Theology Club: Predestination, Election and Freewill and the Sovereignty of God

[Pneuma]

Yes but we see that not everyone is given that choice, some "He hath blinded their eyes and stopped their ears lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and turn to Me and I should heal them"


I know that is a hard saying but it is not my saying, it is for me [who DOES believe my Lord is merciful] to cry to Him for understanding.

For clarification on this point you brought up.

We know that scripture cannot contradict scripture. So if there is a contradiction it is usually because of the translation made by men who translate things after their own belief.

God is no respecter of person and we know Jesus came to open the eyes of the blind not blind people. And God wants all people to come to repentance or heal all people.

So is this a proper translation of what was actually said?

John 12:40
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

According to verse 39 what was said here comes from something Isaiah said. This quote can be found in Isaiah 6:9-10. which states in the Septuagint


Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive. 10 For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



God wanted them to convert so that He could heal them but because their hearts had become gross and they closed their eyes to the truth they could not be converted and God could not heal them.

 

[Totton Linnet]

A parable is something set side by side with the truth in order to show forth the truth. And in the parable Jesus said that God sent forth his servants and the people killed some and beat some. Did this really happen? Yes it did. Then God said I will send my son him they will reverence. Did God send forth His son? Yes He did. Did the people reverence His son? No they did not.

All the other things foretold in that Parable really happened so what right does anyone have to say that when God said they will reverence my son is nothing but a figure of speech.


Did God send forth His servant to be beaten and killed for sport? He must have if He foreknew that all those things would happen to them because all along He was planning to send forth His son.
Well a parable is in essence a figure and just like the types and shadows we see in the OT if you treat them exhaustively, pushing the similes too far you distort the meaning. Obviously the owner of the vineyard was behaving with total justification and with all measure and reason and yet the tenants failed to understand that , even as Jesu's hearers failed to understand.







Freewill is NOT sin, the corruption of our freewill by Satan is the cause of sin.

Is the father in the prodigal son story responsible for all the sins the son committed because the father gave the son his inheritance? Why do you refuse to answer this question?
I do not say freewill is a sin, I say it is an illusion, a deception, it does not exist just as a mirage does not exist however real and large it looms in the eyes of the one who sees it.
It IS the deception that the devil perpetrated in the garden by which he lured man into sin.

God said "you will surely die" by your own freewill? no of course not but by God's sovereign will. But the devil said "you will not die"

He deceives the man into believing he is free to disobey.


You are making it up. NO scripture says it is Gods will that people die, you can only come to that conclusion by inference, which is not a good why to understand the scriptures.

However scripture does say it is Gods will that none should perish, do you not believe that scripture?
Then whose will is it that "the soul that sinneth it will surely die?" [this is connected to the 2 wills argument below]

You are still missing the point Totty. Let me try it this way.
Your standing on a cliff and you are warned not to jump off the cliff or you will die, but you decide to jump off the cliff anyway and you end up dead.

Now was it Gods will that you died or did you die because the law of gravity pulled you to your death?
You are missing the deception that devil perpetrated, convincing [the man] that he could jump and not die...this is the essence of my contention that freewill IS that deception. "you will not surely die" is decieving the man that he has freewill to disobey the law which you rightly pointed out was given as a safeguard.





Nonsense, show me anywhere in scripture that states God has two wills?

God's first will was and is that man should live, but if he sin it is His will that he shall die, it was not contingent upon God to save, but He loves the man who He had created and is full of mercy toward him.





God is not a respecter of people. These people refused to come to the light and because of this their eyes were blinded.
Well...God is no respecter of a man's position or supposed position and deals with all men the same. But does He not distinguish between Jew and Egyptian? between Pharoah and Moses? between Peter and Judas?

Between Paul and Peter He makes no distinction.



God planted good seed, the tares are of the devil. And we are not in sin because of some guy named Adam who lived 6000 years ago, we are in sin because we are Adam.
Well there you have it, good seed and bad seed but both were in Adam just as Jacob and Esau were in Rebecca and before either did good or bad God chose Jacob


Freewill break it up it is one word freewill, not two words free will and you will find it.
with regards to offerings you will find freewill, and even then if you back up to Leviticus you will see it was God who made those who participated of a willing heart.

Choice is not freewill, we are given to choose between two options both of which are God's will, you cain't choose to disobey and yet live.




Night totty and God bless you also.

 

[Pneuma]

Well a parable is in essence a figure and just like the types and shadows we see in the OT if you treat them exhaustively, pushing the similes too far you distort the meaning. Obviously the owner of the vineyard was behaving with total justification and with all measure and reason and yet the tenants failed to understand that , even as Jesu's hearers failed to understand.

That is not what a parable is, read this link (below) to get a different understanding to why Jesus spoke in parables.




http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86415

I do not say freewill is a sin, I say it is an illusion, a deception, it does not exist just as a mirage does not exist however real and large it looms in the eyes of the one who sees it.
It IS the deception that the devil perpetrated in the garden by which he lured man into sin.

God said "you will surely die" by your own freewill? no of course not but by God's sovereign will. But the devil said "you will not die"

He deceives the man into believing he is free to disobey.

Again freewill is in the bible so how do you say it is an illusion?


And you did not respond to the rest of my post.

 

[Totton Linnet]

For clarification on this point you brought up.

We know that scripture cannot contradict scripture. So if there is a contradiction it is usually because of the translation made by men who translate things after their own belief.

God is no respecter of person and we know Jesus came to open the eyes of the blind not blind people. And God wants all people to come to repentance or heal all people.

So is this a proper translation of what was actually said?

John 12:40
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

According to verse 39 what was said here comes from something Isaiah said. This quote can be found in Isaiah 6:9-10. which states in the Septuagint


Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive. 10 For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



God wanted them to convert so that He could heal them but because their hearts had become gross and they closed their eyes to the truth they could not be converted and God could not heal them.

I agree there are no contradictions in doctrine in the bible, but there ARE seeming contradictions and paradoxes

For with regard to the Jews seeing or not seeing we read in Acts that Christ was given up by the predeterminate will of God. It was God's will that He be rejected.

On account of this I say the Jews will be saved. Paul shows the mystery that the hardening came upon the Jews for the purpose of bringing in the Gentiles.

 

[Pneuma]

Then whose will is it that "the soul that sinneth it will surely die?" [this is connected to the 2 wills argument below]

It not done by will, it is simply a law, like gravity, and if you jump off a high cliff that law of gravity will kill you.

All Gods laws are ordained unto life.

The command not to eat was a warning kind of like this.

You tell a child not to run out into traffic or they will be killed.

the child decided to run out into traffic anyway, not heeding your warning and gets killed.

Was it your will that the child die because he disobeyed your warning? NO, you warned so that the child would NOT die.

You are missing the deception that devil perpetrated, convincing [the man] that he could jump and not die...this is the essence of my contention that freewill IS that deception. "you will not surely die" is decieving the man that he has freewill to disobey the law which you rightly pointed out was given as a safeguard.

I am not missing the deception of Satan, Satan tried the exact same thing with Jesus. If you are the son of God cast yourself down because God said that He would send angels to keep you safe least you dash you foot against a stone.

Notice that Satan tried to use what God had said about keeping His son safe, the same thing with Adam who was also a son of God. Satan tried to put a twist on what God said, it worked against Adam, but did not work so well against Jesus.

God's first will was and is that man should live, but if he sin it is His will that he shall die, it was not contingent upon God to save, but He loves the man who He had created and is full of mercy toward him.

You keep saying that but no scripture tells us Gods will is for people to die. Thus what you believe is not according to scripture. Scripture says it is Gods will that none should perish, very plain, very simple. But you want to add to that scripture and say but it is Gods will that some perish.

Well...God is no respecter of a man's position or supposed position and deals with all men the same. But does He not distinguish between Jew and Egyptian? between Pharoah and Moses? between Peter and Judas?

Between Paul and Peter He makes no distinction.

The distinction is only in that some obey His voice and other do not.

Well there you have it, good seed and bad seed but both were in Adam just as Jacob and Esau were in Rebecca and before either did good or bad God chose Jacob

But God did NOT sow the tares, which is what your belief lead to. You believe God created man with both wheat and tare, yet a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, we are to either make the tree good and the fruit good or we are to make the tree evil and the fruit evil because the tree is know by its fruit.

Therefore to say God created Adam to produce good and evil fruit is a total contradiction to what Jesus proclaimed.

with regards to offerings you will find freewill, and even then if you back up to Leviticus you will see it was God who made those who participated of a willing heart.

Choice is not freewill, we are given to choose between two options both of which are God's will, you cain't choose to disobey and yet live.

You cannot jump out of a plane without a parachute and expect to live but you are still free to jump if you really want to.


Can man fly all by his lonesome? Why not? Is it not because of the manner in which he is made? Man cannot go beyond the boundaries which God has set for him, but man has the freewill to move within those boundaries. God sets the commandments which are ordained to life as a warning to man that if man goes beyond the boundaries that were set for him man is going to be killed by doing so.

 

[Pneuma]

I agree there are no contradictions in doctrine in the bible, but there ARE seeming contradictions and paradoxes

For with regard to the Jews seeing or not seeing we read in Acts that Christ was given up by the predeterminate will of God. It was God's will that He be rejected.

On account of this I say the Jews will be saved. Paul shows the mystery that the hardening came upon the Jews for the purpose of bringing in the Gentiles.

Well we agree on one thing. The Jews will saved, but so to will the Gentiles.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I will gladly repeat myself. It was God who made the law and it was He who declared it, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" laws don't just fall out the sky.

I dispute, I dispute hotly that it was ever God's will or desire that man should ever sin or that he should die, that I think we are agreed. But it IS his will that the soul that sinneth it shall die"

It is here between these two truths that great disputes arise, for there are some who go so far to say that it was God's will or purpose or design that man would sin, gah! it is an horrid thought and one that should be dismissed from our minds sooner than it comes into our minds...I find it SHOCKING that christians can believe such a thing or that they can allow themselves to be taught such a thing.

But there is a milder version [seemingly much more acceptable] which is just as horrid and ought to be resisted with the same vehemence and that God placed the tree in the midst of the garden in order to test, or to tempt the man, test and tempt are the same word in the original. To see whether man would obey Him or not. There is nothing whatever in the creation story to support such a view.

Evil is just a plain fact, it is there, God uses evil to create. I do not know how, I am not even sure if the scientists have found out...Totty can teach the great scientists, but God creates light out of darkness. There you are scientist, there is revelationary truth for you.

Evil is not sin.

Man's partaking of the knowledge of evil was and is sin, man is not created for evil he was created for good. Far from God tempting Adam with it God solemnly warned him not to do it. But God foreknew that man would sin and foreknowing that He would sin He has created EVERYTHING with a view to man's redemption from sin.

It was not God's will that man would sin but foreknowing that he would sin He planned it so that ALL men would sin together, when Adam fell we ALL fell together, God has consigned ALL under sin [here's what Calvin missed] so that He might have mercy upon ALL.

The ELECTION i not unto salvation although neccesarily the Elect will be saved but the election is to BLESS and to be a BLESSING. "by Abraham the families of the earth will bless themselves" THAT is the election that passed from Abe to Ike and Jake, and through them Israel and Chist the Seed and we the church.

 

[Pneuma]

I will gladly repeat myself. It was God who made the law and it was He who declared it, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" laws don't just fall out the sky.

You keep missing the point. ALL Gods laws are ordained unto LIFE. In other word they are laws that lead to LIFE, NOT death. If you obey them you live, if you disobey them you die.

You tell (command) your child not put your hand on the hot stove or you will be burnt.
Your child puts his hand on the hot stove and gets burnt.
Was it your will for your child to be burnt?

According to your understanding it was your will that your child was burnt.

If you cannot understand this concept TL there is not much more to discuss here as I do not have the words to explain it any better.

I dispute, I dispute hotly that it was ever God's will or desire that man should ever sin or that he should die, that I think we are agreed. But it IS his will that the soul that sinneth it shall die"

That is just double speak. It is not God will that and die, but it is God will that people die. God then according to you cannot make up His own will on things. Scripture expressly tells us it is Gods will that none should perish, but you add to the scriptures and tell us it is Gods will that people perish. And you seem to see nothing wrong with you having to add to the scriptures.

It is here between these two truths that great disputes arise, for there are some who go so far to say that it was God's will or purpose or design that man would sin, gah! it is an horrid thought and one that should be dismissed from our minds sooner than it comes into our minds...I find it SHOCKING that christians can believe such a thing or that they can allow themselves to be taught such a thing.

Yet what you say you find horrid you unknowingly teach. If God predestined Jesus Christ to die for man before the world was created then God foreknew when He created man that man would sin and disobey Him. Thus you are saying God knowingly created man with a nature to sin, which nature caused man to sin. For according to you it was Gods will that Adam sin and die.

And if God foreknew Adam would sin why did God ask Adam where he was and if he had ate from the tree He (God) commanded him not to eat from?

But there is a milder version [seemingly much more acceptable] which is just as horrid and ought to be resisted with the same vehemence and that God placed the tree in the midst of the garden in order to test, or to tempt the man, test and tempt are the same word in the original. To see whether man would obey Him or not. There is nothing whatever in the creation story to support such a view.

Deuteronomy 8:2
2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

Evil is just a plain fact, it is there, God uses evil to create. I do not know how, I am not even sure if the scientists have found out...Totty can teach the great scientists, but God creates light out of darkness. There you are scientist, there is revelationary truth for you.

Evil is not sin.

Man's partaking of the knowledge of evil was and is sin, man is not created for evil he was created for good. Far from God tempting Adam with it God solemnly warned him not to do it. But God foreknew that man would sin and foreknowing that He would sin He has created EVERYTHING with a view to man's redemption from sin.

Yet you believe it was Gods sovereign will that Adam died.

It was not God's will that man would sin but foreknowing that he would sin He planned it so that ALL men would sin together, when Adam fell we ALL fell together, God has consigned ALL under sin [here's what Calvin missed] so that He might have mercy upon ALL.

We each bare our own sins not the sins of some man named Adam 6000 years ago.

The ELECTION i not unto salvation although neccesarily the Elect will be saved but the election is to BLESS and to be a BLESSING. "by Abraham the families of the earth will bless themselves" THAT is the election that passed from Abe to Ike and Jake, and through them Israel and Chist the Seed and we the church.

We finally agree on something.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I affirm to you by the word of God, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" that is God's will. It is not nor ever has been God's will that man should sin or that he should die. There is absolutely no inconsistency here.

Uh oh I think it is the scripture which says God predestined that Christ should die for our sins before the world was founded.

God foreknew man would sin this does not mean He foreplanned that man should sin, what He foreplanned was our salvation. I do not deny that man has to choose, I hotly dispute that choice is freewill. The one who gives the choice and who ordains the consequences of that choice He it is who has free sovereign will. Man if he did have freewill would choose to sin and yet not, but he did not have that freewill he could only choose between the options God gave him.

Devil DECEIVED him into believing he did have freewill and that he could sin and yet not die. This IS the great deception which devil has perpetrated upon mankind.

Deuteronomy 8.2 does not show that God tested or tempted Israel, it shows that God wanted to show them their hearts that they were wicked by nature...that is what the law is all about. God gives His law on this wise that when the people realize that they are incapable of fulfilling all the requirements of the law they might cry to Him for the grace needed to fulfil the law. The law was undergirded with the sin sacrifice.

Adam DID die. God said he would and he did. We believe [I hope that he is among the redeemed.

Paul's teaching is this regarding Adam's sin and our sinning with him.
Romans. 5. 18-19.
Therefore by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[Pneuma]

I affirm to you by the word of God, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" that is God's will. It is not nor ever has been God's will that man should sin or that he should die. There is absolutely no inconsistency here.

Uh oh I think it is the scripture which says God predestined that Christ should die for our sins before the world was founded.

God foreknew man would sin this does not mean He foreplanned that man should sin, what He foreplanned was our salvation. I do not deny that man has to choose, I hotly dispute that choice is freewill. The one who gives the choice and who ordains the consequences of that choice He it is who has free sovereign will. Man if he did have freewill would choose to sin and yet not, but he did not have that freewill he could only choose between the options God gave him.

Devil DECEIVED him into believing he did have freewill and that he could sin and yet not die. This IS the great deception which devil has perpetrated upon mankind.

Deuteronomy 8.2 does not show that God tested or tempted Israel, it shows that God wanted to show them their hearts that they were wicked by nature...that is what the law is all about. God gives His law on this wise that when the people realize that they are incapable of fulfilling all the requirements of the law they might cry to Him for the grace needed to fulfil the law. The law was undergirded with the sin sacrifice.

Adam DID die. God said he would and he did. We believe [I hope that he is among the redeemed.

Paul's teaching is this regarding Adam's sin and our sinning with him.
Romans. 5. 18-19.
Therefore by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

and around and around and around we go.

believe as you will TL, I have given you a different take on these things, but you simply refuse to look at them and because of that your doctrine will alwaya make you double speak.

Gods will is that none should perish

Gods will is that people perish

If that is not double speak I do not know what is.

 

[Totton Linnet]

It's as plain as the nose on your face, men live and men die, nobody other than God has ever had the power of life and death. God's will for man was and is that he should be righteous and live, but if he sin God's will is that he die.

 

[Pneuma]

It's as plain as the nose on your face, men live and men die, nobody other than God has ever had the power of life and death. God's will for man was and is that he should be righteous and live, but if he sin God's will is that he die.

sorry but Jesus took the keys away from the devil, so it is obvious that someone else had them other then God.

 

[Totton Linnet]

He wish.

 

[surrender]

He wish.

Jesus wishes???

Oh, do you mean the devil?

What does Hebrews 2:14 mean when it says that the devil had the power of death?

 

[surrender]

and around and around and around we go.

believe as you will TL, I have given you a different take on these things, but you simply refuse to look at them and because of that your doctrine will alwaya make you double speak.

Gods will is that none should perish

Gods will is that people perish

If that is not double speak I do not know what is.

The Lord does not want anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9). "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live" (Ezekiel 33:11).

 

[surrender]

God said "you will surely die" by your own freewill? no of course not but by God's sovereign will. But the devil said "you will not die"

Why are you adding words to God’s Word?

He deceives the man into believing he is free to disobey.

Adam DID disobey. Did he do that freely or did God force Adam to disobey?

Choice is not freewill, we are given to choose between two options both of which are God's will, you cain't choose to disobey and yet live.

It is NOT God’s will that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9). It was God’s will that sin would result in death. That doesn’t mean that it's God's will that men perish.

 

[Totton Linnet]

It is nowhere found in the bible where God said to any man "behold I have given unto you freewill"

Obedience to God is not optional, it is God's right.

If God had given to man freewill then He would be responsible for the consequences that ensued. The freewill theology [backslidden as it is] puts the blame upon God for sin...that's what the atheists say isn't it? "if God didn't want me to sin He shouldn't have made me this way." The fact is God forbade sin, from the beginning He forbade it warning that sin would incur death.

How can this veto upon sin be interpreted as freewill? if there had been no consequence it would be freewill. THAT is what the devil deceived man into believing "you will not surely die."

The devil is the author of freewill doctrine. It is his deception that lured men into sin...it is STILL the route by which he lures men and women into sin, getting them into the debate zone, "may I? becomes shall I? becomes I shall by steady progress. devil operates that way in the world and he operates that way in the church.

Everyone acknowledges that there is a problem in the church, the western church is by and large backslidden. THIS is the root and cause of it.

 

[Pneuma]

TL do you believe our loving heavenly Father would knowingly put His children in harms way?

Would you take a child and put that child in the middle of a freeway knowing for a fact that the child would be killed by a semi-truck?


This is what your doctrine amounts to.

 

[surrender]

TL do you believe our loving heavenly Father would knowingly put His children in harms way?

Would you take a child and put that child in the middle of a freeway knowing for a fact that the child would be killed by a semi-truck?


This is what your doctrine amounts to.

Yep. :thumb:

 

[Totton Linnet]

Yep. :thumb:

Well I don't know what specific point you are making but it does not seem to tally with scripture, no-one is more beloved of God than Jesus, and He sure was sent into harm's way and we are taught to expect the same. Few seem to grasp this fact...God loves US with the same love wherewith He loved Jesus.

But there is joy [REAL joy] and a peace which passeth all understanding in harm's way. And assurance that we are truly walking with the Master.