Public school education vs. homeschool education

[ebenz47037]

What is your experience with kids or education?

I was a teacher's aide for about four years before I had my daughter. She's now, 17 (18 in January) and I've been homeschooling her from second to fourth grade (one semester in public school then), fourth to sixth grade (one semester of privates school while I taught Spanish for a semester), and from sixth grade on.

I know that you were talking to Lighthouse. But, he's repeating everything that I've said about children teaching themselves.

Do you have kids, or have you taught them? What age kids are you talking about?

See above.

Have you see a kids "teach themselves" to read?

Sure have. My daughter taught herself to read when she was two years old. And, I'm not talking about Dick and Jane books. She learned how to read the newspapers and encyclopedias. It was cute seeing her sounding out words, letter-by-letter. But, it took her less than a week to read the local paper.

 

[Highline]

I was talking to Lighthouse, but I've appreciated your perspective on this topic in the past. Maybe your daughter is gifted or driven, my daughter could not or did not teach herself to read. Kindergarten has been great for her. Every year my wife and I will evaluate the kids growth and our options, but this past year our oldest had a great year in kindergarten.

 

[ebenz47037]

I was talking to Lighthouse, but I've appreciated your perspective on this topic in the past. Maybe your daughter is gifted or driven, my daughter could not or did not teach herself to read. Kindergarten has been great for her. Every year my wife and I will evaluate the kids growth and our options, but this past year our oldest had a great year in kindergarten.

Highline, how did you feel about school and learning when you were a child? Same question about your wife, if you don't mind.

Personally, I hated school, but loved learning. I did more learning, myself outside of school than in it. That's where I think my daughter got her love of learning/hatred of school. I didn't have to say anything to her about how I felt. She ended up either picking it up or inheriting it from me.

 

[Highline]

I can't really remember how I felt about learning when I was elementary school age. I liked school; though I can remember the joyfulness of the last day of the school year. I liked High School as well, though I'm not to proud to admit that I was less interested in learning and more interested in sports, acting class, and girls. I wasn't interesting in learning outside of class at that age either, though.

 

[The Barbarian]

Hey! Some of those janitorial jobs pay pretty good.

Then by all means homeschool, without thought for the consequences.

If bad homeschooling leads to one of those, what does bad public education lead to?

Homeschooling. My guess is where public education in the US is bad, people homeschool out of desperation.

Oh! Never mind! Leads to more public school teachers

Probably not. You don't get all those Nobel winners out of public schools, without some very capable teachers. Varies a lot by state, of course. One of the things you'll see in the relatively few countries that do better than the US, is a comprehensive set of national education standards.

 

[The Barbarian]

My point is that the public school system is broken beyond repair.

Odd then that American public schools are better than those of most other nations in math and science (TIMSS data). We should be better than that, of course, but being above average certainly isn't "broken beyond repair."

They keep asking for more and more money.

Yeah, rising fuel costs, inflation, etc. will do that. If you'll notice most businesses are charging more for their products lately. What makes you think they don't charge schools more money?

In fact, the US spends about as much, as a percentage of GDP, as most other nations do on education. We're pretty average in that area.
http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/economics-business/variable-643.html

But, every year we see or hear about the same problems. It's obvious that money isn't going to fix the problems they do have.

Turnover is bad, and that's caused by money. Retention of good teachers is always a problem. But that's not going to change very soon. Too much money goes into athletics, not enough into lab equipment and salaries.

And the biggest problem has always been the level of committment by parents. In fact, the parents of all successful students homeschool. They just don't call it that. When your kid comes home, you should check his homework to see what it is, and later to see that it's done, helping out, if there's a problem.

If not, then the kids with parents who do, get the advantage. And that is how they get to be successful.

 

[ebenz47037]

Odd then that American public schools are better than those of most other nations in math and science (TIMSS data). We should be better than that, of course, but being above average certainly isn't "broken beyond repair."

:chuckle: Funny you should mention TIMSS. I'm looking at the summary for 2003, right now. Yes. The US scored higher than 13 countries that participated for the fourth grade (Cyprus, Moldavia, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Slovenia, Amenia, Norway, Iran, The Philippines, Morocco, and Tunisia). But, from the summary page of TIMSS:

No measurable changes were detected in the average mathematics and science scores of U.S. fourth-graders between 1995 and 2003 (tables 4 and 10). Moreover, the available data suggest that the performance of U.S. fourth-graders in both mathematics and science was lower in 2003 than in 1995 relative to the 14 other countries that also participated in both studies (tables 6 and 12).

And:

On the other hand, fourth-grade students in six countries showed improvement in both average mathematics and science scores between 1995 and 2003: Cyprus, England, Hong Kong SAR, Latvia-LSS, New Zealand and Slovenia. At the same time, fourth-graders in Norway showed measurable declines in average mathematics and science achievement over the same time period (tables 4 and 10).

Yeah, rising fuel costs, inflation, etc. will do that. If you'll notice most businesses are charging more for their products lately. What makes you think they don't charge schools more money?

The problem with that is that, not only do the public schools ask for more tax money, but they solicit donations from private corporations. I found a letter from the Foundation for the Roundtable for the Public School Foundations in Westchester/Putnam, in Pennsylvania, doing just that:

Roundtable for the Public School Foundations in Westchester/Putnam

Roundtable of Educational Foundations

January 17, 2007

Dear Roundtable Members,

Happy New Year! The Foundation for the Public Schools of the Tarrytowns is pleased to announce our winter Roundtable for the Public School Foundations in Westchester & Putnam counties. This year’s roundtable will focus on Alumni and Internet fundraising. It will be held on Thursday, March 15, 2007 from 8:30 a.m.-10:30 am in the Washington Irving Conference Room, at Hitachi America Ltd., 50 Prospect Avenue in Tarrytown. We are also planning a second Roundtable in the spring.

Topics:
• Alumni Fundraising
• Internet Fundraising (On-line Donations, On-line Auctions, etc.)
• Open Forum Discussion on recent foundation activities that you’d like to share

If you have any recent brochures, letters, by-laws, annual reports, etc. that could be of help to other Foundations, please bring copies to the meeting.

The $50 annual membership fee for 2007 is payable now. Please send a check to the Foundation office (we also take Visa or MasterCard). Please make checks payable to: Foundation for the Public Schools of the Tarrytowns.

For security reasons at Hitachi America, Ltd. it is imperative that you RSVP
With names of those attending. (E-mail address and phone number deleted by ebenz47037.)

Sincerely,

Shelly Colley
Foundation Administrator

Here's a web page set up for tax deductible donations to the Irvine Publics Schools Foundation in California. Here's another page to donate to the New York public schools. Here's a page to donate "free things" to Chicago Public Schools.

From Baltimore City Public School System School Partnerships:

Financial Contributions

Monetary contributions to a school or school program are always needed. Many principals have programs that they would like to apply in their schools but lack funding to do so. You can determine if your business would want to support a specific need or program. Many corporations have foundations associated with them. Please check with your company to see if corporate funding is available for your school.

Donations

Most people think of donations to schools as school supplies however donations can range from pencils to computers; books to playground equipment; flowers to furniture. Even though schools are in need of many items there are standards for gifts. For information check BCPSS Gift & Donation Standards.
www.bcps.k12.md.us

With the donations public schools are soliciting (and you know that corporations make huge donations just for the tax deductions), there should be no need for them to ask for higher tax funding.

In fact, the US spends about as much, as a percentage of GDP, as most other nations do on education. We're pretty average in that area.
http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/economics-business/variable-643.html

Let's take the countries that participated in TIMSS:

• Singapore (highest math average in 2003) spends 3.7% of its GDP on education.
  Hong Kong spends 4.7% of its GDP.
  Japan spends 3.6% of its GDP.
  The Netherlands spends 5.1% of its GDP.
  Latvia spends 5.8% of its GDP.
  England spends 5.3% of its GDP.
  Hungary spends 5.5% of its GDP.
  The US spends 5.7% of its GDP.
  Cyprus spends 6.1% of its GDP.
  Australia spends 4.9% of it's GDP.
  New Zealand spends 6.7% of its GDP.
  Slovenia spends 6.0% of its GDP.
  Norway spends 7.6% of its GDP.
  Iran spends 4.8% of its GDP.

I looked for Scotland and I'm guessing that it's included in The UK with England, North Ireland, and Wales. Now, I'm going to compare math improvements from 1995 to 2003 for each of those countries:

• Singapore improved 4 points for fourth graders.
  Hong Kong improved 18 points.
  Japan's score decreased 3 points.
  The Netherlands' score decreased 9 points.
  Latvia improved 34 points.
  England improved 47 points.
  Hungary improved 7 points.
  The US stayed the same.
  Cyprus improved 35 points.
  Australia improved 4 points.
  New Zealand improved 26 points.
  Scotland's score decreased 3 points.
  Slovenia improved 17 points.
  Norway's score decreased 25 points.
  Iran improved 2 points.

Oh my! The country that spends the most on education is Norway. Their math scores for fourth graders decreased 25 points from 1995 to 2003. It seems from the two lists above that the countries that spent less than 5% of their GDP did slightly better (if you include that they improved since 1995) than the US did, who spends 5.7% of its GDP. To me, that proves my point that throwing more money at the problem is not necessarily going to solve the problems.

Turnover is bad, and that's caused by money. Retention of good teachers is always a problem. But that's not going to change very soon. Too much money goes into athletics, not enough into lab equipment and salaries.

According to The American Federation of Teachers, teachers in the US made an average of $47,602 a year in the 2004-2005 school year. From The John Locke Foundation, here are the average adjusted salaries for teachers in each of the US states and Washington DC for 2005 (highest to lowest):

1. Georgia - $61,149 26. Minnesota - $46,588
2. Illinois - $61,089 27. New Mexico - $46,432
3. Michigan - $55,436 28. Kansas - $45,983
4. Ohio - $54,868 29. Virginia - $45,943
5. Kentucky - $53,978 30. Pennsylvania - $45,910
6. Utah - $53,782 31. Nebraska - $44,719
7. Texas - $53,765 32. Connecticut - $44,584
8. Alaska - $53,404 33. Maryland - $44,518
9. Delaware - $53,118 34. Florida - $43,862
10. Oregon - $52,616 35. Wisconsin - $43,602
11. North Carolina - $52,006 36. Mississippi - $43,339
12. California - $50,953 37. New York - $42,399
13. Indiana - $50,561 38. Washington - $42,147
14. Arkansas - $50,556 39. District of Columbia - $40,546
15. Missouri - $50,579 40. Montana - $38,435
***State Average - $50,418*** 41. Vermont - $38,226
16. Arizona -$50,131 42. Wyoming - $38,125
17. Tennessee - $49,630 43. West Virginia - $37,948
18. Alabama - $49,477 44. South Dakota - $37,893
19. Colorado -$49,355 45. Massachusetts - $37,486
20. South Carolina - $49,260 46. Iowa - $37,329
21. Nevada - $48,854 47. North Dakota - $37,102
22. Idaho - $48,578 48. New Jersey - $36,724
23. Rhode Island - $48,564 49. Hawaii - $34,929
24. Oklahoma - $47,672 50. Maine - N/A
25. Louisiana - $46,785 51. New Hampshire - N/A

:think: It seems that the average salaries for teachers in each state is higher than most people's average incomes in that state, according to the 2000 Census. The highest average I saw on the census was in New Jersey ($60,246) for 2004-2005. The lowest was Mississippi ($34,396). Seems like the highest average for teachers is higher than the highest average on the 2000 census and the lowest average is higher for teachers is higher than the lowest average on the census. I know that California pays an average of about $50,000 a year. My late husband was a correctional officer for the state of California, a much more dangerous job than teaching, and only made about $47,500 a year, after working overtime. Although I consider teaching children an important job, there's no way that a man or woman who puts their life on the line everyday should get paid less than them. Our men and women in the military get paid way less than teachers do. I find that to be repugnant.

And the biggest problem has always been the level of committment by parents. In fact, the parents of all successful students homeschool. They just don't call it that. When your kid comes home, you should check his homework to see what it is, and later to see that it's done, helping out, if there's a problem.

If not, then the kids with parents who do, get the advantage. And that is how they get to be successful.

:hah: Tell that to my local school. When I tried to get more involved (when my daughter attended 4th grade for one semester), the teacher told me that all they wanted as far as parental involvement went was making sure the kids did their homework, got enough to eat at home, and got enough sleep each night. They didn't want parental volunteers for the classes. I already did all of that. I wanted to help the school out because, at that time, I respected teachers for the job they did.

 

[Ktoyou]

There are many types of teachers, but some are daughters and sons of wealthy families who have the luxury to teach rather than work in the private sector and often lack talent to become engineers, physicians, scientists and lawyers.

Some teachers are truly dedicated, but sometimes it is an affordable dedication; if they had to worry about earning a living, they might have had to choose a more demanding profession.

Some teachers are the real deal, concerned for the benefit of children, I bet many in this group and not too thrilled with the nonsense! Real teachers desire to teach, not indoctrinate.

 

[ebenz47037]

Hey! Some of those janitorial jobs pay pretty good.

Then by all means homeschool, without thought for the consequences.

I've been homeschooling my daughter for most of her years through school now. And, the reason was because I feared the consequences of allowing her to stay in a public school system that didn't know how to deal with intelligent children. Right now (the end of my daughter's junior year in high school), my daughter's talking about either going to college to study hippotherapy (physical therapy using horses) or airplane mechanics.

If bad homeschooling leads to one of those, what does bad public education lead to?

Homeschooling. My guess is where public education in the US is bad, people homeschool out of desperation.

I wasn't necessarily desperate when I began homeschooling. I did so at the recommendation of a public school teacher though.

Oh! Never mind! Leads to more public school teachers

Probably not. You don't get all those Nobel winners out of public schools, without some very capable teachers. Varies a lot by state, of course. One of the things you'll see in the relatively few countries that do better than the US, is a comprehensive set of national education standards.

Well, I googled "homeschooled Nobel Prize winners." There are/were two homeschooled Nobel Prize winners. I'm still looking to see if I can give you their names. I don't think we'll get many Nobel Prize winners out of the current students. I may be wrong. But, I think that most of the winners for at least the next three or four decades will be from somewhere other than the US.

 

[ebenz47037]

There are many types of teachers, but some are daughters and sons of wealthy families who have the luxury to teach rather than work in the private sector and often lack talent to become engineers, physicians, scientists and lawyers.

Some teachers are truly dedicated, but sometimes it is an affordable dedication; if they had to worry about earning a living, they might have had to choose a more demanding profession.

Some teachers are the real deal, concerned for the benefit of children, I bet many in this group and not too thrilled with the nonsense! Real teachers desire to teach, not indoctrinate.

I agree with you. There are some teachers who are worth their weight in gold. But, they're being forced to either toe the political line or leave the career they've come to love. I've talked to too many ex-teachers who have chosen to leave the schools rather than compromise their own values.

 

[The Berean]

There are many types of teachers, but some are daughters and sons of wealthy families who have the luxury to teach rather than work in the private sector and often lack talent to become engineers, physicians, scientists and lawyers.

Some teachers are truly dedicated, but sometimes it is an affordable dedication; if they had to worry about earning a living, they might have had to choose a more demanding profession.

Some teachers are the real deal, concerned for the benefit of children, I bet many in this group and not too thrilled with the nonsense! Real teachers desire to teach, not indoctrinate.

I don't agree that people are teachers because they aren't talented enough to do something else. We are talking high school education here folks. Let's take a math teacher for instance. They have to have a bachelors degree in mathematics which means they took some seriouly high level math courses in college. At best a top notch academic high school will teach second quarter calculus. Anyone with a degree in math should easily understand second quarter calculus.

Also, some teachers really want to help young people. Ever hear of Jaime Escalante? The movie Stand and Deliver was about him. He turned a barrio high school in East Los Angeles into a mathematics powerhouse. He took a bunch of poor latino kids and pushed, and inspired and got them to apply themselve and to fulfill their potential. Oh and by the way Escalante left a computer company to teach high school math.

 

[ebenz47037]

I can't really remember how I felt about learning when I was elementary school age. I liked school; though I can remember the joyfulness of the last day of the school year. I liked High School as well, though I'm not to proud to admit that I was less interested in learning and more interested in sports, acting class, and girls. I wasn't interesting in learning outside of class at that age either, though.

I think that children whose parents either were more than just a little interested in learning when they were children tend to like learning better than children whose parents showed little interest in learning when they were children. I may be wrong about this. But, I look at myself, my brother, my older sister, and my youngest sister. My dad had a great love of learning. He learns all he can today, even though he's in his 70s. :chuckle: The four of us love learning. Now, my brother and those two sisters had regular contact with my dad while growing up. But, I didn't. My mom hated school and learning when she was growing up. My other two sisters (raised solely by my mom) also hated school and learning when they were growing up. Their children hate school and don't like it when someone makes them learn. On the other hand, my daughter, my brother's children, and my older sister's children (Youngest sister doesn't have kids yet) all love learning. I don't know if it's hereditary or something that usually comes from the environment you're raised in (although I was raised by my mom, who hated school and learning).

 

[ebenz47037]

I don't agree that people are teachers because they aren't talented enough to do something else. We are talking high school education here folks. Let's take a math teacher for instance. They have to have a bachelors degree in mathematics which means they took some seriouly high level math courses in college. At best a top notch academic high school will teach second quarter calculus. Anyone with a degree in math should easily understand second quarter calculus.

Also, some teachers really want to help young people. Ever hear of Jaime Escalante? The movie Stand and Deliver was about him. He turned a barrio high school in East Los Angeles into a mathematics powerhouse. He took a bunch of poor latino kids and pushed, and inspired and got them to apply themselve and to fulfill their potential. Oh and by the way Escalante left a computer company to teach high school math.

Until the public schools treated me and my daughter the way they did, I wanted to be a public school teacher. Now, if I continue my education after :jessilu: graduates, I will more than likely work toward working in a private school.

 

[The Berean]

Until the public schools treated me and my daughter the way they did, I wanted to be a public school teacher. Now, if I continue my education after :jessilu: graduates, I will more than likely work toward working in a private school.

That's sounds like a good plan. Has:jessilu:decided about what she wants to study in college yet? :think: I think we briefly spoke about a possibility in engineering a few months ago.

 

[ebenz47037]

That's sounds like a good plan. Has:jessilu:decided about what she wants to study in college yet? :think: I think we briefly spoke about a possibility in engineering a few months ago.

She's talking about either studying hippotherapy (physical therapy using horses) or airplane mechanics.

 

[Ktoyou]

My cousins daughter is a teacher and married one, but she stands to inherit about six million dollars.

 

[The Berean]

She's talking about either studying hippotherapy (physical therapy using horses) or airplane mechanics.

Those are two very different careers! Does she know much about aerospace engineering? :think:Would she rather repair aircraft or design and manufacture them? Show her this website.

 

[ebenz47037]

Those are two very different careers! Does she know much about aerospace engineering? :think:Would she rather repair aircraft or design and manufacture them? Show her this website.

I'll show her the website tonight (in about fifteen minutes, when she takes over the computer for an hour). She doesn't know anything about aerospace engineering, despite the conversation you and I had in the past. She said repair. But, she's 17 and could change her mind. :chuckle:

The hippotherapy thing is because she loves horses and likes kids. She wants to limit her work, if she goes into that, to kids only.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Odd then that American public schools are better than those of most other nations in math and science (TIMSS data). We should be better than that, of course, but being above average certainly isn't "broken beyond repair."

Funny you should mention TIMSS. I'm looking at the summary for 2003, right now. Yes. The US scored higher than 13 countries that participated for the fourth grade (Cyprus, Moldavia, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Slovenia, Amenia, Norway, Iran, The Philippines, Morocco, and Tunisia).

Right. A more comprehensive test is given to 8th graders, which includes more nations, and gives you a better idea of the way the older kids stack up. Not too shabby.

I'm not familiar with the 4th grade results, but it apparently isn't hurting the 8th graders much.

However, the fact that we are better than most countries certainly isn't reason to rest on our laurels. We need to aim to be the best.

At the same time, fourth-graders in Norway showed measurable declines in average mathematics and science achievement over the same time period (tables 4 and 10).

Often, there are unforseen reasons for this. Large numbers of immigrants, for example. That brings down some US states, too, even though the quality of instruction actually improved (as measured by the improvement in native-born kids)

Barbarian on why schools (like everything else) cost more today:
Yeah, rising fuel costs, inflation, etc. will do that. If you'll notice most businesses are charging more for their products lately. What makes you think they don't charge schools more money?

The problem with that is that, not only do the public schools ask for more tax money, but they solicit donations from private corporations.

Yep. And corporations are generally happy to help, because it pays off for them. They actually got on the legislature in Texas to raise education funds, even though it meant they would pay higher taxes. They were concerned about the need for more technical education.

Before I was teaching, I was an ergonomist for an insurance company, and I helped organize a program to go into schools and help with tutoring, instruction and so on. It was a good deal for us, and for them.

With the donations public schools are soliciting (and you know that corporations make huge donations just for the tax deductions), there should be no need for them to ask for higher tax funding.

Unfortunately, not. Private donations don't account for much of the public school budget.

In fact, the US spends about as much, as a percentage of GDP, as most other nations do on education. We're pretty average in that area.
http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/econ...iable-643.html

Let's take the countries that participated in TIMSS:

Singapore (highest math average in 2003) spends 3.7% of its GDP on education.
Hong Kong spends 4.7% of its GDP.
Japan spends 3.6% of its GDP.

What do they have in common?

Few immigrants, which holds down costs.

Very low birth rates, especially for wealthy people.

It's serious enought that Singapore is actively trying to get professional people to reproduce. Fewer kids do cost less, although there is a cost in the long run.

Oh my! The country that spends the most on education is Norway. Their math scores for fourth graders decreased 25 points from 1995 to 2003.

Recent influx of immigrants, apparently.

It seems from the two lists above that the countries that spent less than 5% of their GDP did slightly better (if you include that they improved since 1995) than the US did, who spends 5.7% of its GDP. To me, that proves my point that throwing more money at the problem is not necessarily going to solve the problems.

"Throwing money" won't help. But if a company came to you and said "we pay our employees 32% less than the going rate for people of equal education in other companies, and we seem to be having trouble keeping people. We'll do anything we can to improve, except pay more money." What would you suggest?

Barbarian observes:
Turnover is bad, and that's caused by money. Retention of good teachers is always a problem. But that's not going to change very soon. Too much money goes into athletics, not enough into lab equipment and salaries.

According to The American Federation of Teachers, teachers in the US made an average of $47,602 a year in the 2004-2005 school year. From The John Locke Foundation, here are the average adjusted salaries for teachers in each of the US states and Washington DC for 2005 (highest to lowest):

State Average - $50,418***

It seems that the average salaries for teachers in each state is higher than most people's average incomes in that state, according to the 2000 Census.

I would hope so. You should compare those people with others holding degrees.

My late husband was a correctional officer for the state of California, a much more dangerous job than teaching, and only made about $47,500 a year, after working overtime.

Did he have a degree? Law Enforcement people holding degrees (most cities require at least a two-year degree) make more than teachers, on the average.

Although I consider teaching children an important job, there's no way that a man or woman who puts their life on the line everyday should get paid less than them.

I wouldn't do that work for anything. But the requirements for prison guards are lower.

Our men and women in the military get paid way less than teachers do. I find that to be repugnant.

Hmm... with pay and benefits, an officer makes more than teachers. Remember, you have to compare them with others who have degrees.

Barbarian observes:
And the biggest problem has always been the level of committment by parents. In fact, the parents of all successful students homeschool. They just don't call it that. When your kid comes home, you should check his homework to see what it is, and later to see that it's done, helping out, if there's a problem.

If not, then the kids with parents who do, get the advantage. And that is how they get to be successful.

:hah: Tell that to my local school. When I tried to get more involved (when my daughter attended 4th grade for one semester), the teacher told me that all they wanted as far as parental involvement went was making sure the kids did their homework, got enough to eat at home, and got enough sleep each night.

Your district sounds just horrible. This is more evidence for my argument that homeschooling is often the last resort for parents who live in backward areas. My district takes all the volunteers it can get.

 

[The Barbarian]

Well, I googled "homeschooled Nobel Prize winners." There are/were two homeschooled Nobel Prize winners. I'm still looking to see if I can give you their names.

There's been a very large number of Nobel Laureates, so there must be at least one or so. Can't think of one right now, though.

I don't think we'll get many Nobel Prize winners out of the current students.

Something will have to profoundly change. The US continues to dominate Nobels.

But, I think that most of the winners for at least the next three or four decades will be from somewhere other than the US.

I think India and Brazil and China might make some inroads into US dominance. But I wouldn't hold my breath; at present, many of their brightest come to the US to get an education.