Real Science Friday's 2012 List of Not So Old Things

Alate_One

Well-known member
It is rock that is made in hours. You said it can't be done. I showed you it can be done. It is made by man with things naturally occuring in nature.
This is rather ironic since when discussing evolution, your sort asserts that the production of many breeds of dogs, horses etc is not evidence of evolution because man was involved.

Now you claim because humans can go through a particular process to create materials that will undergo chemical reactions to allow them to harden quickly, you then say it's evidence the same thing can happen naturally.

How? We have no idea. We know the mechanism for artificial and natural selection is very close, but this process . . . no idea.
 

Stripe

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How? We have no idea. We know the mechanism for artificial and natural selection is very close, but this process . . . no idea.

Remove the water from a cement-rich sediment layer.
 

lucaspa

Member
For a moment let's get back to the top of the OP, which were the partial preservation of "soft tissue" in fossils that are over 10 million years old.

Hypotheses are tested in huge bundles, not singly. In terms of the T. rex fossil there are 2 important hypotheses at work:
1. The T. rex fossil is 65 million years old.
2. Soft tissues do not survive after a few million years.

The authors specifically state that second hypothesis in the second paper of the series on the T. rex fossil:

"It has long been assumed that the process of fossilization results in the destruction of virtually all original organic components of an organism, and it has been hypothesized that original molecules will be either lost or altered to the point of nonrecognition over relatively short time spans (well under a million
years) (1–7)."

Now, the first author on the paper is Mary Sweitzer. She was, at the time, a graduate student under John Horner. They were looking at the femur and, specifically, at the bone lining the medullary canal (marrow cavity). There is a thin layer of trabecular bone -- the endosteal bone -- that lines the circumference of the marrow cavity just under the cortical bone.

All bone is a biphasic material: organic matrix and inorganic (rock) mineral -- hydroxyapetite. Notice that no soft tissue outside the skeleton remained: no muscles, nerves, blood vessels, heart, intestines, lungs, etc. and this is the innermost layer of the bone.
So what Dr. Schweitzer did was demineralize the bone -- removed the hydroxyapetite with a dilute solution of EDTA. This chelates the calcium in the hydroxyapetite, thus dissolving the mineral. What they are talking about is the organic matrix of the bone. The "soft tissue" is actually the organic matrix of the femur. Within the cortical bone, there are structured called "Haversian canals" and these consist of long tubes within the bone. Within the tubes are blood vessels, and fragments these blood vessels are the ones Dr. Schweizter was able to isolate. Also embedded in the bone are cells called osteocytes, and apparently some of these were also partially intact.

What is striking when you read the papers is that the authors do not consider that the data questions the first hypothesis. IOW, they don't consider this discovery, or previous discoveries of the organic matrix of bone in Cretaceous fossils, to be evidence that the fossils are young. Dr. Schweitzer is also an evangelical Christian and has steadfastly maintained that her discovery does NOT show the fossils to be young.

Instead, it is the second hypothesis that is falsified. Under most conditions, bacteria and other microbes have access to the interior of the bone, and it is these that destroy the organic matrix. But in some rare circumstances, this does not happen. Now, proteins -- particularly collagen (which is the major constituent of the organic matrix) -- are very stable molecules. The peptide bonds are not easily hydrolyzed by water and the very tight helix structure of collagen does not allow water into the molecule to begin with. Even if collagen is cleaved in one or two places, the structure is such that it preserves its eleasticity. Think of a very long, very thick rope. Even if you cut some of the strands in a couple of places, the rope itself is going to behave pretty much the same. Same here. For the blood vessels, the collagen is type IV.

"Mesozoic fossils, particularly dinosaur fossils, are known to be extremely well preserved histologically and occasionally retain molecular information (6, 17, 18), the presence of which is closely linked to morphological preservation (19). Vascular microstructures that may be derived from original blood materials of Cretaceous organisms have also been reported (14–16)."

That's from the paper.

In the next paper Sweitzer and Horner propose chemical mechanisms to account for the presence of the collagens. Collagens crosslink, both within a fibril and between fibrils. This increases their mechanical strength. It will also protect them from degradation.

"We hypothesize that these molecular fragments are preserved because reactive sites on the original protein molecules became irreversibly cross-linked, both to similar molecules and to mineral or exogenous organic components. These cross-linking reactions may have been initiated by unstable metal ions that formed free radicals
(30, 31), which in turn reacted with organic molecules to form polymers (6, 7, 9, 32).We propose that the unstable metal ions were derived from the post mortem degradation of iron-containing dinosaur biomolecules such as hemoglobin, myoglobin,
and possibly cytochromes (9, 31). Once stabilized by these cross-linking reactions, the molecules were no longer available as substrates for further degradative reactions."

Notice the numbers in parentheses. Those are references and refer to other papers with data that support the statement. So their hypothesis has experimental support.

They also note that preseveration of the organic matrix happens in sandstone. This is special and there is a reasons such fossilization would preserve the organic matrix:
"Another contributing factor in the retention of original mineral may be that
apatite is stabilized in the presence of calcite (33). Sandstones surrounding MOR 1125 contain abundant calcite cements."

So, the original hydroxyapetite is not replaced during fossilization. Since they propose that the organic molecules also bind to the hydroxyapetite, that retention helps the proteins survive.

It is the second hypothesis -- that "the process of fossilization results in the destruction of virtually all original organic components of an organism" -- that has been shown to be wrong. NOT the age of the fossils. It is not valid to try to use the presence of bone organic matrix to say that the fossils are "young", particularly young enough to fit into a young earth theory.​
 

lucaspa

Member
It is rock that is made in hours. You said it can't be done. I showed you it can be done. It is made by man with things naturally occuring in nature.

Actually, that is false. The cements used by humans today do NOT naturally occur in nature. For instance, the most common type of modern cement was "burning septaria – nodules that are found in certain clay deposits, and that contain both clay minerals and calcium carbonate. The burnt nodules were ground to a fine powder." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cement

That is not natural. It involves 2 steps -- the burning and grinding to a fine powder -- that are not going to happen in nature.

What is more, the components of "rock that is made in hours" are NOT present in the geographical strata we are talking about. THOSE rocks cannot be made in hours.
 

lucaspa

Member
They weren't made in hours. But the fact remains, all that is required is the removal of the water to lithify a sedimentary rock.

That's not the "fact". You are using formation of rock by humans when there is cement present. But there is no cement like those in human concretes in sedimentary rock. Those cements are a product of human manufacture, not found in nature.

However, in general, "all that is required is the removal of water" is not correct. For a brief overview, see here: http://itc.gsw.edu/faculty/bcarter/physgeol/sedrx/lith.htm
http://geology.about.com/od/glossaryofgeology/g/Lithification-Definition.htm

Removal of water is not sufficient for lithification. Compaction is also necessary, as is cementation.

Lithification takes longer than the year of the Flood allowed in YEC.

BTW, if you looked at the website I posted, you will see that even in human concrete the water is not always removed. Instead, it participates in the chemical reactions of the cementing process.
 

lucaspa

Member
I had not seen the claim of jellyfish fossils for young earth before. I tracked the reference down on Enyart's website, and he mentions the author of the article and a link to an abstract. However, it turns out that the entire article is online and available in PDF format. I downloaded the file. The paper is:
Stranded on a Late Cambrian shoreline: Medusae from central Wisconsin.​

Geology; February 2002; v. 30; no. 2; p. 147–150.

"In the Krukowski flagstone quarry, at least seven flat-lying planar
bed surfaces contain hundreds of medusae impressions preserved in​
convex and concave epirelief"

Read that carefully. It means that there are 7 different "bedding planes" that have mass large numbers of jellyfish. In NO case are the fossils "polystrate". Each mass stranding is in a single layer. The pictures in Figure 3 show this clearly. The "ripples" are not different layers, but ripples in the single layer. It is wave ripples preserved when the layer lithified.

"First few layers of sediment deposited around and over medusae impressions often exhibit multiple generations of ripples (C); together with absence of ripples within central sediment mound, these features suggest survival of intact carcasses through multiple tidal cycles."

You have multiple cycles of the tides, not multiple layers. Bottom line: these are NOT polystrate fossils.
 

Stripe

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Removal of water is not sufficient for lithification. Compaction is also necessary, as is cementation.
:think: Sounds suspiciously like some preparation and chemical additions are required to make cemen... rock.

Lithification takes longer than the year of the Flood allowed in YEC.
Nope.

You've just changed the discussion and hidden your assumptions again.

Compaction only takes as long as the energy imparted into the strata takes. Addition of cement only takes as long as the mixing of the cement-bearing water with the sediment takes.

There is no need to say either of those must take millions of years.
BTW, if you looked at the website I posted, you will see that even in human concrete the water is not always removed. Instead, it participates in the chemical reactions of the cementing process.
Water is removed. And this is utterly irrelevant.
 

gcthomas

New member
Water is removed. And this is utterly irrelevant. :eek:

Water IS NOT removed during the formation of rocks, since it uniformly happens below the water table!!

There IS no dry place there, so no removal of water happens. Grains of rock are not stuck together by 'drying', since if that were true then dried out mud would be no harder when wet then mud-stone. Try it out. (oohh, the power of experimenting!)

There is nothing quite like the feeling of simple denial, is there, when you are getting so far out of your depth in technical discussions? :sheep:
 

Stripe

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Water IS NOT removed during the formation of rocks, since it uniformly happens below the water table!!
Below water, at least. :chuckle:

There IS no dry place there, so no removal of water happens. Grains of rock are not stuck together by 'drying', since if that were true then dried out mud would be no harder when wet then mud-stone. Try it out. (oohh, the power of experimenting!)
No. they're stuck together with cement. Now, how do you circulate cement so thoroughly through the sediment when the water is restricted to specific channels as it is underground? :think:

Seems to me a sandstone (say) deposit needed a cement-rich water deposition site and rapid removal of that water. No way that happens below the water table.

There is nothing quite like the feeling of simple denial, is there, when you are getting so far out of your depth in technical discussions? :sheep:
I'm not. :idunno:

Looks likes Strike needs to brush up on some geology basics.
:yawn:

Ever studied geology?
 

gcthomas

New member
Below water, at least. :chuckle:
You think that there is a BOTTOM to the water table?! No rock can be squashed enough to exclude all the water. Sedimentary rock is wet ALL the way down, from either sea water or ground water. Even 7km deep granite is found to be saturated in the Russian deep bore hole.

Now, how do you circulate cement so thoroughly through the sediment when the water is restricted to specific channels as it is underground? :think:
False assumption. The whole of the sediment has water and movement is not restricted to channels, except in impervious rocks, but even then minerals can be dissolved and redeposited to stick the grains together, since water is present.

Seems to me a sandstone (say) deposit needed a cement-rich water deposition site and rapid removal of that water. No way that happens below the water table.
The tap water in my house is 'cement rich' from the look of the kettle element. Mineral water drawn from boreholes is 'cement rich' by definition (soluble mineral = potential cement). And concrete NEEDS water for the hydration process. Sedimentary rocks need the water to deposit the cementing compounds. Pay attention: it only works like this when it is below the water table.

Ever studied geology?
At least one of us has, and I can't believe it is you, given your comments. :bang:
 

Stripe

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You think that there is a BOTTOM to the water table?!
:AMR:

Uh, yes. The water table is just the surface described by water at atmospheric pressure. The bottom of it is the same as the top. :)

Not really sure why you asked that, though. I didn't say anything about the water table. :idunno:

No rock can be squashed enough to exclude all the water.
I think you're going to get far too pedantic with such qualifications. Groundwater that is going to be relevant will have to be groundwater that is capable of being replaced or displaced.

Sedimentary rock is wet ALL the way down, from either sea water or ground water. Even 7km deep granite is found to be saturated in the Russian deep bore hole.
I don't know who you're trying to argue with. :idunno:

False assumption. The whole of the sediment has water and movement is not restricted to channels
I don't know about that. :)

except in impervious rocks, but even then minerals can be dissolved and redeposited to stick the grains together, since water is present.
:chuckle:

Now why on Earth would a sedimentary rock be impervious? :think:

The tap water in my house is 'cement rich' from the look of the kettle element.
Nope. That's probably just a case of long accumulation times and rapid removal of the water.

If you dump sand into your tap water you can leave it as long as you like and squash it as much as you like. Guaranteed, once the water is removed, the result will be no more rock-like than when you started.

Mineral water drawn from boreholes is 'cement rich' by definition (soluble mineral = potential cement). And concrete NEEDS water for the hydration process. Sedimentary rocks need the water to deposit the cementing compounds. Pay attention: it only works like this when it is below the water table.
I thought you said there was no bottom to the water table. :chuckle:

And, unfortunately for your explanation, deposition of sediments doesn't happen below the water table. If you want to make a sedimentary rock it needs to be made above the existing rock in cement-rich water.

At least one of us has
I'll take that as a "Yes". To what level?
 
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gcthomas

New member
Now why on Earth would a sedimentary rock be impervious? :think:
Some sediments become impervious after formation due to the presence of salty water which causes a base-exchange with minerals and the production of sodium clays.
If you dump sand into your tap water you can leave it as long as you like and squash it as much as you like. Guaranteed, once the water is removed, the result will be no more rock-like than when you started.
The water in my loft tank has left a thick layer of chalky accretion, easily enough seize up the valve, and enough to cement sand grains.

And, unfortunately for your explanation, deposition of sediments doesn't happen below the water table. If you want to make a sedimentary rock it needs to be made above the existing rock in cement-rich water.
They are deposited in the sea, but then buried. The FORMATION of the rock occurs below the water table if the sea has retreated or below the sea bed if not. In both case, with the presence of water which remains throughout the process.

Rock formation processes are well studied. Do you want to retract any of your claims? How did you get your strange ideas about rock formation?
 

Stripe

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Some sediments become impervious after formation due to the presence of salty water which causes a base-exchange with minerals and the production of sodium clays.
Ah, well. Then you should know there are far more than just clays that are impervious.

The water in my loft tank has left a thick layer of chalky accretion, easily enough seize up the valve, and enough to cement sand grains.
That's nice.

They are deposited in the sea, but then buried. The FORMATION of the rock occurs below the water table if the sea has retreated or below the sea bed if not. In both case, with the presence of water which remains throughout the process.
Until the water is removed, the sediment will remain soft and malleable. After the water is removed the layer can become brittle and rock like.

Rock formation processes are well studied.
No, they aren't. There are just lots of ideas that are entrenched.
 

gcthomas

New member
No, they aren't. There are just lots of ideas that are entrenched.

If you believe that God created the world, then the study of the physical world is closer to God than the Book written by men, and science is just the study of God's work.

If the world does not conform to your expectations from your particular reading of the Book, then perhaps you need both to re-read the Book with reality in mind, and learn how to read the meaning of the world with the skill that many others already have.

Being unbending can, to use an engineering analogy, make your ideas strong but also brittle and unsuitable for building an edifice of thought.
Declaring black is white may make you feel that you are standing up to something and righteous, but it is ultimately futile and makes you look a little silly.

[ I am aware of Robert Heinlein's famous comment, “Never try to teach a pig to sing: it's a waste of time and besides it annoys the pig”, but singing about the true wonders of the World is just so great! ]
 

Stripe

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If you believe that God created the world, then the study of the physical world is closer to God than the Book written by men, and science is just the study of God's work. If the world does not conform to your expectations from your particular reading of the Book, then perhaps you need both to re-read the Book with reality in mind, and learn how to read the meaning of the world with the skill that many others already have.Being unbending can, to use an engineering analogy, make your ideas strong but also brittle and unsuitable for building an edifice of thought.Declaring black is white may make you feel that you are standing up to something and righteous, but it is ultimately futile and makes you look a little silly.[ I am aware of Robert Heinlein's famous comment, “Never try to teach a pig to sing: it's a waste of time and besides it annoys the pig”, but singing about the true wonders of the World is just so great! ]
I see. So you've given up trying to defend your ideas.
 

gcthomas

New member
You've been trying to teach a pig to sing? What a moron! :mock: GC.

Yeah, foolish I know. But someone told the pig that if it could sing then the other pigs would reject and revile it. So it refuses to consider the idea of improving itself and rejects the idea of singing as incompatible with being a pig. So the pigs, sadly, will never learn to sing, by their own choice. :sigh: Their loss.
 
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