That he appoints every authority from king to governor for every nation. Then for the common man he states that man has plans in their mind but only the purpose for them Gid has happens. And that God directs his steps. These are factual statements. ARE YOU GOOD AT MATH? If he controls hearts of Kings, appoints all Kings governors ahd authorities, creates all nations their boundaries and how long they exist since time began, directs the common mans steps, and all prophecies will be fulfilled, then it’s impossible unless God controls every detail of every single thing. The world is nothing but puppets and a movie as the verse says all things according to Gods pleasure.

Romans 13:1
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
John 19:11
11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above
Acts 17:26
He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
 

Lowly one

New member
Right Divider,

I ask you to be honest and REALLY examine the verses. They are factual statements. So if factual statements they cannot be contradicted. I am not a calvinist I was shown this independent of Calvinist and never been to their church. Beloved57 do you have any clarity on how that works and why all the verses that seem to appear the whole world can choose? I can explain one part is that people do not read with sensitive eyes of examination or research. They have a comfortable doctrine that they make the text fit to or shrug it off. Words elect, chosen, appointed, granted, are there for a reason meaning what they say. And people don’t choose or elect themself.

Those verses tho are proclamations about God. It is extremely painful for me this truth cause we are created by God, we need Him desperately, He threatens hell, but yet even if we try to obey or want him or love Him, our hopes or effort to obey does not matter. It is the most brutal worst news for the world unless you are the small few God shows favor to and chooses. That’s why Gid says in Romans 9 “O man who are you to object to God” He says He has the right to make vessels for heaven or hell if he wants to. Read it yourself. And He says all the inhabitants of the earth are nothing to him and the nations too. It’s brutal.

Those are not a few verses. There is soooo many more. God is making factual statements when it says He controls the heart of the king. That He creates every nation since time began. That he appoints every authority from king to governor for every nation. Then for the common man he states that man has plans in their mind but only the purpose for them Gid has happens. And that God directs his steps. These are factual statements. ARE YOU GOOD AT MATH? If he controls hearts of Kings, appoints all Kings governors ahd authorities, creates all nations their boundaries and how long they exist since time began, directs the common mans steps, and all prophecies will be fulfilled, then it’s impossible unless God controls every detail of every single thing. The world is nothing but puppets and a movie as the verse says all things according to Gods pleasure.

Romans 13:1
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
John 19:11
11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above
Acts 17:26
He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Lo

​​​​​​
Beloved57 do you have any clarity on how that works and why all the verses that seem to appear the whole world can choose?

The world can choose but the choices will always be in accordance with God's Sovereign will and pleasure. They don't realize it but it's true all the same Acts 4:26-28

The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

[SUP]28 [/SUP]For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done
 

Nanja

Well-known member
People make choices, the ones God determined they make.

Sure you right Brother !

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Sure you right Brother !

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Praise the Lord.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Sure you right Brother !

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

You two constantly read your ideas into the scripture instead of understanding what the scripture actually says.
 
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