Public shaming of drug addicts - Do you think its a deterant to drug use?

[Hilltrot]

So you're OK with a false conviction for a life-imprisonment?

Not ok with that or a false prosecution.

At least, one can apologize, pay compensation, etc. When they are dead, there is nothing you can do.

That being said. My personal opinion is that all drugs should be legal and only regulated for factual truth in advertising.

 

[Gary K]

Having not had to deal with addicts my whole life until recently, I can see now that the "hard ball" approach I had supported is counter-productive.

Most addicts, depending on your definition of what an addict is, heal themselves. They all know it's bad, but most young people that start taking drugs regularly find lives that are more fulfilling and just don't find a need for chemical escape. They even find it counterproductive which adds to their desire to change their habit.

Knowing that, shaming is only good in a general sense or specific situations. But if you have a personal relationship with them, it's better to let them know you love them enough to be around through their struggle to work for a better life and just not need drugs anymore. That doesn't mean you have to tolerate them when they are under the influence, but if you can communicate to them you'll be there when they are clear headed it's a more effective path to happiness for both you and them. It also doesn't mean any crimes are ignored when they are under the influence, but that crimes will be punished *because* they were under the influence.

I agree with a lot of what you said. Real friendship doesn't mean you don't hold someone accountable for what they do under the influence. Addicts have real problems with personal accountability but helping them understand that accountability while still maintaining that friendship is a necessary part of a drug free life and is something that is positive for them.

I do disagree that addicts can naturally change and go on with their lives. The issues that lead to drug addiction must be dealt with, and God is by far the best equipped to deal with that. He knows their entire life history and reads their very thoughts so He knows exactly what they need, and is more than willing to help them. That's what He did for me. He taught me step by step what I needed and why. All I had to do was become His friend like He was already mine. And that type of friendship is a deep and abiding friendship with the type of love that changes us from the inside out. Like Paul says, the love of God constraineth us. God reads the heart and we humans read the outside of the person so we are very likely to screw things up.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Because such pictures have been so helpful in deterring people in the past...

https://thumbs.mugshots.com/gallery/images/0f/03/RHONDA-PASEK-mugshot-40946258.jpeg.400x800.jpg

If people don't see how destructive their lifestyle is by looking at pictures like this, then there's righteous laws that help those that don't want to help themselves by incarcerating them and getting them the help that they so desperately need.

 

[Eric h]

I voted no.

When you buy a packet of cigarettes in the UK, there are graphic pictures and warnings on the packet saying how harmful they are. Yet millions still smoke.

I Believe in many cases hard drugs are used as a form of self harm, users don't feel worthy to be treated as a valued human being. Hard drugs can be used as a form of medication, to try and take away past or present emotional pain. Drugs can start of as being fun and a way of rebelling against society, then the fun stops; and the pain begins.

When addicts can feel loved and valued, then I believe there is hope.

The issues that lead to drug addiction must be dealt with, and God is by far the best equipped to deal with that.

I agree with you, but this is more in God's hands than our own. I have seen how God changes people's lives a number of times.

I recently heard a man’s story who had been on the 12 step programme; he had come through a lifetime of addiction with drink, drugs and violence. His life was in such a mess; that one night he ended up sitting on a high bridge, with his legs over the edge. He said, God you have thirty seconds to reveal yourself, then I am jumping.

Seconds later his phone rang; the lady on the other end said, I have just woken up it’s 2 in the morning; and I had this strong feeling that I should phone you, but I don’t know why. We haven’t spoken for years. The man said, I know why you have phoned. The man gave up his addictions and turned his life round from that moment, and he is now on fire for our Lord.

 

[Eric h]

If people don't see how destructive their lifestyle is by looking at pictures like this, then there's righteous laws that help those that don't want to help themselves by incarcerating them and getting them the help that they so desperately need.

So sorry, but I have to disagree; locking them up is almost the worst that can happen, and drugs are available in prison.

Rats are isolated and locked in a cage with a choice of two water bottles, one bottle is laced with heroin, and the other is just water. The rats chose the heroin and die. Then they did the 'Rat Park' experiment, and got a very different result. This four minute video explains.

 

[Hilltrot]

https://thumbs.mugshots.com/gallery/images/0f/03/RHONDA-PASEK-mugshot-40946258.jpeg.400x800.jpg

If people don't see how destructive their lifestyle is by looking at pictures like this, then there's righteous laws that help those that don't want to help themselves by incarcerating them and getting them the help that they so desperately need.

Boy, you really like your death porn, don't you?

Here's some more. . .
Picture 1.jpg
Picture 2.jpg
Picture 3.png

I guess you're right. If people don't realize how destructive their righteous laws are, they won't stop passing them. Did I convince you yet?

As far as desperately needed help, what's the recidivism rate again? 76.9% for states. 41.9% for federal. Over 5 years. I don't see jail as a primary reason why people quit drugs.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

So sorry, but I have to disagree; locking them up is almost the worst that can happen, and drugs are available in prison.

Prison ministries and drug treatment programs inside prisons/county jails have helped many a junkie overcome their addiction. Besides, allowing them to continue their culture of death will only bring about the inevitable that much sooner: Overdosing, being murdered by another junkie, shot while burglarizing a home, etc. etc.

Rats are isolated and locked in a cage with a choice of two water bottles, one bottle is laced with heroin, and the other is just water. The rats chose the heroin and die. Then they did the 'Rat Park' experiment, and got a very different result. This four minute video explains.

I prefer to look at these lost souls as human beings that need help, not rats, it's that love your neighbor as you'd love yourself thing.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

I guess you're right. If people don't realize how destructive their righteous laws are, they won't stop passing them. Did I convince you yet?

I learned long ago that libertarians have this hatred of themselves and therefore want to harm others so that they can share their misery. Legalizing and promoting recreational drug use is one way that libertarians share their misery with others.
Have you looked into therapy to help discover what brought this hatred on?

 

[Gary K]

Having not had to deal with addicts my whole life until recently, I can see now that the "hard ball" approach I had supported is counter-productive.

Most addicts, depending on your definition of what an addict is, heal themselves. They all know it's bad, but most young people that start taking drugs regularly find lives that are more fulfilling and just don't find a need for chemical escape. They even find it counterproductive which adds to their desire to change their habit.

Knowing that, shaming is only good in a general sense or specific situations. But if you have a personal relationship with them, it's better to let them know you love them enough to be around through their struggle to work for a better life and just not need drugs anymore. That doesn't mean you have to tolerate them when they are under the influence, but if you can communicate to them you'll be there when they are clear headed it's a more effective path to happiness for both you and them. It also doesn't mean any crimes are ignored when they are under the influence, but that crimes will be punished *because* they were under the influence.

I've been thinking about this some more. I think what you are calling addicts are people who like to party but are not addicted. Why? Because someone who is truly addicted doesn't just blend into society after a few years. All addicts I've ever met, including myself, have personal demons that someone doesn't get over on their own. My old man was an alcoholic. He stopped drinking but never dealt with his demons and he was one mean sob. He never did deal with his demons. He died without dealing with them. And he lived, as a result, the life a very miserable man. He was a talented musician but sold his instruments and never played again after his early thirties.

I spent a few years in NA, and found a lot of healing there. I had felt completely alone my entire life because of how my immediate family treated me and the massive amount of bullying I had experienced. I was in my mid thirties the first time I attended an NA meeting. There were about 50 people at that meeting of which around 30 spoke and from the moment the first person spoke I was hearing my own life experience coming out of the mouths of other people. I stopped feeling completely isolated from humanity at that meeting. It was one of the most moving experiences I've ever had.

There were addicts there that attended meeting 7 days a week as that association was the only way they could deal with the intense loneliness, anxiety, and cravings to get high. I was fortunate that I already knew God to a certain extent. The better I got to know him, and the more people I found that I could relate to and actually become friends with that God used those experiences to heal me. He had already performed miracles in ,my life but without feeling connected to any humans I could not stay clean. I was in and out of using for several years because I had never known that I was just simply a human being. My family had beaten it into me for decades that I was so useless and deformed that I was completely worthless. As far as they were concerned I had zero worth. They loved beating that into my head. And a very high percentage of addicts have had very similar, or worse, childhoods. For a human being to feel that they are of worth they must find acceptance and home when they are young, or find that sense of worth in their relationship with God as they mature.

To this day only one person in my family has ever acknowledge I have any personal worth. That person was my mother and she only acknowledged that after I spent an entire evening explaining temperaments to her, and showed her what her temperament was. I still had explain to her exactly how I viewed life. After that, and I was in my forties and she was within a couple of months of dying, she looked at me as if I was an almost complete stranger and said, Oh, now I understand you. We talked on the phone once a week after that until she died, but she could never bring herself to say she was sorry for how she and the entire family had always treated me. But, she had at least acknowledge that I had at least some value as a human being. Neither of my brothers have ever acknowledged that.

I'm not telling you this so you'll feel sorry for me. God had a purpose for allowing me to go through what I did. I have learned so much about human nature, the power of sin, the power of evil, the love of God, and the ability of God to heal us and to save us from the power of sin, that I am now grateful for what I went through and what all I've learned. Not a single other person in my family ever learned any of those things. So I have been incredibly blessed by God as I have had the incredible joy of leading several addicts to trust God. God is their only real hope.

 

[Hilltrot]

I learned long ago that libertarians have this hatred of themselves and therefore want to harm others so that they can share their misery. Legalizing and promoting recreational drug use is one way that libertarians share their misery with others.
Have you looked into therapy to help discover what brought this hatred on?

When my grandmother was denied oxygen because she didn't have a prescription and died in 2008.

Cocaine is an easily made drug from the Coca Plant. Do you know that cocaine has very important medical uses. It is an excellent, cheap and effective local anesthetic. It was used for that purpose for decades. Although extended use can cause a psychological addiction - the alternative - morphine is highly addictive and deadly. Guess which gets used? The plant has to be destroyed wherever it appears except to kill people by making them obese and making money for Coca-Cola.

The most deadly drug in the U.S. right now is Alcohol.

I want legalization because it will reduce misery. Thousands will not die in drug wars in Mexico. Mexico will be able to free itself of the control of drug lords when their money supply dries up. The Taliban and terrorist will see their money dry up. Endless lives will be saved. Civil rights will return. The no-knock warrants came into being because of the drug war.

Everything about your drug-war is wrong and evil.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

When my grandmother was denied oxygen because she didn't have a prescription and died in 2008.

Cocaine is an easily made drug from the Coca Plant. Do you know that cocaine has very important medical uses.

You've moved the subject from recreational drug use to medical uses.

I want legalization because it will reduce misery.

Many liberal/libertarian cities have decriminalized recreational drug use; junkies shoot up in the open on city streets not worrying that police will arrest them (why would they, the criminal justice system is overloaded with other cases). The misery that comes with recreational drug use,( to the junkies themselves, to the families of the junkies, to the communities that junkies run rampant in, and to a nation as a whole) hasn't lessened with decriminalization, why would it lessen with all out legalization?

 

[Hilltrot]

You've moved the subject from recreational drug use to medical uses.

They are one and the same. Who gets to determine when its recreational and when it is not?

Many liberal/libertarian cities have decriminalized recreational drug use; junkies shoot up in the open on city streets not worrying that police will arrest them (why would they, the criminal justice system is overloaded with other cases).

Alcohol is legal. Public intoxication is not.

The misery that comes with recreational drug use,( to the junkies themselves, to the families of the junkies, to the communities that junkies run rampant in, and to a nation as a whole) hasn't lessened with decriminalization, why would it lessen with all out legalization?

First, not enforcing the law does not mean that it has not been decriminalized. It is still illegal and not decriminalized in all 50 states. A few states have simply said that they will not be enforcing the law anymore.

Second, the lives are really saved when the illicit trade is ended.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

They are one and the same. Who gets to determine when its recreational and when it is not?

A trained medical professional, i.e. a doctor, they write these things called "prescriptions" (sigh, libertarians).

Alcohol is legal. Public intoxication is not.

I'm not sure what you point is: Are you claiming that the millions of people that have a glass or wine or a beer with dinner are the same as intravenous heroin shooting junkies?

First, not enforcing the law does not mean that it has not been decriminalized. It is still illegal and not decriminalized in all 50 states. A few states have simply said that they will not be enforcing the law anymore.

In any event, recreational drug use is out in the open in many places. 70,000 people died from overdoses in 2019 in the US, many more than your beloved Mexican drug lords that you claim die by the thousands. Your culture of death will only get worse if recreational drugs are legalized, but then misery loves company doesn't it?

 

[Hilltrot]

A trained medical professional, i.e. a doctor, they write these things called "prescriptions" (sigh, libertarians).

You murdered my grandmother.

I'm not sure what you point is: Are you claiming that the millions of people that have a glass or wine or a beer with dinner are the same as intravenous heroin shooting junkies?

You're talking about people using drugs on streets. Alcohol is legal. In most places you aren't allowed to walk down a street, sit on the street or anywhere drink alcohol in public.

In any event, recreational drug use is out in the open in many places. 70,000 people died from overdoses in 2019 in the US, many more than your beloved Mexican drug lords that you claim die by the thousands. Your culture of death will only get worse if recreational drugs are legalized, but then misery loves company doesn't it?

71,000 - 15,000 prescription drug drug overdoses = 56,000 < 90,000 alcohol related deaths. I would say that even more of those drug overdoses are due to prescription drugs where the prescription was denied and the person turned to street drugs.

The drug lords are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the deaths due to the drug trade. Most who die are not addicts nor drug lords.

Things will actually get better with legalization. When the supply is clean of contaminants and its strength is known, people using drugs will be less likely to OD.

This is not just about recreational drugs.

There is no perfect system. I would like people to die based on what they did to themselves - not based on what other's did to them or prevented them from doing.

 

[Hilltrot]

libertarians

One other thing. I'm not a libertarian, I have never voted libertarian. I do not agree with libertarians.

I am a pragmatist.

 

[Eric h]

So I have been incredibly blessed by God as I have had the incredible joy of leading several addicts to trust God. God is their only real hope.

Thanks for sharing, you have been on an amazing journey.
God Bless.

 

[Yorzhik]

I think what you are calling addicts are people who like to party but are not addicted.

Yes, we are talking about 2 different groups. Although calling the group I focus on as those that "like to party" misses the mark a bit. I'm talking about people who use but not so much that they can't keep a veneer of normalcy in their lives in wider society (while people closer always know the truth and have to deal with the destruction). They might call getting together with their druggie friends as a party, but only in the loosest sense. If they don't stop, the corrosion that eats away at their lives will eventually cause them and the people around them enough misery that a crisis will emerge. A wasted life at best, death of innocent people around them at worst.

This is the vast majority of users. That's what I'm focusing on.

God is their only real hope.

This is true for both groups. And the solution, decriminalization, is true for both groups, too.

 

[Gary K]

Yes, we are talking about 2 different groups. Although calling the group I focus on as those that "like to party" misses the mark a bit. I'm talking about people who use but not so much that they can't keep a veneer of normalcy in their lives in wider society (while people closer always know the truth and have to deal with the destruction). They might call getting together with their druggie friends as a party, but only in the loosest sense. If they don't stop, the corrosion that eats away at their lives will eventually cause them and the people around them enough misery that a crisis will emerge. A wasted life at best, death of innocent people around them at worst.

This is the vast majority of users. That's what I'm focusing on.


This is true for both groups. And the solution, decriminalization, is true for both groups, too.

I guess it was your description of a group you're talking about that just stop their using naturally and become useful members of society that created the misunderstanding. Because what you're describing now is an addict. They have the self-destructive urge and have their personal demons too. And until they have the courage to deal with them their addiction will never cease.

People talk about how destructive drugs are that cause physical addiction. And how drugs like pot aren't really that destructive. That's completely false for the emotional issues that are part and parcel of addiction are the hardest to deal with. When I first met God He removed my desire to get high for a couple of years. But if I walked down the street and passed someone who had just been smoking pot the smell alone gave me all the physical symptoms of being high. That's how powerful the mental part of addiction can be. That part doesn't go away after a period of a couple of weeks like getting over the physical addiction does. It takes building very close relationships with other people that understand what the addict is going through. God plays a huge part in that, but building trusting relationships with other human beings is also necessary. And that is something very difficult for an addict to do. They don't trust very easily at all. They've been taught by life, one way or the other, that people are not to be trusted. That's what my family taught me. That's what completely isolated me from other people. Not until NA taught me that I wasn't alone and that what had warped me had done the same thing to many other people could I begin to trust others.

These are the reasons shaming an addict is so counter productive. If you truly want to help an addict becoming a trusted friend of theirs is the way to do it, but it's also a very frustrating process for someone who hasn't been an addict themselves to do and to understand. That you've learned that speaks well of you, Yorzhik.

 

[Gary K]

This is true for both groups. And the solution, decriminalization, is true for both groups, too.

@Yorzhik

I completely disagree with this. Making drug use socially acceptable and drugs easier to find and use are not positive moves for addicts and potential addicts. It's been demonstrated in every state in which pot has been legalized that there are serious side effects for doing that. One of them is that kids can get access to drugs much more easily. And drug usage among young kids is extremely damaging. Just using pot as an example, from the time a person starts using the maturation process stops. On top of that their mental abilities are reduced for pot decreases their ability to concentrate, even when they are not high. So that means their reasoning power is reduced. Why anyone would be for increasing the odds of that happening to anyone is to me incomprehensible. There is no way that I could support such endeavors and still claim I love my fellow man for what has loving my fellow man have do with increasing the odds of their self destruction. That is the opposite of being a friend.

Befriending an addict has nothing to do with making drug usage acceptable. It has everything to do with loving your fellow man enough to lend a helping hand to those who are at that time incapable of helping themselves. Increasing the odds of creating more addicts is not loving our fellow man. It is exactly the opposite of doing so.

 

[Yorzhik]

I completely disagree with this. Making drug use socially acceptable and drugs easier to find and use are not positive moves for addicts and potential addicts. It's been demonstrated in every state in which pot has been legalized that there are serious side effects for doing that. One of them is that kids can get access to drugs much more easily. And drug usage among young kids is extremely damaging. Just using pot as an example, from the time a person starts using the maturation process stops. On top of that their mental abilities are reduced for pot decreases their ability to concentrate, even when they are not high. So that means their reasoning power is reduced. Why anyone would be for increasing the odds of that happening to anyone is to me incomprehensible. There is no way that I could support such endeavors and still claim I love my fellow man for what has loving my fellow man have do with increasing the odds of their self destruction. That is the opposite of being a friend.

Befriending an addict has nothing to do with making drug usage acceptable. It has everything to do with loving your fellow man enough to lend a helping hand to those who are at that time incapable of helping themselves. Increasing the odds of creating more addicts is not loving our fellow man. It is exactly the opposite of doing so.

I think the result of decriminalization will ultimately end up the same as alcohol. And the medical problems with pot will also be well known if it is legal and I think that will result in lower usage than other drugs.

But I have no way to prove that will be the result. Although I think I have some good evidence that I'm right, it's not as solid as some libertarians might think (I'm not a libertarian). So if people feel otherwise, I understand.