ECT Our triune God

[Lighthouse]

As God is one person according to--

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

then it should be clear that God was speaking to His Heavenly host.

The word "our" is not a three person word.

LA

You're a moron. "our" is plural and God did not make man in the image of the angels, but rather in His own image, as Genesis 1:27, the verse right after the verse in question, tells us. So He says, "Let's make man in Our image, in our likeness," then He makes man in His own image.:think:

In Genesis 1:26 "our" is clearly first person plural.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You're a moron. "our" is plural and God did not make man in the image of the angels, but rather in His own image, as Genesis 1:27, the verse right after the verse in question, tells us. So He says, "Let's make man in Our image, in our likeness," then He makes man in His own image.:think:

In Genesis 1:26 "our" is clearly first person plural.

No.

The angels have had much to do with creation, and the angels are in the image of God but are not man.---

Jdg 13:15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.
Jdg 13:16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD.
Jdg 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
Jdg 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?
Jdg 13:19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.
Jdg 13:20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.

LA

 

[Apple7]

No.

The angels have had much to do with creation, and the angels are in the image of God but are not man.---

Jdg 13:15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.
Jdg 13:16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD.
Jdg 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
Jdg 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?
Jdg 13:19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.
Jdg 13:20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.

LA

What you have just quoted from Judges (even in your truncated version) puts the nail in the uni-coffin.

These verses are discussing Malek Yahweh - which means 'Messenger'...not angel!

Further, how could you miss that Malek Yahweh is offered-up an animal sacrifice which only God is privileged to?!

How is it that Gideon, in a few chapters prior, sits and talked with Yahweh (i.e. Malek Yahweh), and then claims that he saw God and lived?

How is it that Manoah and his wife do likewise?

 

[Pierac]

I want to thank those who have supported this thread and not hijacked it.

Thank you
SovereigntyisGod - great verses

Thank you
Nihlo - esoteric, but supportive

Thank you
SonOfJack - great use of scriptures

Thank you
SaultoPaul - scripture were great

Thank you
Tico - for thread support

Thank you
Buzzword - for asking the right questions

Thank you
Colossians - for researching help here in your post

Thank you
-FoC- Who carried the thread early on

Thank you
godrulz - for emphasizing ettiquete and our triune God and defending in thread from first to last

Thank you
Totton Linnet - for hanging in there for the long haul

Thank you
Nang - for reminding us of the OP

Thank you
AMR - for timely links and weighing in with your considerable earned knowledge

Thank you
Nick M - for agreeing with all of us that John 1 puts this debate to rest

Thank you
John W - He virtually carried the thread for about 30 pages!

Thank you
Nicholsmom - for continued encouragement

Thank you
Ryan Collins - for asking good questions

Thank you
Rocketman - for asking good questions and support

Thank you
fzappa13 - for not molesting the thread as many others did and for supporting it in your own way

Thank you
Zippy - for chiming in so clearly

Thank you
Rainee - for cheering and supporting

Thank you
Student_ad_X - for suscribing and his continued support

Thank you
Geralduk - for summarizing this thread

Thank you
ttruscott - for an apt illustration

Thank you
Bright Raven - for jumping in with both feet

Thank you
Apple7 - for not only jumping in, but championing our triune God all over this forum and has stuck with this thread for 30 pages

Thanks JonahofAkron - for your sense of humor

Thanks OneGodInChrist - though not triune, supported this thread against arian mistakes

Thank you
Redeemed-777 - for weighing in

Thank you
Wile E. Coyote - for jumping in soundly with both feet

To all others who have supported this thread and I have missed, thank you.

Nice, but how are you going to explain to JESUS... your brother... that he does not have a God like He teaches you?

Make no mistake Lon.... you will have to give account to you brother Jesus! What? Are you going to say to your brother Jesus? He is GOD?

Now you have to think a little deeper than your traditions of men! :think:

First grader!
oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Apple7]

Make no mistake...Paul

You have been owned and spanked.

Keep running, brother...:cigar:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

What you have just quoted from Judges (even in your truncated version) puts the nail in the uni-coffin.

These verses are discussing Malek Yahweh - which means 'Messenger'...not angel!

Further, how could you miss that Malek Yahweh is offered-up an animal sacrifice which only God is privileged to?!

How is it that Gideon, in a few chapters prior, sits and talked with Yahweh (i.e. Malek Yahweh), and then claims that he saw God and lived?

How is it that Manoah and his wife do likewise?

The bible--

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


This also proves that when God sent an angel (which looked like men) they were talking to God without the messenger being God.

This was also the case with Jesus who is a man (not an angel, nor God Himself) as the Bible says over and over, which you deny.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You're a moron. "our" is plural and God did not make man in the image of the angels, but rather in His own image, as Genesis 1:27, the verse right after the verse in question, tells us. So He says, "Let's make man in Our image, in our likeness," then He makes man in His own image.:think:

In Genesis 1:26 "our" is clearly first person plural.

Elohiym is first person plural but the plurality is not of persons.

First person does not become plural persons.

Moses was elohiym. Did he become plural persons?

No.

LA

 

[Lon]

Nice, but how are you going to explain to JESUS... your brother... that he does not have a God like He teaches you?

Make no mistake Lon.... you will have to give account to you brother Jesus! What? Are you going to say to your brother Jesus? He is GOD?

Now you have to think a little deeper than your traditions of men! :think:

First grader!
oly::sherlock:
Paul

Thanking people for following the OP gets this for a result?:doh:

I really didn't think you could hurt your reputation any worse, Pierac Paul

P.S.

Spoken... like a true first grader!

I'm like a MIT theological professor posting against a another first grader...

oly::sherlock:
Paul

I've never been banned before. Paul
To be honest... I thought it was going to be related to my attitude... As Lon pointed out, it has not been to my standards lately.

It's like a MIT professor teaching the ABC's to first graders... Over time there will be a loss of patience when the children still don't get it!


Still, I could be nicer... Right Lon... On this we can agree
Paul

What happened to the 'nicer' Paul? It wasn't exactly an apology, but...
...and you get stuck in themes a lot, it looks like first-grade is on your mind for some reason...
It is hard to take a slam personally when it is the same you are doling out to everybody. Are you in a creative rut?

 

[Lon]

Lon, you may well be one of the most conscientious posters it has been my pleasure to encounter. Wish there were more like you. I would likely participate more were that the case.

Kudos to Lon for starting this thread...!

I enjoy reading your insight.

Thank you two, but the spotlight was meant to shine on those who have helped carry the OP, not me His blessings and thanks again

 

[Lon]

A small portion from AMR

A small portion from AMR

About 4 1/2 years ago, AMR posted this behemoth piece. He steered us toward it near the beginning of this thead. I repost a portion of it here:

...

Dr. Robert Reymond​

...
The Trinity’s textual warrant

...

Isaiah 48:16: “…at the time it happens I [a divine speaker] am there. And now the sovereign Lord has sent me, with his Spirit.”

Isaiah 61:1: “The Spirit of the Lord is on me [a divine speaker], because the Lord has anointed me.” (see Luke 4:16-21)

Isaiah 63:9-10: “…the Angel of [God’s] presence saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old. Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit.”

Zechariah 2:1-10: “‘I am coming, and I will dwell among you,’ declares the Lord. ‘Many nations…will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me.’”

Matthew 28:19: “…in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Mark 1:10-11 (and the synoptic parallels): “…the Spirit descended on Jesus like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: ‘You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.’”

John 14:16-26: “I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth…if anyone loves me,…my Father will love him, and we will come…and we will make our home with him…the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things….”

John 15:26: “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who comes forth from [ ejkporeuvetai, ekporeuetai] the Father, he will testify of me.”

John 16:7-15: “Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you…when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth…All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.”

Romans 8:1-11: “You…are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And in anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ…And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through the Spirit, who lives in you.”

1 Corinthians 12:3-6: “There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.”

2 Corinthians 13:14: “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

Galatians 4:4-6: “…when the time had fully come, God sent his Son…to redeem those under the law that we might receive the full rights of sons. Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of the Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, ‘Abba, Father.’”

Ephesians 1:3, 14: “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us…having believed, you were marked in [the Lord] with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.”

Ephesians 2:18: “…through [Christ] we…have access to the Father by one Spirit.”

Ephesians 4:4-6: “…there is…one Spirit…one Lord…one God and Father of all….”

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14: “…from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and belief of the truth. He called you…that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Titus 3:4-6: “But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us…because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior.”

1 Peter 1:2: “[You] have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.” And

Jude 20-21: “…dear friends,…pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”[5]

However, we are not restricted for our evidence for the Trinity just to the biblical affirmations in which all three persons are mentioned in a given context. Since the deity and personal subsistence of the Father may be viewed as a given, the evidence for the Trinity is also discoverable in the totality of biblical data that teaches the deity of Jesus Christ and the distinct personhood of God the Holy Spirit. Said another way, whatever biblical evidence of whatever kind, wherever expressed in Scripture, that can be adduced in support of the deity of Christ and the distinct personhood of the Holy Spirit is also evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity. And the biblical evidence supporting these two doctrines is manifest and massive. The evidence for Christ’s deity includes the Old Testament’s adumbrations and predictions of a divine Messiah, Jesus’ own self-testimony in word and deed, his resurrection from the dead, and the New Testament writers’ united witness to his deity, specifically their employment of qeo" , theos (“God”), as a Christological title in Acts 20:28, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8, 2 Peter 2:1, John 1:1, 1:18, 20:28, and 1 John 5:20. And the evidence for the Spirit’s distinct personhood includes the personal pronouns that the Scriptures use of him in John 15:26, John 16:13-14, Acts 10:19-20, and Acts 13:2, the personal attributes such as wisdom (Isa 11:2, 1 Cor 2:10-11), will (John 3:8, 1 Cor 12:11), and power (Isa 11:2, Mic 3:8, Acts 10:38, Rom 15:13, and Eph 3:16) that the Scripture ascribe to him, and the many personal activities (Mark 13:11b, Acts 13:2, 21:11, Luke 12:12, Rom 15:30) that the Scriptures attribute to him....

 

[Apple7]

The bible--

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

As stated, no one has ever seen God the Father.

However, thousands of people have seen God the Son, and lived to tell about it.

This also proves that when God sent an angel (which looked like men) they were talking to God without the messenger being God.

Your very own example, from Judges, has Malek Yahweh being referred to as 'Yahweh' and being worshiped as God.

So...no, you have absolutely no ground to stand on.

This was also the case with Jesus who is a man (not an angel, nor God Himself) as the Bible says over and over, which you deny.

LA

Jesus is God, as told to us in the Holy Bible.

This is grammatically irrefutable.

 

[Lighthouse]

Elohiym is first person plural but the plurality is not of persons.

First person does not become plural persons.

Moses was elohiym. Did he become plural persons?

No.

LA

:duh:

That's you. You're a drooling idiot.

 

[Pierac]

Whoever said that it was a verse?

You keep busting yourself wide open every time your fingers touch the keyboard...


No.

Its not a translation, goofy.:dizzy:

Further, its about 1300 years old.


No, paul.

Not even close.

It's Arabic...and thanks for making an absolute fool out of yourself.

Again.:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Arabic... so what??? Wow, big suprise! :doh:

So explain how this posted verse supports your view? I have from the beginning said it does not support your Trinity! So make a fool out of me and show all who read how the writings you posted supports the Trinity! Idiot, the word verse can apply to any quote made from any book! What's the language or book it's written in have to do with anything? You the one who quoted it to support YOUR view.

Your just like a typical liberal... Post verses with out any explanation of how it supports your beliefs and then call others fools for not agreeing when it does not apply!

So, after being spanked and spanked you still have yet to explain how it supports your view? WE are all waiting!

Call me what ever you want... I'm calling you out... Explain how this Arabic verse supports your Traditions of men Trinity. The fact is... you can not... Why? Because the verse you quoted has nothing to do with the trinity... Just like I posted from the beginning!

You make it easy!
oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Apple7]

Arabic... so what??? Wow, big suprise!

It was for you.

So explain how this posted verse supports your view? I have from the beginning said it does not support your Trinity!

You just found out that it was Arabic.

Now you need to know how to read it.

So make a fool out of me....

You have already done that for us, paul...

 

[Pierac]

P.S.

What happened to the 'nicer' Paul? It wasn't exactly an apology, but...

...and you get stuck in themes a lot, it looks like first-grade is on your mind for some reason...

It is hard to take a slam personally when it is the same you are doling out to everybody. Are you in a creative rut?

That was the nicer Paul...

Creative rut? What are you talking about? I'm not creating anything... I'm just responding to the same old crap over and over again... I reply... I do not initiate this Trinity crap!

I think I would vomit before initiating another Thread on this topic! Yet, I spank the traditions of men, when ever they post their lies to humanity. It would be a sin... to allow such an insult to the one true God. Really... How can spanking TRINITARIANS be considered being in a rut?

It's like your saying some one who keeps teaching Jesus Saves... is in a Rut! I think not Lon!


Paul

 

[Pierac]

About 4 1/2 years ago, AMR posted this behemoth piece. He steered us toward it near the beginning of this thead. I repost a portion of it here:

Wow, did you even read the verses you posted?

Here are the first three...


Isaiah 48:16: “…at the time it happens I [a divine speaker] am there. And now the sovereign Lord has sent me, with his Spirit.”

GOD sent me! Yes, but who sends God?

Isaiah 61:1: “The Spirit of the Lord is on me [a divine speaker], because the Lord has anointed me.” (see Luke 4:16-21)

God anointed me! But who anoints God?

Isaiah 63:9-10: “…the Angel of [God’s] presence saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old. Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit.”

HOW did the Angel of [God’s] presence saved them...?

"Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way ... Take ye heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not (be not rebellious against him): for he will not pardon your transgression; for my name is in him" "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. "For My angel will go before you… (Exodus 23:20-23).

In this passage the angel was to be for Israel in the place of God; he was to speak God's words, and judge them. In fact the angel expressed God's name; he was God for them. Now if this was true of an angel of the Lord, how much more of the Son of God himself?

Not a single verse you re-posted from AMR supports any Trinity! :doh:

oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Lon]

That was the nicer Paul...
is in a Rut! I think not Lon!
Paul

Uhh, the "First-grade" remark, Paul. I did a quick look at your posts and low and behold, "First-grader...something something" is there about 10 times. Not very original.

 

[Lon]

Isaiah 48:16: “…at the time it happens I [a divine speaker] am there. And now the sovereign Lord has sent me, with his Spirit.”

GOD sent me! Yes, but who sends God?

Isaiah 61:1: “The Spirit of the Lord is on me [a divine speaker], because the Lord has anointed me.” (see Luke 4:16-21)

God anointed me! But who anoints God?

Isaiah 63:9-10: “…the Angel of [God’s] presence saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old. Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit.”

HOW did the Angel of [God’s] presence saved them...?

"Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way ... Take ye heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not (be not rebellious against him): for he will not pardon your transgression; for my name is in him" "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. "For My angel will go before you… (Exodus 23:20-23).

In this passage the angel was to be for Israel in the place of God; he was to speak God's words, and judge them. In fact the angel expressed God's name; he was God for them. Now if this was true of an angel of the Lord, how much more of the Son of God himself?

Not a single verse you re-posted from AMR supports any Trinity! :doh:

oly::sherlock:
Paul

Save that facepalm, Paul. You are ridiculous. Look up, notice you grabbed a whole other irrelevant verse (because you had to), and see if you notice your mistake for Isaiah...(it is huge and glaring all of us see it...)

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Wow, did you even read the verses you posted?

Here are the first three...


Isaiah 48:16: “…at the time it happens I [a divine speaker] am there. And now the sovereign Lord has sent me, with his Spirit.”

GOD sent me! Yes, but who sends God?

The divine speaker who is sent is the CREATOR of verses 12-13,

12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.

13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.

The divine speaker who is sent by God makes two assertions about Himself,

1. He says, "I am the First and the Last."

Jesus is the First and the Last, Revelation 1:8, 17; 22:13

2. He says, "My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And my right hand has stretched out the heavens."

The Father attributed the creation to the Son saying,

But to the Son He says:


“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And:


“You, Lord [YHWH], in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

It appears as if the Father does not accept Pierac's conclusion that the divine speaker's being sent by God excludes Him from being God Himself for,

1. The Father explicitly calls the Son by the name "God."
2. The Son is called "God" and yet is anointed by God.
3. The Father addresses the Son as "LORD" (YHWH, in Psalm 102 which the Father is citing) and attributes the creation to the work of His Hands.

Pierac has been spanked again but he keeps on coming back for more.

 

[Apple7]

Uhh, the "First-grade" remark, Paul. I did a quick look at your posts and low and behold, "First-grader...something something" is there about 10 times. Not very original.

There is a trend here, Lon....brother P. repeatedly mentions small children and spanking, etc. etc....no doubt he has a child fetish and is in all likelihood a pedophile.