ECT Philippians 3: 2-7 and the Physical Bloodline In Dispensationalism

northwye

New member
Philippians 3: 2-7 and the Physical Bloodline In Dispensationalism

"Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5. Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6. Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ." Philippians 3: 2-7

Read it carefully. He says if you want to trust in the flesh, he, Paul, who as a member of the bloodline and Pharisee, was Saul of Tarsus, who was circumcised, was of the stock of Israel, the tribe of Benjain, and was a Hebrew of the Hebrews. But he now counts all of this as dung. Paul says he counts his flesh as a member of the physical bloodline of the stock of Old Covenant Israel as dung.

Dung is Strong's number 4657, skubalon, "what is thrown to the dogs, i.e, refuse, dung."

He says these things - physically being of the chosen people bloodline - "I counted loss for Christ."

That which he had esteemed as a Pharisee, his bloodline, is a loss for Christ, meaning that which he esteemed - the bloodline - works against his being found in Christ (verse 9). But those of the boodline can up their esteeming of that which is of the flesh, and be born again in Christ. Then in verse 13 Paul says he forgets "....those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before." He forgets his once being a Hebrew of the Hebrews, a Pharisee of the bloodline - that which is physical.

When you read in Romans 9: 3, "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:" keep what Paul says in Philippians 3: 2 - in mind. Sometimes the Christian Zionists seem to make Paul conradict himself. But Paul is often subtle in what he says and you have to be careful not to misunderstand him.

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren my kinsmen according to the flesh" in Christian Zionist theology might mean that Paul had so great a love for his brothers in the flesh and value of them, that he could reject Christ and be eternally separated from Christ, so that they might be saved.

"For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14. And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:" Galatians 1: 13-16

Paul is saying here that at one time before he encountered the risen Christ on the road to Damascus, he, having a great zeal for the religion of the Jews, persecuted the ekklesia of God, the congregations of God. But Jesus Christ appeared to Saul and Saul was changed into Paul who was to preach the Gospel of Christ.

But to deny that he underwent that change from having a great zeal or the religion of the Jews to havng a great love of the truth from Christ, and knowing that truth, would not have led Jews to make the same change and be saved. Paul teaches in Romans 12: 2 "... be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Transformed is from μεταμορφουσθε, metamorphoo, number 3339, "to transform... metamorphose. "

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3: 3

Paul's kinsmen of the flesh had to be led by the Holy Spirit to become transformed, to be metamorphosed, that is, to undergo a major change. Had Paul denied to the Jews that he had left their religion, and affirmed that he still believed in the bloodline, in the flesh, he would not have led them to change by the Holy Spirit.

Yet dispensationalism, Christian Zionism, Separation Theology or the Rapture Theory says or strongly implies that the physical bloodline still exists.

"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

In his book, Dispensationalism (1966), Charles Ryrie says "The
essence of Dispensationalism, then, is the distinction between Israel
and the church." (page 3, "Dispensationalism")

J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in his
book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church
and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan.
The church is a mystery, unrevealed in the Old Testament. (page 193,
J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965).

Dispensationalism is a religious system in which Israel is defined from the start as being only Old Covenant Israel, and can be no other for the dispensarionalists. Israel is always Old Covenant Israel for this tradition of men. For dispensatioimalism Israel is made up of those of the physical bloodline. Some dispensationalists will deny this is true, but their theology has to be defined clearly - and by what its founders have said about it.
 

Danoh

New member
Philippians 3: 2-7 and the Physical Bloodline In Dispensationalism

"Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5. Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6. Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ." Philippians 3: 2-7

Read it carefully. He says if you want to trust in the flesh, he, Paul, who as a member of the bloodline and Pharisee, was Saul of Tarsus, who was circumcised, was of the stock of Israel, the tribe of Benjain, and was a Hebrew of the Hebrews. But he now counts all of this as dung. Paul says he counts his flesh as a member of the physical bloodline of the stock of Old Covenant Israel as dung.

Dung is Strong's number 4657, skubalon, "what is thrown to the dogs, i.e, refuse, dung."

He says these things - physically being of the chosen people bloodline - "I counted loss for Christ."

That which he had esteemed as a Pharisee, his bloodline, is a loss for Christ, meaning that which he esteemed - the bloodline - works against his being found in Christ (verse 9). But those of the boodline can up their esteeming of that which is of the flesh, and be born again in Christ. Then in verse 13 Paul says he forgets "....those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before." He forgets his once being a Hebrew of the Hebrews, a Pharisee of the bloodline - that which is physical.

When you read in Romans 9: 3, "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:" keep what Paul says in Philippians 3: 2 - in mind. Sometimes the Christian Zionists seem to make Paul conradict himself. But Paul is often subtle in what he says and you have to be careful not to misunderstand him.

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren my kinsmen according to the flesh" in Christian Zionist theology might mean that Paul had so great a love for his brothers in the flesh and value of them, that he could reject Christ and be eternally separated from Christ, so that they might be saved.

"For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14. And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:" Galatians 1: 13-16

Paul is saying here that at one time before he encountered the risen Christ on the road to Damascus, he, having a great zeal for the religion of the Jews, persecuted the ekklesia of God, the congregations of God. But Jesus Christ appeared to Saul and Saul was changed into Paul who was to preach the Gospel of Christ.

But to deny that he underwent that change from having a great zeal or the religion of the Jews to havng a great love of the truth from Christ, and knowing that truth, would not have led Jews to make the same change and be saved. Paul teaches in Romans 12: 2 "... be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Transformed is from μεταμορφουσθε, metamorphoo, number 3339, "to transform... metamorphose. "

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3: 3

Paul's kinsmen of the flesh had to be led by the Holy Spirit to become transformed, to be metamorphosed, that is, to undergo a major change. Had Paul denied to the Jews that he had left their religion, and affirmed that he still believed in the bloodline, in the flesh, he would not have led them to change by the Holy Spirit.

Yet dispensationalism, Christian Zionism, Separation Theology or the Rapture Theory says or strongly implies that the physical bloodline still exists.

"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

In his book, Dispensationalism (1966), Charles Ryrie says "The
essence of Dispensationalism, then, is the distinction between Israel
and the church." (page 3, "Dispensationalism")

J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in his
book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church
and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan.
The church is a mystery, unrevealed in the Old Testament. (page 193,
J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965).

Dispensationalism is a religious system in which Israel is defined from the start as being only Old Covenant Israel, and can be no other for the dispensarionalists. Israel is always Old Covenant Israel for this tradition of men. For dispensatioimalism Israel is made up of those of the physical bloodline. Some dispensationalists will deny this is true, but their theology has to be defined clearly - and by what its founders have said about it.

You've proven one thing - that when Paul relates in that same chapter (in Philippians 3) that "we are the circumcision" he is referring to himself and those of his fellow, Physical, Believing Israelites in the Body at Philipi, in contrast to those their Israelite nation not only in Unbelief, but in severe opposition to them.

Other than, you have proven...nothing but your own bias...once more.
 

northwye

New member
"Though I have wherof I might rejoice in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath wherof he might trust in the flesh: much more I:
5 circumcised the eighth day of ye kindred of Israel of ye tribe of Benjamin an Hebrew borne of ye Hebrews: as concerning the law a Pharisee...8 But the things that were advantage unto me I counted loss for Christ's sake.
8 Yea I think all things but loss for that excellent knowledge sake of Christ Jesus my Lord. For whom I have counted all things loss and do judge them but dung that I might win Christ." Philippians 3: 4-5, 7-8

Paul says that he is a Hebrew, of the stock of Israel, and was a Pharisee, but he now counts this physical bloodline as dung. that he might win Christ.

This is not the only text in the New Testament that teaches that the physical bloodline from Abraham though Isaac and Jacob was changed in the New Covenant. The physical bloodline in Galatians 3 became a spiritual line of descent in Christ.

Galatians 3: 3,16-17, 26-29 says " Are ye so unwise that after ye have begun in the Spirit ye would now end in the flesh?.....To Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He sayeth not in the seeds as in many: but in thy seed as in one which is Christ.
17 This I say that the law which began afterward beyond .iiii.C and .xxx. years (430 years) doth not disannul the testament that was conformed before of God unto Christ ward to make the promise of none effect."

And Hebrews 10: 9 says "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

In II Corinthians 3: 7-11 says "If the ministration of death thorough the letters figured in stone was glorious so that the children of Israel could not behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance which glory nevertheless is done away.
8 why shall not the ministration of the Spirit be much more glorious?
9 For if ye ministration of condemnation be glorious: much more do the the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For no doubt that which was there glorified is not once glorified in respect of this exceeding glory.
11 Then if that which is destroyed was glorious much more shall that which remaineth be glorious."

But these guys come along and argue against these NT scriptures above.

Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

In his book, Dispensationalism (1966), Charles Ryrie says "The
essence of Dispensationalism, then, is the distinction between Israel
and the church." (page 3, "Dispensationalism")

To argue against the absolute truth of scripture is to set up an ant-thesis against the thesis of scripture in the Hegelian Dialectic, which is based upon the early Greek philosophy of the dialectic.

See I Timothy 6: 20, ω τιμοθεε την παρακαταθηκην φυλαξον εκτρεπομενος τας βεβηλους κενοφωνιας και αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως

The word anti-thesis is αντιθεσεις.

αντιθεσεις, or anti-thesis, is a technical term in the early Greek philosophy of the διαλεκτική, or dialectic, before the time of Christ.

There are other Greek words used in the New Testament which mean opposition, such as anthistémi, antidiatithémi, antipolítef̱si̱, or enantío̱si̱.

I Timothy 6: 20-21 says to avoid the anti-thesis of knowledge falsely called, which some professing have erred concerning the faith."
 
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Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
Israel was not set aside as dispys claim. Israel, continued--


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel (the unbelievers of it)hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

LA
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
You've proven one thing - that when Paul relates in that same chapter (in Philippians 3) that "we are the circumcision" he is referring to himself and those of his fellow, Physical, Believing Israelites in the Body at Philipi, in contrast to those their Israelite nation not only in Unbelief, but in severe opposition to them.

Other than, you have proven...nothing but your own bias...once more.

The unbelieving Israel of the old covenant ceased to exist.

Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Only the elect survived as the NT church to which was added any that believe from any nation to this very day.

LA
 

northwye

New member
Romans 11: 1-5 teaches that an elect remnant of Old Covenant Israel, who were of the bloodline from Abraham, became the beginning of New Covenant Israel. This fulfilled the prophecy of Jeremiah 18: 1-6 that God would remake Israel, and Hosea 2: 23 was begun to be fulfilled when in Acts 10 non-Jews became born again in Christ by the word of Peter, and Paul affirms in Romans 10: 12 and in Galatians 3: 28 that no difference exists between elect Jew and elect non-Jew. Dispensationalism gets this all wrong in saying there is only Old Covenant Israel and the Church.
 

Interplanner

New member
Romans 11: 1-5 teaches that an elect remnant of Old Covenant Israel, who were of the bloodline from Abraham, became the beginning of New Covenant Israel. This fulfilled the prophecy of Jeremiah 18: 1-6 that God would remake Israel, and Hosea 2: 23 was begun to be fulfilled when in Acts 10 non-Jews became born again in Christ by the word of Peter, and Paul affirms in Romans 10: 12 and in Galatians 3: 28 that no difference exists between elect Jew and elect non-Jew. Dispensationalism gets this all wrong in saying there is only Old Covenant Israel and the Church.



Good posts, NorthW; I'm not sure D'ism knows Gal 3 exists.
 

Interplanner

New member
This is a hobby; I'm not being paid for what I'm trained in professionally here. I use my concentration on my script development clients.
 
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