Real Science Friday: Baraminologist Dr. Roger Sanders on RSF

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TeeJay

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=Jukia;2705089]This conversation took place in 1953? Got a citation to that?

Jukia,

I did years and years ago. I was alive at the time and I recall reading about it. I will see what I can do to relocate it. If I can't find it, I will have to retract it. But Crick was not a Christian when he cracked the DNA code, and as far as I know, his revelation that DNA was information did not disuade him from his atheism--even though he was smart enough to know that information can only come from an intelligent mind.

Tom
 

The Barbarian

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I wondered that mself. When a T-Rex bone is cut in two and red tissue is found

A few molecules and some structures that have yet to be shown to be tissues. BTW, soft organic material has been known to survive for millions of years in other cases. It's not unique.

shouldn't scientists be asked to reconsider their argument that dinosaurs died out 65 millions years ago.

For what reason? You've just done the creationist circle dance. "These fossils can't be old, because they have soft organic material. And soft organic material can't be that old, because these fossils aren't that old."

After all, dinosaurs are mentioned in Job.

Nope. Dinosaurs did not have external genitalia.

When Crick and Watson cracked the DNA code, a reporter asked: Now that we know that DNA is information, and information can't come from chemicals, can we assume there must be a God (paraphrased). Crick, instead of agreeing with Genesis, answered that outer space visitors did it.

I too, would like a checkable source for that conversation.

This is why I argue that evidence does not matter.

Of course it doesn't matter to you. You're a creationist. You guys flee from evidence. You've been conditioned to expect something bad to happen if you encounter reality.

It will be interpreted through one's worldview.

Sorry, postmodernism isn't going to work for you.

- If I am now asked to yield on the on the interpretation of Genesis 1 or the flood story, they won’t science soon be asking me to give up the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Won’t the gospel of God’s grace in Christ and my own salvation ultimately have to be abandoned in the face of science?

This is the real creationist fear. "If I'm wrong about the little things, how can I be sure I'm right about the big thing?" Ultimately, it's a lack of faith that does it to you.
 

TeeJay

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This conversation took place in 1953? Got a citation to that?

Jukia,

Designed by aliens?
Discoverers of DNA’s structure attack Christianity

by Gary Bates

Francis Crick and James Watson have used the occasion of the 50th anniversary of their discovery of the DNA double helix as an excuse to attack belief in a Creator.1

A recent UK news article about the Nobel-Prize–winning pair claimed ‘scientific discoveries have a habit of offending religious susceptibilities’, and pointed out, ‘Watson and Crick are both outspoken atheists.’1

These comments attempt to reinforce the old canard that science somehow disproves Christianity. However, as creationists have long pointed out, it is not the scientific facts that are the problem; it’s the interpretation of those facts. This was made abundantly clear by Crick’s beliefs. Long before he ever discovered DNA’s structure, he held strong atheistic views. The news article1 even reported that Crick’s distaste for ‘religion’ was one of the prime motives that led to his discovery, and also said, ‘The antipathy to religion of the DNA pioneers is long standing. In 1961 Crick resigned as a fellow of Churchill College, Cambridge, when it proposed to build a chapel.’

DNA: really evidence for design

But what was it that Watson and Crick discovered that supposedly disproved the idea of an intelligent Creator God? The DNA molecule has often been described as the most efficient information storage system in the entire universe. The immensity of complex, coded and precisely sequenced information written on the DNA is absolutely staggering. The evidence speaks of intelligent, information-bearing design. Complex DNA coding would have been necessary for even the hypothetical first ‘so-called’ simple cell(s). Indeed, Creation magazine also used the 50th anniversary of the double helix’s discovery to publish a detailed article on the wonders of DNA.2

Even Crick himself was quoted as saying, ‘An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going.’3

Crick reasoned that life could not have evolved from non-living chemicals under any conceivable earth conditions. But the idea of a creator was unacceptable, since it would go against his atheistic faith. He affirmed this when he said, ‘People like myself get along perfectly well with no religious views.’1

Crick’s atheistic faith leads to absurd pseudoscience

Unfortunately, Crick was not being entirely forthright in this regard. He does hold a religious view. Atheism is a religion in the sense of answering the ‘big questions’, such as ‘Where did we come from?’ and ‘What is our destiny?’, and is foundationally a belief system, since the non-existence of God could hardly be said to have been proven! So he must explain the origin of DNA from his religious perspective, and, subsequently, the origin of life on earth.

He does this with a theory called panspermia. This comes from the Greek words pas/pan (all) and sperma (seed), meaning that the seeds of life are all through the universe.




Watson and Crick’s blooper: finding out how a car works proves it had no maker?

What was a major argument by Watson and Crick that supposedly disproves the idea of an intelligent Creator God? They discovered a mechanism to copy the genetic information that functions according to the laws of chemistry, and they claim that this disproves the need for a creator. However, this merely knocks down the straw man of the faulty belief called vitalism, which says that living organisms have a ‘vital force’ beyond ordinary physics and chemistry.

But this is not the biblical view. Rather, the Bible states that God finished creating after Day 6, and now works by sustaining His creation (Colossians 1:15–17, Hebrews 1:3). The Bible implies that a God of order would sustain His creation in a regular, repeatable way, and this led to the founding of modern science itself.1 Scientific laws are merely our descriptions of this sustaining activity. Atheism cannot provide any logical basis for the order in the universe that makes science even possible.

Watson and Crick’s antitheistic argument is particularly inept, as we can easily see by considering a car. We have no dispute that it works by the laws of physics and chemistry without any miniature intelligent beings controlling the various parts. But this would not show that the laws of physics and chemistry created the car in the first place! Rather, we know that an intelligent designer organized the components in the right way, so they would run by these laws.2

Notes
1.See Wieland, C. and Sarfati, J., The Christian origin of modern science, Creation 25(1):48, 2003. Return to text.
2.See also Wieland, C., A tale of two fleas, Creation 20(3):45, 1998. Return to text.


Crick has refined this idea to directed panspermia. To overcome the huge hurdles of evolution of life from non-living chemicals on earth, Crick proposed, in a book called Life Itself, that some form of primordial life was shipped to the earth billions of years ago in spaceships—by supposedly ‘more evolved’ (therefore advanced) alien beings.4

Although he tried to solve the problem of the source of intelligence for the creation of DNA without God, Crick only succeeded in pushing the problem into outer space where, of course, it cannot be tested. After all, if such alleged aliens, in turn, were not created by a greater intelligence than themselves, then how did they evolve from non-living chemicals in the first place? Moreover, how could these benevolent extraterrestrials presume to know what the outcome of evolution would be, with its undirected processes of time and chance? Another insurmountable problem for Crick is that evolution is supposed to have been occurring for the last 3.5 billion years. How could any intelligent race plan for, and expect to be around to see the results, some billions of years later?

Crick later acknowledged the mounting problems and futility of his ideas when he was reported as saying, ‘Every time I write a paper on the origin of life, I swear I will never write another one, because there is too much speculation running after too few facts … .’ 3

After all of these speculations, have Crick or Watson reconciled the evidence of intelligent design with the Creator God of the Bible? Absolutely not! Watson still maintains that religious explanations are ‘myths from the past.’1

Life’s enormous complexity in miniature is a serious objection to atheistic evolutionary theory. Evolutionists cannot account for the origin of the first cell(s), and there are further problems with the increasing complexity and new information that is required to produce higher, or more ‘evolved’, life-forms.

Even the non-Christian molecular biologist, Michael Denton, says, in his best-selling book Evolution a Theory in Crisis, ‘Nothing illustrates clearly just how intractable a problem the origin of life has become than the fact that world authorities can seriously toy with the idea of panspermia.’3

Everywhere we look, life possesses the hallmark of the design and purposes of its creator. Unfortunately for some, they are so blinded by their worldview that they are incapable, or unwilling, to consider the most obvious and sensible explanation.

Update: see Panspermia theory burned to a crisp: bacteria couldn’t survive on meteorite.

References
1.Do our genes reveal the hand of God? <www.telegraph.co.uk/connected/main.jhtml?xml=/connected/2003/03/19/ecfgod19.xml>, 15 July 2003. Return to text.
2.Sarfati, J., DNA: Marvellous messages or mostly mess? Creation 25(2):26–31, 2003. Return to text.
3.Panspermia, <www.creationdefense.org/68.htm>, 9 March 2003 (emphasis ours). Return to text.
4.Panspermia, <www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/20hist11.htm#Rocket%20Sperm>, 30 May 2003. Return to text.








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Tom
 

TeeJay

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Barbarian,

I rest my case. Your worldview forces you to believe the impossible--that the red tissue in the bone can last for 65 million years without drying up. I'm sorry. I don't have much faith. If you can reveal how this is possible to refrig companies, you will make a fortune--and win a Nobel Prize.

Please Read Job 41 in its entirety and tell me what animal God is talking about?

"[God speaking to Job] Look now at the behemoth, WHICH I MADE ALONG WITH YOU; he eats grass like an ox. See how his strength is in his hips. And his power is in his stomach muscles. He moves his tail like a cedar. The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit. His bones are like beams of bronze. His ribs like bars of iron. He is the first of the ways of God. Only He who made him can bring near His sword. Surely the mountains yield food for him. And all the beasts of the field play there. He lies under the lotus trees. In a covert of reeds and marsh. The lotus trees cover him with their shade. The willows by the brook surround him. Indeed the river may rage, yet he is not disturbed. he is confident though the Jordan gushes into his mouth though he takes it in his eyes or one pierces his nose with a snare" (Job 40;15-).

Tom
 

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I rest my case. Your worldview forces you to believe the impossible--that the red tissue in the bone can last for 65 million years without drying up.

As you learned, it's not been shown to be tissue. But we have examples of leaves buried for millions of years, that are still green when first exposed to the air. I would be open to your evidence that organic materials cannot exist for millions of years. But merely stamping your foot and insisting that they can't isn't going to help you.

I'm sorry. I don't have much faith.

If you you had some more faith in God, you wouldn't have to make up stories to support it.

If you can reveal how this is possible to refrig companies, you will make a fortune--and win a Nobel Prize.

Please Read Job 41 in its entirety and tell me what animal God is talking about?

Elephant. The key is the reference in the Hebrew...

Job 40:11 [11] His strength is in his loins, and his force in the navel of his belly. [12] He setteth up his tail like a cedar, the sinews of his testicles are wrapped together.

Dinosaurs didn't have external genitalia.

BTW, Job 41 is about the Leviathan, not the Behemoth but it fits a crocodile or shark better than a dinosaur.
 

The Barbarian

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Is this why you don't believe Genesis?

As you know, I accept all of it. Because it contradicts your new doctrine of "life ex nihilo", you accept only parts of it, and those reworked to make it acceptable to a young Earth.
 

Stripe

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I accept all of it. ... you accept only parts of it, and those reworked to make it acceptable to a young Earth.

What is this part all about?

Genesis 1:6-8
Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
 

GuySmiley

Well-known member
No no no. The laws of logic were granted by magical leprechauns. Since you don't believe in magical leprechauns, then you can't even justify the validity of the laws of logic that you claim to use!

This line of argument is just silly, Bob.
You have to give up your real beliefs in order to make an argument. You've lost from the start. Why not try to answer with things you actually believe? You have to borrow from a theistic worldview to even discuss the subject, even if you call your diety "magic leprechauns."
 

Jukia

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Jukia,

I did years and years ago. I was alive at the time and I recall reading about it. I will see what I can do to relocate it. If I can't find it, I will have to retract it. But Crick was not a Christian when he cracked the DNA code, and as far as I know, his revelation that DNA was information did not disuade him from his atheism--even though he was smart enough to know that information can only come from an intelligent mind.

Tom

I was alive at the time as well. I suspect that you, as most creationists, have limited knowledge of biology, limited knowledge of the theory of evolution as first proposed by Chuck, limited knowledge of the science since then and no understanding of what "information" means.

You do not undertand it ergo goddidit
 

The Barbarian

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What is this part all about?

Genesis 1:6-8
Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

As St. Augustine pointed out, literal mornings and evenings without a Sun to have them are logically absurd. He acknowledged that the "days" are categories of creation, not literal 24-hour days. That is a modern reworking of Genesis.
 

Stripe

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As St. Augustine pointed out, literal mornings and evenings without a Sun to have them are logically absurd.
Oh. So you think what the bible says is absurd. :plain:
He acknowledged that the "days" are categories of creation, not literal 24-hour days.
Who is reworking the text? :chuckle:

And you hardly even scratched the surface of the passage. What is all of this part all about?

Genesis 1:6-8
Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
 

The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
As St. Augustine pointed out, literal mornings and evenings without a Sun to have them are logically absurd.

Oh. So you think what the bible says is absurd.

No, Augustine was noting that it was absurd to change it to a literal history.

Barbarian observes:
He acknowledged that the "days" are categories of creation, not literal 24-hour days.

Who is reworking the text?

You are. Because a literal history cannot be reconciled logically, we have to accept that it, like much of the Bible, is allegory.

And you hardly even scratched the surface of the passage. What is all of this part all about?

More allegorical description of creation. I know you want it to be different, but if you'd let God be God, you'd no longer be troubled by it.
 

Stripe

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No, Augustine was noting that it was absurd to change it to a literal history.
So we changed it from saying "Six days" and "Evening and morning" to saying .. what, exactly?

You are. Because a literal history cannot be reconciled logically, we have to accept that it, like much of the Bible, is allegory.
Then you'll be able to tell us what your "allegory" refers to. Allegories have meaning and are based on known ideas so that they can be understood. What does this passage mean if it is allegory?

Genesis 1:6-8
Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

I notice you continually give generalisations that delve by no means into details. This is what we want to know - what does the passage mean. What is a firmament? Where was the water? Where did evening and morning come from? What do these things mean if it is all an allegory? Why did God put all this in the bible?
 

The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
No, Augustine was noting that it was absurd to change it to a literal history.

So we changed it from saying "Six days" and "Evening and morning" to saying .. what, exactly?

Perhaps you might want to read De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim. It's a lot of theology. If you object to reading Christian theology, I can spend a little time summarizing it for you.

Barbarian observes:
You are. Because a literal history cannot be reconciled logically, we have to accept that it, like much of the Bible, is allegory.

Then you'll be able to tell us what your "allegory" refers to.

Creation.

Allegories have meaning and are based on known ideas so that they can be understood. What does this passage mean if it is allegory?

Genesis 1:6-8
Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

St. Augustine thought that God did this momentarily. He had no need to spend time on it, and as you know, the lack of a sun early on made it clear that there could not be actual mornings and evenings.

I notice you continually give generalisations that delve by no means into details. This is what we want to know - what does the passage mean. What is a firmament? Where was the water? Where did evening and morning come from? What do these things mean if it is all an allegory? Why did God put all this in the bible?

Remember, Augustine was an orthodox Christian, and remarked that while we can be in error about Scripture, we should take it as literal, unless doing so produces error. So...

It was these skies where our air is that once perished in a flood, as we read in an epistle included in the canon of Sacred Scripture. Now the moist element that had so condensed into water as to rise fifteen cubits above the tops of the highest mountains could not have reached the stars; but, because it had filled all or nearly all the regions of moist air in which birds fly, the epistle speaks of the perishing of the heavens that had been, This is unintelligible, in my view, unless the heavier air around the earth was changed into water. Otherwise the heavens did not perish but were raised up higher when water occupied their space. We can more readily believe, therefore, on the authority of this epistle, that those heavens perished and that others (as the sacred writer states) were put in their place' by an increase and extension of the watery element, than that the former heavens had been raised up in such a way that the higher heavens yielded place to them.
De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim
 

Stripe

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Perhaps you might want to read De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim. It's a lot of theology. If you object to reading Christian theology, I can spend a little time summarizing it for you.
Please do! :)

Because a literal history cannot be reconciled logically
Sure, it can. :)

Creation.
Creation is an allegory for creation? :squint:

St. Augustine thought that God did this momentarily.
Who? :idunno:

as you know, the lack of a sun early on made it clear that there could not be actual mornings and evenings.
That doesn't make it clear at all. To have evenings and mornings all you need is a light source and a rotating Earth.

Remember, Augustine was an orthodox Christian, and remarked that while we can be in error about Scripture, we should take it as literal, unless doing so produces error. So...

It was these skies where our air is that once perished in a flood, as we read in an epistle included in the canon of Sacred Scripture. Now the moist element that had so condensed into water as to rise fifteen cubits above the tops of the highest mountains could not have reached the stars; but, because it had filled all or nearly all the regions of moist air in which birds fly, the epistle speaks of the perishing of the heavens that had been, This is unintelligible, in my view, unless the heavier air around the earth was changed into water. Otherwise the heavens did not perish but were raised up higher when water occupied their space. We can more readily believe, therefore, on the authority of this epistle, that those heavens perished and that others (as the sacred writer states) were put in their place' by an increase and extension of the watery element, than that the former heavens had been raised up in such a way that the higher heavens yielded place to them.
De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim

Sounds like the dude needs to "learn some science". :chuckle:
 

The Barbarian

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Please do!

I'll get started on it. It's Christian theology, so you're going to be seeing a lot of stuff for the first time. I'll try to make it as simple as i can.

Creation is an allegory for creation?

Genesis contains an allegory for creation.

Barbarian observes:
St. Augustine thought that God did this momentarily.


God. He's your creator.

Barbarian observes:
as you know, the lack of a sun early on made it clear that there could not be actual mornings and evenings.

That doesn't make it clear at all. To have evenings and mornings all you need is a light source and a rotating Earth.

No. Big light in the sky doesn't make it morning. Sun appearing makes it morning. Likewise, sky getting dark doesn't make it evening. Sun setting makes it evening. If your theology requires that you redefine words, isn't that a tip-off that there's something wrong with it?

Barbarian observes:
Remember, Augustine was an orthodox Christian, and remarked that while we can be in error about Scripture, we should take it as literal, unless doing so produces error. So...

(Augustine accepts the idea of literal water above the firmament)

Sounds like the dude needs to "learn some science".

He acknowledged that he could be wrong about scripture, and that if we learned more about the world, we should be open to changing our opinion on such things.

That understanding would have saved you from a lot of false doctrine, Stipe.
 
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