ECT Revelation 18: 4 - Come Away From Her My People - and the Principle of the Remnant

northwye

New member
Revelation 18: 4 - Come Away From Her My People - and the Principle of the Remnant

Revelation 18: 4 says "For all nations have drunken of the wine of the
wrath of her fornication. And the kings of the earth have committed
fornication with her and her merchants are waxed rich of the abundance of
her pleasures.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven say: come away from her my people
that ye be not partakers in her sins that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins are gone up to heaven and God hath remembered her
wickedness" Revelation 18: 3-5

What or who is "her'? And what are the people belonging to God called out of?

Revelation 17: 1-11 describes religion in metaphoric language, calling it
"her" and saying of her that "And he carried me a way into the wilderness
in the Spirit. And I saw a woman sit upon a rose colored beast full of
names of blasphemy which had ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and rose color and decked with gold
precious stone and pearls and had a cup of gold in her hand full of
abominations and filthiness of her fornication.
5 And in her forehead was a name written a mystery Great Babylon the mother
of whoredoms and abominations of the earth."

During the Reformation and soon after many Protestant reformers
interpreted Revelation 17: 3-6 to refer only to the Roman Catholic
Church. But Revelation 17: 1-11 is also about other religions which
teach false doctrines, such as the old Babylonian religion, and Talmudic
Judaism. Religious systems of false doctrines calling themselves
Christians in the period of the church age after the Reformation may also
be included in Revelation 17: 1-11.

In Revelation 17: 7-11 there is a difficult metaphoric description of the
"woman,," religion,, and of the beast that carries her. "I will show ye
the mystery of the woman and of the beast that bareth her which hath seven
heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou seest was and is not and shall ascend out of the
bottomless pit and shall go into perdition and they that dwell on the earth
shall wonder (whose names are not written in the book of life from ye
beginning of the world) when they behold the beast that was and is not.
9 And here is a mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains
on which the woman sitteth.
10 they are also seven kings. Five are fallen and one is and another is not
yet come. When he cometh he must continue a space.
11 And the beast that was and is not is even the eight and is one of the
seven and shall go into destruction."

One interpretation of Revelation 17: 7-11 is that this metaphoric text is
describing spiritual states, where the seventh state is being in Christ
Jesus and in salvation,, and the implied sixth state, below the seventh
state of being in Christ, is man without Christ and without salvation (God
created man on the sixth day, and God sanctified the seventh day in Genesis
1: 31 and Genesis 2: 1-3).. Man going out of the seventh day, which is the
spiritual condition of salvation,, into the eighth spiritual state, of man
creating his own religion, though his own made up doctrines, is man going
out of salvation.

Revelation 18: 4 is in Revelation Chapter 18, on a metaphoric
construct called Babylon. "Her" in Revelation 18: 3-5,, which God's people
are called to come out of, is Babylon. How to we know what that Babylon as
a metaphor represents?

Revelation 18: 23 says"...and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride
shall be heard no more in thee: for thy merchants were ye great men of ye
earth. And with thine enchantment were deceived all nations:": This is from
the Tyndale New Testament.

So Babylon represents something where the voice of Christ and of his
people, the elect in him, were once heard, but are heard no more.

The King James Version for Revelation 18: 23 has "And the light of a candle
shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of
the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the
great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

The Greek Textus Receptus for Revelation 18: 23 has και φως λυχνου ου μη
φανη εν σοι ετι και φωνη νυμφιου και νυμφης ου μη ακουσθη εν σοι ετι οτι οι
εμποροι σου ησαν οι μεγιστανες της γης οτι εν τη φαρμακεια σου επλανηθησαν
παντα τα εθνη

και φως λυχνου ου μη φανη εν σοι ετι translated says "and the light of a
lamp (or candle) may shine in thee no longer."

The Tyndale New Testament leaves out "And the light of a candle shall shine
no more at all in thee;" Again, what is it where the light of Christ once
shone but shines no more?

Does it mean that the light of Christ once shined in the world but no
longer shines in it? But before concluding that this is what is meant,
look at the principle of the remnant. The light of Christ may no loner
shine in the multitude of the Church system, but still shines from the smaller remnant. And the
voice of Christ is not heard any more in the religious system but is heard
from the remnant.

In history God has several times raised up a remnant, which is faithful to
him, and has used that remnant to begin a new group of his people. The
multitude, which has gone into false doctrines and false practices, and
away from God, is cut off from God. That multitude, though, has tried to
get back its position with God.*

At the great flood of Noah, God cut off the large multitude of people and
began again with a small remnant, Noah, Noah's wife, his three sons and
their wives. "And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his
sons' wives with him:" Genesis 8: 18 "Which sometime were disobedient, when
once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was
a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." I
Peter 3: 20 Then in I Kings 19 during the time of the apostasy of Ahab and
Jezebel, God told Elijah in I Kings 19: 18, "Yet I have left me seven
thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every
mouth which hath not kissed him." God had preserved a remnant even in the
time of the apostasy of Ahab and Jezebel. In Romans 11: 4, as part of his
statement on a remnant of Old Covenant Israel accepting Christ, and
becoming members of the elect by grace, Paul quotes I Kings 19: 18. Paul
says that in the remnant, God did not cast away all his people. But as
Romans 11: 17-20 say, God did cut off all of Old Covenant Israel which were
in unbelief, who rejected Christ.

Again in the Babylonian captivity of
seventy years as judgment for falling away into false doctrines and
practices the multitude of Old Covenant Israel was left in false doctrines
and in captivity while a remnant was sent back to Jerusalem under
Zerubbabel, Jeshua and Ezra to began Old Covenant Israel anew.

When Christ
appeared in human flesh and went to the Cross, God fulfilled the prophecies
of II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16, and Jeremiah 18: 1-6 to turn Jerusalem
(Israel) upside down and to make Israel again "another vessel, as seemed
good to the potter to make it." And in Acts 10 God used Peter to bring the
Gospel to Cornelius, a non-Jew, and his people, beginning the fulfillment
of the prophecy of Hosea 2: 23 to make a people who were not before the
people of God, the people of God. In other words, non-Jews were to be
brought in to Israel reborn in Jesus Christ. This cutting off of the
multitude who were following the false doctrines as leaven of the Pharisees
(Matthew 16: 6, Luke 12: 1), and beginning a new Israel in the remnant of
Romans 11: 5 was a major transformation of Israel from the Old Covenant
which operated in the physical to a New Covenant which operated in the
spiritual. That which was physical under the Old Covenant - physical
bloodline from Abraham, physical circumcision, a physical temple building,
physical animal sacrifice, etc - was all done away with as shadows (Hebrews
10: 1, Colossians 2: 17). That which is in the spiritual - in Christ Jesus
- became the substance. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in
drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath
days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
Colossians 2: 16-17*
 
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Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
The judgments against religious Babylon occur before Christ returns, in the trumpets--

Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. (warned in Rev.ch 14)and spoken of by Jesus here--

Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.


The last of the empire of Babylon which falls in Rev.ch 18 is a physical commercial empire, the same as was formulated in the book of Daniel, and is destroyed AFTER Christ returns--

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice,(Rev.ch 10) saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

LA
 

northwye

New member
To say that Babylon is "a physical commercial empire, the same as was formulated in the book of Daniel," would protect the church, from ekklesia, from being that thing in which the light of a candle - the light of Christ - once shown but shines no longer, and from being the place where the voice of Christ and his people were once heard, but are no longer heard.

And where in Daniel is Babylon a physical commercial empire?

In Matthew 13: 24-30 in the parable of the wheat and the tares Christ said to let then both grow together and later the tares would be separated from the wheat. And the implication of the falling away or apostasy in II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is that as the falling away goes on the tares will come to outnumber the wheat in the kingdom of God. Matthew uses ekklesia only three times.

Peter in I Peter 5: 2-3 talks about the flock of God in saying "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3.Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock."

The Capital C Church as it has come to be known dates back to the Roman Catholic Capital C Church in which a priest class rules over the beliefs of the Church members.

And William Tyndale was a greater member of what was then a very small remnant than were Martin Luther, John Calvin and Calvin's successors such as Theodore Beza.

Peter in I Peter 5: 2-3 is critical of what has become defined as the Church in which an elite class of priests and preachers rule over the beliefs of those in the congregations. Remember that Tyndale consistently used congregation, not church, for ekklesia and that Theodore Beza in his New Testament translation which had a large influence upon the Geneva Bible changed Tyndale's use of congregation to church, returning to the Catholic use in the very early English New Testament of 1382. John Wycliffe in his 1382 English translation of the Latin ecclesia used chirche. For example, Wycliffe says for Acts 6: 1, "But Saul was consentynge to his deth. And greet persecucioun was maad that dai in the chirche, that was in Jerusalem." The 1382 Wycliffe NT was a Catholic text,

There is no use of ekklesia in Peter's two letters which is interesting because Paul uses ekklesia many times.
 
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Patrick Cronin

New member
When revelation was written, the known world was under the control of the pagan Roman empire, led by emperors who were not Christiana. At that time Rome was the symbol of opposition to Christ and His Church and the bastion of idolatry. It is a gross anachronism and I suggest, dishonest, to identify that image of the 'scarlet woman' from Revelation, with the Christian church of the time which was suffering severe persecution and many were being martyred. In particular most of the early bishops of Rome died as martyrs. They were certainly not known for their debauchery!. This also shows the fallacy of private interpretation of the Scriptures which can be (and is) used to prove or condemn whatever the interpreter thinks fit.
 

northwye

New member
"It is a gross anachronism and I suggest, dishonest, to identify that image of the 'scarlet woman' from Revelation, with the Christian church of the time which was suffering severe persecution and many were being martyred."

No one is saying that the majority of people in the home congregations of the late First Century were apostates. The woman in Revelation 17: 1-11 is religion, which teaches false doctrines, as the Protestants of the Reformation saw the Catholic Church of their time to be represented there. But there have been other religions teaching false doctrines.
 

Interplanner

New member
"It is a gross anachronism and I suggest, dishonest, to identify that image of the 'scarlet woman' from Revelation, with the Christian church of the time which was suffering severe persecution and many were being martyred."

No one is saying that the majority of people in the home congregations of the late First Century were apostates. The woman in Revelation 17: 1-11 is religion, which teaches false doctrines, as the Protestants of the Reformation saw the Catholic Church of their time to be represented there. But there have been other religions teaching false doctrines.


I don't think you've drawn enough connection between its being responsible for all the death of many saints and Mt 23. As you look through Acts you find that Judaism was well situated in many Roman cities and was able to damage the Christians with Roman admin power from those positions. This is prob closer to the harlot riding on the beast. And then the beast destroys her, which is the destruction of Jerusalem.
 

northwye

New member
"I don't think you've drawn enough connection between its being responsible for all the death of many saints and Mt 23. As you look through Acts you find that Judaism was well situated in many Roman cities and was able to damage the Christians with Roman admin power from those positions. This is prob closer to the harlot riding on the beast. And then the beast destroys her, which is the destruction of Jerusalem. "

I can see how the dispensationalists could see some trace of Preterism in this statement. It depends on your emphasis. Certainly, a prophecy written in the late First Century could have had some fulfillment at a time not too far away from that time. But to say or imply that the prophecy is exhausted in an early fulfillment is wrong and would seem to be following the historical view on prophecy.

The people interested in the Remnant - who operate largely on the Internet - I have been part of are Futurists, though they mostly are critics of dispensationalism and many of them came out of it. And it is possible that some of them retain parts of the dispensationalist view of Bible prophecy, such as the tribulation of Matthew 24 being a definite period of time near the end of the age. Though the Remnant people I have in mind reject the pre-trib rapture theory, they may hold on to the tribulation period as being an event near the end of the age. This might be seen as being a part of their Futurism, as a holdover from the dispensationalism they were taught in the churches (ekklesia) they attended.

And relevant to the Futurist position of the people now interested in the Remnant is Revelation 12: 14-17. This text in metaphoric language is about a conflict between the serpent-dragon and the Remnant.

"And the dragon cast out of his mouth water after the woman as it had been a river because she would have been caught of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman: and went and made war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. " Revelation 12: 15-17

The woman is the "mother of us all" in Galatians 4: 26, the Jerusalem which is above, and is free, in contrast to the Jerusalem in Galatians 4: 25 which now is and is in bondage with her children.

When is this prophecy of Revelation 12: 15-17 fulfilled?
 
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Interplanner

New member
"I don't think you've drawn enough connection between its being responsible for all the death of many saints and Mt 23. As you look through Acts you find that Judaism was well situated in many Roman cities and was able to damage the Christians with Roman admin power from those positions. This is prob closer to the harlot riding on the beast. And then the beast destroys her, which is the destruction of Jerusalem. "

I can see how the dispensationalists could see some trace of Preterism in this statement. It depends on your emphasis. Certainly, a prophecy written in the late First Century could have had some fulfillment at a time not too far away from that time. But to say or imply that the prophecy is exhausted in an early fulfillment is wrong and would seem to be following the historical view on prophecy.

The people interested in the Remnant - who operate largely on the Internet - I have been part of are Futurists, though they mostly are critics of dispensationalism and many of them came out of it.


Yet the first page says it is now, at hand, quickly, immediately.

Mt 23:35 is echoed in Rev 18:24
 

northwye

New member
http://www.end-times-prophecy.org/futurism-preterism-historicism.html

"PRETERISM - This is the belief that the apostle John wrote Revelation as a book containing a very brief view of history, describing events that would end by AD 70, with the destruction of Jerusalem. People who hold to this view believe John is describing the challenges of the early church in overcoming the Antichrist power of pagan Rome and the influence of Judaism."

"HISTORICISM - This is the belief that John was writing future history as it would unfold from his day to the end of time, detailing the events of the church and major world powers all the way through to the second coming of Christ. Interestingly, this is the view that most of the great Protestant reformers used in their teachings."

"FUTURISM - This is the belief that John wrote primarily about events that have yet to occur, even in our day. Including the future rise of the Antichrist. Futurism is the interpretation put forth by the popular Left Behind series and is supported by the majority of mainstream Protestant Christians. Interestingly, this theory was first put forth by a Roman Catholic Jesuit, Francisco Ribera in the late 1500's. And there is very good reason for this view to come about. And that is because of the great Protestant reformation just beginning in the 1500's, which exposed the Papal Church of Rome as the main Bible antichrist system. So this theory of futurism was invented by the Jesuits to divert people's minds from seeing that the Roman Church is the antichrist and that great whore which Revelation describes. Preterism also does the same job and was invented for the same reason."

It looks like the view seen in post number 8 above, "Yet the first page says it is now, at hand, quickly, immediately.

Mt 23:35 is echoed in Rev 18:24" fits the PRETERIST view at least according to this system.
 

Interplanner

New member
http://www.end-times-prophecy.org/futurism-preterism-historicism.html

"PRETERISM - This is the belief that the apostle John wrote Revelation as a book containing a very brief view of history, describing events that would end by AD 70, with the destruction of Jerusalem. People who hold to this view believe John is describing the challenges of the early church in overcoming the Antichrist power of pagan Rome and the influence of Judaism."

"HISTORICISM - This is the belief that John was writing future history as it would unfold from his day to the end of time, detailing the events of the church and major world powers all the way through to the second coming of Christ. Interestingly, this is the view that most of the great Protestant reformers used in their teachings."

"FUTURISM - This is the belief that John wrote primarily about events that have yet to occur, even in our day. Including the future rise of the Antichrist. Futurism is the interpretation put forth by the popular Left Behind series and is supported by the majority of mainstream Protestant Christians. Interestingly, this theory was first put forth by a Roman Catholic Jesuit, Francisco Ribera in the late 1500's. And there is very good reason for this view to come about. And that is because of the great Protestant reformation just beginning in the 1500's, which exposed the Papal Church of Rome as the main Bible antichrist system. So this theory of futurism was invented by the Jesuits to divert people's minds from seeing that the Roman Church is the antichrist and that great whore which Revelation describes. Preterism also does the same job and was invented for the same reason."

It looks like the view seen in post number 8 above, "Yet the first page says it is now, at hand, quickly, immediately.

Mt 23:35 is echoed in Rev 18:24" fits the PRETERIST view at least according to this system.



Paul does not ever hint that the world would go beyond the destruction of Jerusalem; it would end right after that. See the middle of I Cor 7 about the shortness of time. In a chapter about whether to get married or be in business.
 
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