Real Science Friday: Old Birds and Fish Fins

[Jefferson]

RSF: Old Birds and Fish Fins

This is the show from Friday, February 10th 2012.

SUMMARY:

* Fish Fin Designed by God: A dorsal fin, called an adipose fin, on some fish was thought by evolutionists to be a left over (vestigial) structure from its evolutionary past. Believing this to be so, biologists in fish hatcheries would cut these fins off thinking it would help the salmon survive better in the wild. It is now been shown that fish with that particular fin still attached are better swimmers. At one time, evolutionists believed that there were over 100 so-called vestigial organs, glands, or structures in the human body. Practically all have now been shown to have important functions. Evolutionists have been proven wrong every time.

* Global Warming Making It Colder: Seventy-nine degrees below zero in Alaska! Just thinking it makes a person cold. The all time record cold in Alaska is eighty below zero at Fr. Yukon in 1971---just one degree colder than it got just a few weeks ago at Jim River, Alaska. Dr. Roy Spencer says global warming is not manmade and NASA satellites show that more heat than previously thought is being released to space. Over 31,000 American scientists agree with Dr. Spence and have signed the Global Warming Petition Project stating stating as much.

* Humming Bird Beaks: The beak of a humming bird is very flexible and can snap shut in amazingly fast (one-hundredth of a second) allowing for the bird to catch fruit flies.

* Dinosaur Death Pose: Fossils of dinosaurs all over the world are found with their heads turned backwards. Experiments show that birds buried in a watery graves also have their heads turned backwards in the same manner. This is more evidence of a global flood. Bob would like to see if any friends of BEL would be interested in replicating experiments like the ones discussed during the program.

* Old(er) Bird: Once again the evolutionary time line is set on its head. This time by a find in China in which a bird fossil is said to be much older than the supposed first bird, Archaeopteryx.

* Concrete that Bends: Scientists have developed concrete that bends and heals itself. They used knowedge gleaned by observing God's amazing designs in the natural world (know as bio-mimicry).

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[Jukia]

Just more, this is stuff I don't understand so godidit. More silly stories from Pastor Bob.

 

[Frayed Knot]

If an evolutionist says that all vestigial organs have no function, he's wrong. So what? Does that happen often? Most simply say that vestigial organs are vestigial.

 

[The Barbarian]

* Fish Fin Designed by God: A dorsal fin, called an adipose fin, on some fish was thought by evolutionists to be a left over (vestigial) structure from its evolutionary past. Believing this to be so, biologists in fish hatcheries would cut these fins off thinking it would help the salmon survive better in the wild. It is now been shown that fish with that particular fin still attached are better swimmers. At one time, evolutionists believed that there were over 100 so-called vestigial organs, glands, or structures in the human body. Practically all have now been shown to have important functions. Evolutionists have been proven wrong every time.

It's a common misconception that "vestigial" means "no function." And there are some vestigial organs like that. But it actually means that it doesn't serve the function for which it first evolved.

And it's always been like that. Darwin discussed the adaption of vestigial organs to new uses, in The Origin of Species.

 

[The Barbarian]

Dinosaur Death Pose: Fossils of dinosaurs all over the world are found with their heads turned backwards. Experiments show that birds buried in a watery graves also have their heads turned backwards in the same manner. This is more evidence of a global flood. Bob would like to see if any friends of BEL would be interested in replicating experiments like the ones discussed during the program.

The pose is caused by tightening of the nuchal ligament after death. Water doesn't seem to matter, as dinosaurs buried in desert conditions have them, and mammals with large nuchal ligaments, like horses and cows show that death pose after dying in dry conditions. Humans don't because we don't have a large nuchal ligament (don't need one because we have a short neck and a head balanced on the spine).

Ancient birds and dinosaurs had them though, and that explains the posture.

 

[The Barbarian]

Old(er) Bird: Once again the evolutionary time line is set on its head. This time by a find in China in which a bird fossil is said to be much older than the supposed first bird, Archaeopteryx.

And the "if you're alive, your uncle has to be dead" argument appears again...

 

[Frayed Knot]

Was archaeopteryx even touted as the "first bird"? It's a creature with clearly transitional features, some parts of birds, while retaining features that are specific to dinosaurs.

 

[Alate_One]

Was archaeopteryx even touted as the "first bird"? It's a creature with clearly transitional features, some parts of birds, while retaining features that are specific to dinosaurs.

I'm pretty sure it's YECers asserting it must be a bird. Though scientific papers have placed it in the line to birds at least or perhaps the first bird. Recent papers have been putting forward arguments for both positions. In fact I believe the line is "just a bird". Guess Bob didn't get the memo from AiG, oops.

 

[Cricket]

If an evolutionist says that all vestigial organs have no function, he's wrong. So what? Does that happen often? Most simply say that vestigial organs are vestigial.

I thought the point was that the fin was mistaken for having no function.

tt

 

[The Barbarian]

I thought the point was that the fin was mistaken for having no function.

The point, I suppose, is that the error had to do with the meaning of "vestigial."

 

[Cricket]

The point, I suppose, is that the error had to do with the meaning of "vestigial."

I don't think so. I didn't hear anything that suggested the fins were evolving for a new function or from an old one.

tt

 

[The Barbarian]

I don't think so. I didn't hear anything that suggested the fins were evolving for a new function or from an old one.

At one time, evolutionists believed that there were over 100 so-called vestigial organs, glands, or structures in the human body. Practically all have now been shown to have important functions. Evolutionists have been proven wrong every time.

It's also wrong about no present functions. Darwin's example of perfectly-formed wings under the fused elytra of beetles remains a great example of vestigial organs with no use.

 

[Alate_One]

I thought the point was that the fin was mistaken for having no function.

tt

Scientists can be mistaken about things. And the big news on that is what exactly?

I had a difficult time searching out the original research on this (this was as close as I got) but the effect of removing the adipose fin is pretty modest (about an 8% increase in energy consumption). Though in the competitive environment of wild rivers it might make the difference between survival and non-survival.

However, the fin may not be serving the usual function of fins, that is to control water, but instead more of a "flow sensor" that allows it to use the larger fin surfaces more effectively.

Not all fish have an adipose fin (most families do not) which is why it is a reasonable assumption to say it is likely to be vestigial.

 

[The Barbarian]

I had a difficult time searching out the original research on this (this was as close as I got) but the effect of removing the adipose fin is pretty modest (about an 8% increase in energy consumption). Though in the competitive environment of wild rivers it might make the difference between survival and non-survival.

However, the fin may not be serving the usual function of fins, that is to control water, but instead more of a "flow sensor" that allows it to use the larger fin surfaces more effectively.

Not all fish have an adipose fin (most families do not) which is why it is a reasonable assumption to say it is likely to be vestigial.

It is almost certainly vestigial, since it no longer serves its original function, but apparently has evolved into a sensory organ.

 

[Cricket]

Scientists can be mistaken about things. And the big news on that is what exactly?

Failed predictions are an indicator of a weak theory.

tt

 

[The Barbarian]

Failed predictions are an indicator of a weak theory.

By that standard, Newton's theory of gravity is a failure. But we still use it to accurately send spacecraft on voyages over millions of kilometers.

All theories have flaws. Evolutionary theory has lasted this long only because it had fewer flaws than most.

 

[jeffblue101]

It is almost certainly vestigial, since it no longer serves its original function, but apparently has evolved into a sensory organ.

Barbarian, the vestigial lie again. If vestigial merely means reduced function, why isn't every part of our body vestigial. Secondly, how is this not circular reasoning?

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
It is almost certainly vestigial, since it no longer serves its original function, but apparently has evolved into a sensory organ.

Barbarian, the vestigial lie again.

No lie. That's what it's meant since Darwin put it in his theory.

If vestigial merely means reduced function

It means "no longer has the original function."

why isn't every part of our body vestigial.

Because some of our parts still have the original function since evolving.

Secondly, how is this not circular reasoning?

Because it doesn't assume what it indicates to be true.

 

[Alate_One]

Failed predictions are an indicator of a weak theory.

tt

That's a very minor prediction and it's one that had a good likelihood of being correct. I'm not sure the evidence is such that it's truly *wrong*. Evolution makes plenty of predictions that are very accurate. The location of the tiktaalik fossil, the fusion of Human Chromosome #2, the finding of fossil whales with legs etc.

We still don't know what the actual function of the adipose fin is, only that it does help salmon in particular swim better. But it may have a different function from a normal fin. It apparently isn't needed by most fish since they don't have those fins. Perhaps it is more necessary in the turbulent waters of rivers. Only more experiments can give us the answer to that.

 

[jeffblue101]

It means "no longer has the original function."

wiki:
Vestigiality describes homologous characters of organisms that have seemingly lost all or most of their original function in a species through evolution
talkorgins:
A vestigial character is reduced and rudimentary compared to the same complex structure in other organisms

so Barbarian will you go on record and admit that talkorgins is wrong on vestigial organs.
the coccyx is considered vestigial even though apes do not have tails. so its considered vetigial to the supposed ape ancestors. so using that criteria, one can conclude that all organs are vestigal when compared to the proto cell or any supposed ancestor that we supposedly evloved from. thus rendering the word vestigial completely meaningless within evolutionary biology.

Because it doesn't assume what it indicates to be true

.
you can not use vestigial organs as proof since it assumes the very thing you are trying to prove, which is evolution.