Peter and Paul
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Derf
Well-known member
can you give scripture references for each of those?
Right Divider
Body part
Audience...
Jesus:
Peter:
Jesus:
Matt 15:24 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Peter:
Acts 2:22 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Paul:Rom 11:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:13) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Right Divider
Body part
Prophecy...
Jesus:
Jesus:
Luke 24:44 (AKJV/PCE)
(24:44) And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
Peter:Acts 3:21 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Paul:Rom 16:25 (AKJV/PCE)
(16:25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Derf
Well-known member
Jesus went to the Samaritans.
John 4:32-34 KJV — But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of. Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
By this, Jesus explains that He has been doing the will of His Father in telling the Samaritans about Himself.
Are they considered part of the lost sheep of Israel? I think they could be included, as the woman at the well claimed Jacob as her ancestor. But see below for Jesus' thoughts on it.
Of course Peter addresses the people he is talking to there, but that is hardly a passage that limits him to just the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and it specifically excludes the Samaritans.
Here, Jesus sends Peter to just the Jews, not Gentiles OR Samaritans:
Matthew 10:5 KJV — These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Matthew 10:6 KJV — But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
From those two passages (Matt 10 and the woman at the well), we can see that while Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, He didn't restrict Himself to the lost sheep of Israel. His audience was therefore broader than just the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And not His audience only, but theirs as well:
John 4:35 KJV — Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
They were told to look around and see that there were fields in their view (they were still at the well in Samaria), that they would be harvesting.
Finally, Jesus gave the Apostles a new charge in Acts 1 that INCLUDED the previously excluded Samaritans.
Acts 1:8 KJV — But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
We know the apostles were faithful in this part of there mission, because they baptized Samaritans which then received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:25 KJV — And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
In other words, the audience changed sometimes.
We've been through this: Paul consistently preached to Jews even after his agreement with Peter and friends.
Acts 28:23 KJV — And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Acts 28:30-31 KJV — And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, (Jjews or Gentiles) Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Right.
This is an instance where one must make a decision on what "lost sheep" means theologically.
The descendants of Jacob were scattered throughout the whole world and we have no scriptural record of Jesus literally visiting all those areas.
One must also make a decision on whether the Lord being "sent" to the lost sheep of the house of Israel can only be limited to His literal presence while he walked the earth in flesh before His resurrection.
Consider the notion that during Pentecost Jews came from all over the world and returned to the areas they came from; thus spreading the message throughout the world.
Why can it not be said that the presence of the Lord was with them when they did so, and thus can be theologically said that the Lord was sent to all nations?
An implication that the whole house of Israel (those of both the northern & southern kingdoms) were reunited as one in a theological sense but not a literal sense.
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Right Divider
Body part
Yes, Israel was scattered throughout the world several times in their long history.
What was "the message" that Jesus was preaching and that Jesus sent to the twelve to preach? It was the gospel of the kingdom... i.e., that the kingdom was at hand.
Peter and the eleven had the added "message" that the King was resurrected. And that the King would return and establish the kingdom, if the nation would only repent of their unbelief and their murder of the King.
What you cannot find during Jesus' earthly ministry, nor in the twelve's Pentecostal preaching is the gospel of the grace of God. It's just not there. Not once will you see them preach that Christ died for their sins (let alone the sins of the whole world) or that they could be saved freely by God's grace through faith alone.
The words "died" and "sins" are found together only in a single verse in all of scripture:
1Cor 15:3 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Jesus' "message" was focused on the nation of Israel, even though many members of the nation of Israel were scattered into gentile lands.
Many of the prophecies about the rejoining of the two were clearly not completed in a literal sense... they will be in the future.
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Derf
Well-known member
Which scriptures was it according to, if it's not found in any other scripture?
I know. I bet you do too!
The same scriptures that both Jesus and Paul said to search. (John 5:39, Act 17:11)
Though it was a mystery previously veiled in scripture because it was necessary to veil beforehand, for had they known they would not have crucified the Lord (1 Cor 2:8); but in hindsight it became clear to those with eyes to see and ears to hear.
Derf
Well-known member
Maybe this one:
Isaiah 53:5 KJV — But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Right Divider
Body part
Are you confused or dishonest?
Paul gave no command to "search the scriptures" in Acts 17.
Acts 17:1-4 (AKJV/PCE)
(17:1) Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: (17:2) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, (17:3) Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. (17:4) And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
Acts 17:10-11 (AKJV/PCE)
(17:10) ¶ And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews. (17:11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
They (those in Thessalonica) searched the scriptures of their own accord.Paul was NOT preaching the gospel of the grace of God. Paul was FIRST trying to simply get the unbelieving Jews to believe that Jesus was the Christ and that Christ was resurrected from the dead.
Eph 3:8-12 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; (3:9) And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (3:10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, (3:11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: (3:12) In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Paul said that he was preaching the UNSEARCHABLE riches of Christ and that the fellowship of the mystery that was HID IN GOD from the beginning of the world.Someone has mislead you badly.
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Absolutely.
Isaiah 53 tells all about the suffering of the Lord Jesus Christ.
And Paul directs attention to the story by quoting the opening verse of Isaiah 53 (Rom 10:16).
Paul consistently used the scripture to make the case of the gospel, as did the other apostles, and as we should do as well.
Derf
Well-known member
The riches are unsearchable, but not the scriptures. Jesus and Paul both explained using the OT scriptures why Jesus had to die. It was hid, but not once the object of the hiding was achieved--then it could be revealed.
Exactly!
And Paul beautifully explains why that mystery had been veiled:
1 Corinthians 2:7-10 ESV
(7) But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
(8) None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
(9) But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—
(10) these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
Right Divider
Body part
That was certainly no secret.
The point Paul was making is unbelief. That's what that whole passage is about:
Rom 10:21 (AKJV/PCE)
(10:21) But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
The Bible clearly says that "the fellowship of the mystery" was HID IN GOD from the beginning of the world. HID IN GOD and NOT "hid in the scripture".
I don't think that you guys even know what the fellowship of the mystery is. Nor the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began. Rom 16:25.
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Derf
Well-known member
Not just the suffering, but it was for their sin ("iniquity*)
Right.
And Paul certainly knew that and vowed to tell all that the Lord Jesus Christ was the very one that was crucified for it, and thus was the fulfillment of Isaiah 53.
Right Divider
Body part
Again, not the mystery.... not "my gospel".
Yeppers.
It was the main part of the gospel that all the apostles (including Paul) taught.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 ESV
(1) Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
(2) and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
(3) For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
(4) that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
Right Divider
Body part
Again, for the deaf people here.... that was not the mystery.
Paul's gospel was not based on nothing.