ECT Our triune God

[Apple7]

It tells me that there is One God the father who is the creator of ALL.

Confirming that Jesus is the creator, we have the following…


Peter to the Jews

ο θεος αβρααμ και ισαακ και ιακωβ ο θεος των πατερων ημων εδοξασεν τον παιδα αυτου ιησουν ον υμεις μεν παρεδωκατε και ηρνησασθε κατα προσωπον πιλατου κριναντος εκεινου απολυειν υμεις δε τον αγιον και δικαιον ηρνησασθε και ητησασθε ανδρα φονεα χαρισθηναι υμιν τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης απεκτεινατε ον ο θεος ηγειρεν εκ νεκρων ου ημεις μαρτυρες εσμεν

ho theos abraam kai isaak kai iakōb ho theos tōn paterōn ēmōn edoxasen ton paida autou iēsoun on umeis men paredōkate kai ērnēsasthe kata prosōpon pilatou krinantos ekeinou apoluein umeis de ton agion kai dikaion ērnēsasthe kai ētēsasthe andra phonea charisthēnai umin ton de archēgon tēs zōēs apekteinate on ho theos ēgeiren ek nekrōn ou ēmeis martures esmen

The "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob," "the God of our fathers," glorified the Son of Him, Jesus, whom you delivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, that one having decided to set Him free. But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you. And the Originator of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses. (Acts 3.13 -15)


Here we have Peter declaring to the Jews that they rejected and killed the ‘Originator of Life’ (de archēgon tēs zōēs), Jesus.

Please tell us exactly how verses such as this one fit with your paradigm that the 'Father was the creator of all'.

 

[jerzy]

Jesus has a God, but his father does not. Because his father IS God.

Peace

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN.

 

[keypurr]

Confirming that Jesus is the creator, we have the following…


Peter to the Jews

ο θεος αβρααμ και ισαακ και ιακωβ ο θεος των πατερων ημων εδοξασεν τον παιδα αυτου ιησουν ον υμεις μεν παρεδωκατε και ηρνησασθε κατα προσωπον πιλατου κριναντος εκεινου απολυειν υμεις δε τον αγιον και δικαιον ηρνησασθε και ητησασθε ανδρα φονεα χαρισθηναι υμιν τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης απεκτεινατε ον ο θεος ηγειρεν εκ νεκρων ου ημεις μαρτυρες εσμεν

ho theos abraam kai isaak kai iakōb ho theos tōn paterōn ēmōn edoxasen ton paida autou iēsoun on umeis men paredōkate kai ērnēsasthe kata prosōpon pilatou krinantos ekeinou apoluein umeis de ton agion kai dikaion ērnēsasthe kai ētēsasthe andra phonea charisthēnai umin ton de archēgon tēs zōēs apekteinate on ho theos ēgeiren ek nekrōn ou ēmeis martures esmen

The "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob," "the God of our fathers," glorified the Son of Him, Jesus, whom you delivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, that one having decided to set Him free. But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you. And the Originator of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses. (Acts 3.13 -15)


Here we have Peter declaring to the Jews that they rejected and killed the ‘Originator of Life’ (de archēgon tēs zōēs), Jesus.

Please tell us exactly how verses such as this one fit with your paradigm that the 'Father was the creator of all'.

All things were created by God through Jesus. The big question is: Was Jesus a created spiritual being when creation took place through him. It has been stated in scripture that he was a form or image of God. Being "first-born" of all creation is a questionable statement.
Let us seek an answer to that question before we further discuss the trinity.
Don't be so defensive, let's get more info on this. I have openly asked for assistance on this issue but no one wishes to examine it.
Peace Apple not war

 

[Apple7]

All things were created by God through Jesus. The big question is: Was Jesus a created spiritual being when creation took place through him. It has been stated in scripture that he was a form or image of God. Being "first-born" of all creation is a questionable statement.
Let us seek an answer to that question before we further discuss the trinity.
Don't be so defensive, let's get more info on this. I have openly asked for assistance on this issue but no one wishes to examine it.
Peace Apple not war

The unitarian mindset cannot distinguish between Jesus’ deity and His humanity.

You will not find a Biblical verse which informs the reader that Jesus’ deity was ever created. However, you will find verses which tell us that His humanity was created.

Here is a classic Biblical example which mandates that Jesus’ divinity was not of the created order…



λεγοντες φωνη μεγαλη αξιον εστιν το αρνιον το εσφαγμενον λαβειν την δυναμιν και πλουτον και σοφιαν και ισχυν και τιμην και δοξαν και ευλογιαν και παν κτισμα ο εν τω ουρανω και επι της γης και υποκατω της γης και επι της θαλασσης [εστιν] και τα εν αυτοις παντα ηκουσα λεγοντας τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω η ευλογια και η τιμη και η δοξα και το κρατος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων

legontes phōnē megalē axion estin to arnion to esphagmenon labein tēn dynamin kai plouton kai sophian kai ischyn kai timēn kai doxan kai eulogian kai pan ktisma ho en tō ouranō kai epi tēs gēs kai hypokatō tēs gēs kai epi tēs thalassēs kai ta en autois panta ēkousa legontas tō kathēmenō epi tō thronō kai tō arniō hē eulogia kai hē timē kai hē doxa kai to kratos eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn

Saying with a great voice, Worthy is the Lamb having been slain to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing. And every created thing in Heaven, and upon the earth, and underneath the earth, and upon the sea, and the things in all of them, I heard saying: To Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the power forever and ever. Rev 5.12 - 13



These verses clearly show the separation between created things ‘ktisma’ and Jesus’ divinity.

All ‘pan’ created things ‘ktisma’ in Heaven, on earth, under the earth, and upon the sea, and all things in them – thus, all created things in God’s creation, are shown to worship Jesus as God.


Clearly, Jesus is not part of any creation here, as this verse imparts to the reader that Jesus is divine – He is to be worshiped by the creation.

Jesus is to be worshiped as the ‘One’ upon the Throne.

But, who is the ‘One’ upon the Throne?

Revelation tells us that The Father sits upon the Throne (Rev 3.21); that Jesus sits upon the Throne (Rev 3.21; 7.17; 22.1 - 3), & that Theos sits upon the Throne (Rev 7.10 – 11; 7.15; 12.15; 14.5; 19.4; 22.1 - 3).

This is the Trinity.

Jesus is worshiped as the ‘One’ Triune God upon the Throne.


How do scriptures such as these fit with your world-view?

 

[keypurr]

This is what is bothering me Apple7:

Col 1:15

(ASV) who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(BBE) Who is the image of the unseen God coming into existence before all living things;

(CEV) Christ is exactly like God, who cannot be seen. He is the first-born Son, superior to all creation.

(DRB) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

(ESV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(GNB) Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things.

(GW) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(ISV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(KJV) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

(NAS77) And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.

(NASB) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(NET.) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,

(NIrV) Christ is the exact likeness of God, who can't be seen. He is first, and he is over all of creation.

(NIV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(NKJV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(NRSV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(NRSVA) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(TNIV) The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Something to think about Apple7

Image is not God, it is a created Image

Image suggest not God but Image. That makes the meaning of firstborn questionable. Was he the first born of all creation?

Note this translation:

(BBE) Who is the image of the unseen God coming into existence before all living things;

HE CAME INTO EXISTANCE before all things.

First Born

Strongs Concordance
Verses 15-23 Christ in his human nature, is the visible discovery of the invisible God, and he that hath seen Him hath seen the Father. Let us adore these mysteries in humble faith, and behold the glory of the Lord in Christ Jesus. He was born or begotten before all the creation, before any creature was made; which is the Scripture way of representing eternity, and by which the eternity of God is represented to us.

Merriam-Webster
: first brought forth : ELDEST

Dictionary.com

adjective
1. first in order of birth; "the firstborn child"
noun
1. the offspring who came first in the order of birth

I question that first born means RANK. I think he was a created spiritual being, that is why HE HAS A GOD. He is the IMAGE of God.

OK, know I cannot read Greek, but the translators can and did.

Peace

 

[Apple7]

This is what is bothering me Apple7:

Col 1:15

(ASV) who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(BBE) Who is the image of the unseen God coming into existence before all living things;

(CEV) Christ is exactly like God, who cannot be seen. He is the first-born Son, superior to all creation.

(DRB) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

(ESV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(GNB) Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things.

(GW) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(ISV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(KJV) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

(NAS77) And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.

(NASB) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(NET.) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,

(NIrV) Christ is the exact likeness of God, who can't be seen. He is first, and he is over all of creation.

(NIV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(NKJV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(NRSV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(NRSVA) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(TNIV) The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Something to think about Apple7

Image is not God, it is a created Image

Image suggest not God but Image. That makes the meaning of firstborn questionable. Was he the first born of all creation?

Note this translation:

(BBE) Who is the image of the unseen God coming into existence before all living things;

HE CAME INTO EXISTANCE before all things.

First Born

Strongs Concordance
Verses 15-23 Christ in his human nature, is the visible discovery of the invisible God, and he that hath seen Him hath seen the Father. Let us adore these mysteries in humble faith, and behold the glory of the Lord in Christ Jesus. He was born or begotten before all the creation, before any creature was made; which is the Scripture way of representing eternity, and by which the eternity of God is represented to us.

Merriam-Webster
: first brought forth : ELDEST

Dictionary.com

adjective
1. first in order of birth; "the firstborn child"
noun
1. the offspring who came first in the order of birth

I question that first born means RANK. I think he was a created spiritual being, that is why HE HAS A GOD. He is the IMAGE of God.

OK, know I cannot read Greek, but the translators can and did.

Peace

Again, what you have chosen to do is to pluck one verse out of context for your position.

The very next verse, Col 1.16, informs the reader that the entire Universe was created 'by', 'through', and 'for' Jesus.

Observe the distinction that is made between Jesus' uncreated divinity, and the created order.

Col 1.15 therefore is absolutely no different than that of my previous Rev 5.12 - 13 example (in which you had absolutely no comment).

 

[keypurr]

Again, what you have chosen to do is to pluck one verse out of context for your position.

The very next verse, Col 1.16, informs the reader that the entire Universe was created 'by', 'through', and 'for' Jesus.

Observe the distinction that is made between Jesus' uncreated divinity, and the created order.

Col 1.15 therefore is absolutely no different than that of my previous Rev 5.12 - 13 example (in which you had absolutely no comment).

Your skipping over the verse. The question is about the IMAGE of God, is that created? I have no problem with verse 16, its 15 that I find questionable.

Most consider firstborn as a RANK, I wonder if that is the correct way to see it. I think firstborn could very well mean First Born or First Created. Was Jesus part of the created order? That is not a stupid question, it is a very important one. Was he God or "a" created godlike creature? Either was he had divinity of some kind.

 

[Pierac]

λεγοντες φωνη μεγαλη αξιον εστιν το αρνιον το εσφαγμενον λαβειν την δυναμιν και πλουτον και σοφιαν και ισχυν και τιμην και δοξαν και ευλογιαν και παν κτισμα ο εν τω ουρανω και επι της γης και υποκατω της γης και επι της θαλασσης [εστιν] και τα εν αυτοις παντα ηκουσα λεγοντας τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω η ευλογια και η τιμη και η δοξα και το κρατος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων

legontes phōnē megalē axion estin to arnion to esphagmenon labein tēn dynamin kai plouton kai sophian kai ischyn kai timēn kai doxan kai eulogian kai pan ktisma ho en tō ouranō kai epi tēs gēs kai hypokatō tēs gēs kai epi tēs thalassēs kai ta en autois panta ēkousa legontas tō kathēmenō epi tō thronō kai tō arniō hē eulogia kai hē timē kai hē doxa kai to kratos eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn

Saying with a great voice, Worthy is the Lamb having been slain to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing. And every created thing in Heaven, and upon the earth, and underneath the earth, and upon the sea, and the things in all of them, I heard saying: To Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the power forever and ever. Rev 5.12 - 13

These verses clearly show the separation between created things ‘ktisma’ and Jesus’ divinity.

Sorry, but Jesus is not on the throne.. In Rev 5.


Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created." Rev 5:1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.... Rev 5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. Rev 5:7 And He (Jesus) came and took the book out of the right hand of Him (God) who sat on the throne.

Jesus was given the right to take the book from GOD on the throne! You would see this if you stopped following your pastor as you sit and soak in Church! Jesus is not worshiped on the throne!

All ‘pan’ created things ‘ktisma’ in Heaven, on earth, under the earth, and upon the sea, and all things in them – thus, all created things in God’s creation, are shown to worship Jesus as God.


Clearly, Jesus is not part of any creation here, as this verse imparts to the reader that Jesus is divine – He is to be worshiped by the creation.

Jesus is to be worshiped as the ‘One’ upon the Throne.

But, who is the ‘One’ upon the Throne?

Revelation tells us that The Father sits upon the Throne (Rev 3.21); that Jesus sits upon the Throne (Rev 3.21; 7.17; 22.1 - 3), & that Theos sits upon the Throne (Rev 7.10 – 11; 7.15; 12.15; 14.5; 19.4; 22.1 - 3).

This is the Trinity.

Jesus is worshiped as the ‘One’ Triune God upon the Throne.


How do scriptures such as these fit with your world-view?

The overall context must be clearly borne in mind. Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not "the heavens and the earth" as per Genesis 1:1, but rather "all things in the heavens and on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.

The apostle Paul is "giving thanks to the Father" because He "has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light," which is to say that God the Father has "delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved son" (v. 12-13). Paul is thus speaking of the new creation that God has effected through His Son Jesus. He is speaking of things that relate to "redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (v.14) and "the church" (v.18) and how through the Son of the Father God has "reconciled all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross" (v.20).

When the Father raised Jesus to life again it was not only an isolated historical event. It was more importantly the injection into history of the beginning of "the eschatological resurrection." Eternal life-the life of the ages to come-is guaranteed in Christ who is "the first fruits" of all who will follow. (1Cor.15:23). Jesus is the first of a whole crop of new-life first to come! A new order of things now exist. A new age in prospect has already begun. If "anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things [have] passed away; behold, new things have come" (2 Cor. 5:17).

To be baptized into Christ is to already in prospect be "in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:5). We are already "seated with Christ in the heavenlies" (Eph. 2:6). Because Christ has been
raised to the glory of the Father, we are already in promise "glorified" (Rom. 8:30). We have been transferred into "the kingdom of His beloved Son" (Col. 1:13).

Stop posting as a Child... as if with out understanding!

Paul

 

[Pierac]

He is to be worshiped by the creation.

Really? :think:

Who does Jesus tell us to worship?

If Jesus is co-equal, and co-eternal with both the Holy Spirit and the Father, why would He tell us the true worshipers shall worship the Father?

What saith the scriptures?


Worship

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus' own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.

This is the biblical pattern throughout. The so-called Lord's prayer, the model prayer, teaches us to "pray in this way: our Father who art in heaven"(Matt. 6:9). This pattern of prayer and worship prescribed by our Lord Jesus is followed and sanctioned by every example given in Scripture. See the following:

"Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom.15:5-6).

" For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Eph 3:14)

" giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, " (Eph 5:20)

" We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, " ( Col 1:3 )

"giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light." (Col 1:12)

"And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father "through" him." (Col 3:17)

This list is by no means exhaustive. But it is sufficient to show that we are, with our Lord Jesus, to worship and pray to the Father. This is the usual pattern of prayer and worship in the New Testament. They prayed to the one God through the name or authority of Jesus Christ. They evidently were not aware that the Holy Spirit was God (a third person), for wherein all the pages of the Bible to the Saints pray to the Holy Spirit? And where in all the pages of Scripture do the worshipers of God sing to the Holy Spirit as is the general custom within Christendom today? What about those passages where the Lord Jesus is worship? Or where the Lord Jesus is pray to?
Surely this is proof positive that Jesus is God because only God is to be worshiped? (The words of Jesus are often used to substantiate this belief: "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve him only" (Matt. 4:10), as though Jesus meant: "I am the Lord your God, worship only me." But this meaning is totally incongruous and has no parallel in the New Testament record.) Then, of course, there is God the Father's own directive to the Angels concerning Jesus the son of God: "and let all the Angels of God worship him" (Heb. 1:6). The fact that Jesus is worship by Thomas as he falls at his feet and honors him with the confession, "My Lord and my God!" Too many presents the final proof that Jesus is God (John 20:28).

To all of this there is a very simple solution. Once again it comes back to a failure to understand biblical culture; a failure to read the Bible through Hebrew eyes. In the Old Testament in main Hebrew word for worship is shachah. It occurs about 170 times but the surprising thing is that only about half of this number relate to the worship of God as God. This fact is hidden in our English translations. The translators prefer to say "bow down to" or "revere" when shachah refers to homage paid to noble persons, whether Angels or men, but say "worship" when God is the object. This is a false distinction the original texts does not support. Here are just a view examples:

Lot "worshiped" the two strangers who looked like normal travelers as they entered
Sodom (Gen. 19:1).

Abraham "worshipped" the Gentile leaders of the land where he lived (Gen. 23:7).

Jacob "worshipped" his older brother Esau (Gen. 33:3).

Joseph's brothers "worshipped" him (Gen. 43:26).

Ruth "worshipped" Boaz (Ruth 2:10).

David "worshipped" Jonathan (1 Sam. 20:41).

David "worshipped" King Saul (1 Sam. 24:8).

Mephibosheth fell on his face and "worshipped" David (2 Sam. 9:6).

Abigail "worshipped" David the outlaw (1 Sam 25:23, 41).

The whole congregation "worshipped" the King (1 Chron. 9:20).

These are just a few instances of the many that could be cited to show the reluctance of the translators to consistently translate shachah as "worship" when worship of important persons was obviously a common feature of Hebrew culture. In Scripture worship is offered to God and to men. There is no special word in the Old Testament for "worship" reserved exclusively for God. But there is a reluctance to translate this one-word consistently. If you looked up your English translations of the above verses you will find that you do not use the "w" word. They prefer to say "bowed down" or "revered" or "pay homage to" instead of "worshiped." This inconsistency of translation has created the false impression that only God can be worshiped.

So then, how do we explain this in light of the clear command that we are to worship God the Father alone as both the first commandment and Jesus himself command? Is this a contradiction after all? No way. The answer is that whenever men "worshiped" other men it was a relative worship. In most of the examples above it is clear that the ones worshiped were God's representatives. Once again we are back to the principle of Jewish agency. The Israelites had no difficulty in offering this proportional or relative worship to the ones who came in Gods Name, with God's message. It is obvious that the first commandment "You must not bow yourself down [shachah] to them nor serve them" is not a prohibition against a relative worship of those worthy of it. If this was the case then obviously all these Old Testament godly men and women sinned greatly. God even promises a coming day when He will make our enemies "to come and worship at your feet, and to know that I have loved you" (Rev. 3:9). Such worship of the Saints at God's degree is clearly a relative and proportional worship. It is perfectly legitimate to give honor to whom honor is due. This is why many Jews felt no impropriety in "worshiping" Jesus in the Gospels because they recognized him as a prophet of God, or the Messiah sent from God. But it is preposterous to think these good people believe Jesus was Jehovah God just because they worshiped him. When they saw and heard the mighty works of Jesus they glorified God through him (Matt. 9:8; 11:27; 28:18; Luke 7:16; 9:11; 10:22). This fits the whole will of the New Testament teaching that it is God the Father who is to receive glory through His son Jesus (Eph. 1:3, 6, 12; 1 Pet. 1:3; Heb. 13:15, etc.). Christ's exaltation is the means to a higher end. For through him all worship is ultimately directed to God and Father.

To worship him (Jesus) as Lord Messiah is thus a divinely pleasing but subordinate or relative worship. It is instructive to read that in the coming Kingdom the Lord Jesus will orchestrate the worship of his brethren in the ultimate praise of his Father. He will "proclaim" the Name of God to his "brothers" and he will "in the mist of the congregation singing your praise" (Heb. 2:12). There, in that glorious Kingdom, Jesus Christ will continue to be a joyful worshiper of God his absolutely. All other divinely appointed worship is homage to persons who are not God himself. Jesus is among those worthy of such worship for he is worshiped as the one Messiah, God's supreme son and agent.

Jesus knew the prophecy: "Worship the Lord with reverence, and do homage to the Son" (Ps. 2: 11-12). Jesus knew God his Father had decreed "Let all the Angels of God worship him" (Psalms 97:7). Jesus knew that the angelic messengers of Jehovah had in the past received relative worship from God-pleasing men and women. Jesus knew that of the one true God could be addressed as though they were God. And Jesus knew he was the Son and ultimately agent of God, so how much greater his destiny! As the "only begotten Son" whom the father had "sealed" and commissioned he knew that whoever honored him honored the Father also. This was his Father's decree (Psalms 2:11-12; 97:7).

Psalms 2:11-12 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Psalms 97:7 All worshipers of images are put to shame, who make their boast in worthless idols; worship him, all you gods!

2Co 4:4 the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


Peace,
Paul

 

[Apple7]

Your skipping over the verse. The question is about the IMAGE of God, is that created? I have no problem with verse 16, its 15 that I find questionable.

Of course.

This is Jesus' humanity.

The Father never manifested Himself in the flesh, only the Son and the Spirit have done this.

Jesus is God in the flesh here, as well (John 10.30; 14.9; Col. 2.9).

Most consider firstborn as a RANK, I wonder if that is the correct way to see it. I think firstborn could very well mean First Born or First Created. Was Jesus part of the created order? That is not a stupid question, it is a very important one. Was he God or "a" created godlike creature? Either was he had divinity of some kind.

Again...Jesus' humanity was created....not His divinity.

 

[Apple7]

Sorry, but Jesus is not on the throne.. In Rev 5.

He is in(Rev 3.21; 7.17; 22.1 - 3).

Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."

Who sits upon the Throne here, brother?

Rev 5:1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.... Rev 5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. Rev 5:7 And He (Jesus) came and took the book out of the right hand of Him (God) who sat on the throne.

And?

Jesus was given the right to take the book from GOD on the throne! You would see this if you stopped following your pastor as you sit and soak in Church!

Jesus is not worshiped on the throne!

He is in Rev 5.12 -13

The overall context must be clearly borne in mind. Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not "the heavens and the earth" as per Genesis 1:1, but rather "all things in the heavens and on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.

All creation worships Jesus as God in Rev 5.12 - 13.

The apostle Paul is "giving thanks to the Father" because He "has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light," which is to say that God the Father has "delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved son" (v. 12-13). Paul is thus speaking of the new creation that God has effected through His Son Jesus. He is speaking of things that relate to "redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (v.14) and "the church" (v.18) and how through the Son of the Father God has "reconciled all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross" (v.20).

Jesus did things only God can do.

When the Father raised Jesus to life again it was not only an isolated historical event. It was more importantly the injection into history of the beginning of "the eschatological resurrection." Eternal life-the life of the ages to come-is guaranteed in Christ who is "the first fruits" of all who will follow. (1Cor.15:23). Jesus is the first of a whole crop of new-life first to come! A new order of things now exist. A new age in prospect has already begun. If "anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things [have] passed away; behold, new things have come" (2 Cor. 5:17).

Scripture states that the Trinity raised Jesus from the dead.



$20K.:chuckle:

 

[Apple7]

Really? :think:

John 4.23 – 24 Trinity Worship

αλλα ερχεται ωρα και νυν εστιν οτε οι αληθινοι προσκυνηται προσκυνησουσιν τω πατρι εν πνευματι και αληθεια και γαρ ο πατηρ τοιουτους ζητει τους προσκυνουντας αυτον πνευμα ο θεος και τους προσκυνουντας αυτον εν πνευματι και αληθεια δει προσκυνειν

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him. God is spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4.23 - 24)


True worship:

Father
Son (Truth)
Spirit


$20K not enough to open zem eyes, bro?

 

[godrulz]

John 4.23 – 24 Trinity Worship

αλλα ερχεται ωρα και νυν εστιν οτε οι αληθινοι προσκυνηται προσκυνησουσιν τω πατρι εν πνευματι και αληθεια και γαρ ο πατηρ τοιουτους ζητει τους προσκυνουντας αυτον πνευμα ο θεος και τους προσκυνουντας αυτον εν πνευματι και αληθεια δει προσκυνειν

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him. God is spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4.23 - 24)


True worship:

Father
Son (Truth)
Spirit


$20K not enough to open zem eyes, bro?

I am trinitarian, but this is an odd defense of it (goes beyond the text vs exegesis).

 

[Apple7]

I am trinitarian, but this is an odd defense of it (goes beyond the text vs exegesis).

The NT is clear that we need to worship God as He has revealed Himself – which is Triune - and these verses are no different than any others.

Paul clearly distanced himself from his unbelieving Jewish brethren by his following belief declaration:


But I confess this to you that according to the Way, which they say is a sect, so I worship the ancestral God believing all things according to that having been written in the Law and the Prophets, having hope toward God, which these themselves also admit, of a resurrection being about to be of the dead, both of just and unjust ones. (Acts 24.14)

Clearly, Paul builds upon the previous Hebrew prophets and is now able to worship God properly ‘according to The Way’ and according to that which had previously been written in the Torah and the prophets.

Obviously, Paul is able to see what his Jewish brethren have missed. Jews have been in denial of proper worship of God – and ‘The Way’ has laid the foundation for proper worship to God.


Proper worship of God:

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him. God is spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4.23 - 24)


This proper worship is as a Triune entity:

• Father
• Son (Truth)
• Spirit



Further, the Book of Revelation shows us clearly the deity interchangeability between Father, Son and Spirit and amply demonstrates that each receives worship as the one God.

You just learned another Trinitarian scripture set, brother...

 

[godrulz]

I agree about the worship of the triune God. We are to honor the Son even as we honor the Father (Jn. 5:23; Heb. 1:6).

I would not substitute Spirit for spirit or Jesus for truth in Jn. 4:24 (context determines if it is spirit or Holy Spirit, Jesus/Truth or generic truth).

Likewise, some have tried to take the title LORD JESUS CHRIST and make this a trinitarian reference to Father, Son, Holy Spirit. This is not defensible even though the trinity is (perhaps I misunderstand you?).

I Jn. 5:7 is also problematic from a textual criticism viewpoint (even though it is true).

 

[Apple7]

I agree about the worship of the triune God.

Yes.

We are to honor the Son even as we honor the Father (Jn. 5:23; Heb. 1:6).

Yes.

I would not substitute Spirit for spirit or Jesus for truth in Jn. 4:24 (context determines if it is spirit or Holy Spirit, Jesus/Truth or generic truth).

Why?

'Spirit' and 'Truth' are shown to be separate from the 'Father'.,,,and repeated for clarity.

After all, Jesus said that He, Himself was 'The Truth'....what other Truth do you know of?

Likewise, some have tried to take the title LORD JESUS CHRIST and make this a trinitarian reference to Father, Son, Holy Spirit. This is not defensible even though the trinity is (perhaps I misunderstand you?).

That would be oneness heresy, brother.

We are Trinitarians.

I Jn. 5:7 is also problematic from a textual criticism viewpoint (even though it is true).

Textual variants...

 

[godrulz]

The same exegetical mistake is made when JWs, etc. think all references to wisdom refer to Jesus (reducing him to creature). Proverbs 8 is a personification of Wisdom vs Folly, not a Christological passage. Just because Jesus is called the wisdom of God in the NT (I Cor. 1). You cannot splice all words together as referring to the same thing (YHWH is God and Satan is called god, but that does not mean YHWH is Satan).

Jn. 4:24 is a metaphysical statement about God's nature. God is spirit, immaterial, not material. It is not a reference to the person of the Holy Spirit (cf. Is. 9:6 is not a reference to God the Father, but Messianic vs modalism). Jesus is Truth, but the word has a semantical range of meaning (cf. Logos/Word...in Jn. 1 and Rev. 19, the word refers to Jesus, but in other contexts, it can refer to written words, etc....so it would be a mistake to read Jesus into every logos reference...I think this is what you are doing with this verse).

We stand together defending the triune understanding, but we lose credibility if we proof text/eisegete vs exegete. The evidence for the trinity does not rise or fall on this verse (nor is it explicitly trinitarian; it can be used to refute the Mormon idea that God is an evolved man with flesh and bones).

You are welcome:carryon:

I would be interested where you got your idea or if you can find any commentor/exegete that would interpret the verse the way you are. Peace out.

 

[keypurr]

Of course.

This is Jesus' humanity.

The Father never manifested Himself in the flesh, only the Son and the Spirit have done this.

Jesus is God in the flesh here, as well (John 10.30; 14.9; Col. 2.9).
Again...Jesus' humanity was created....not His divinity.

I understand your point Apple7, but I do not think you understand mine.
If he is the IMAGE of God, he must have been created. That would mean that he is not God, but a FORM or IMAGE of the true creator. Supposing this is true, that would show that God created all through Jesus. As the good book says, now Jesus says he has a God, Jesus says there is only one God.
So this theory is really not as far out as it may sound. It would certainly cause confusion in scripture as it has done. I'm thinking that this could very well be true understanding of who Jesus is/was. I know that this is just one verse and I am seeking for more. Who knows, maybe I have been given some wisdom. I have prayed for it a long time.

 

[keypurr]

Confirming that Jesus is the creator, we have the following…


The "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob," "the God of our fathers," glorified the Son of Him, Jesus, whom you delivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, that one having decided to set Him free. But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you. And the Originator of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses. (Acts 3.13 -15)

Here we have Peter declaring to the Jews that they rejected and killed the ‘Originator of Life’ (de archēgon tēs zōēs), Jesus.

Please tell us exactly how verses such as this one fit with your paradigm that the 'Father was the creator of all'.

ALL things come from God, even Jesus. Jesus was used in the creation, so was the Spirit. Jesus dies, God cannot die, God raised him, WHO? God raised him. All this has to be considered as we dig deeper into scripture. Knowing that Jesus has a God is very important. Thinking that he MAY be created is also important.

We both know that God has done many things that we will never fully understand, this may be one of them.

 

[Pierac]

Who sits upon the Throne here, brother?

GOD!

Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created." Rev 5:1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.... Rev 5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. Rev 5:7 And He (Jesus) came and took the book out of the right hand of Him (God) who sat on the throne.


Read it again, this time with out your trinity bias... God is on the Throne... The Lamb (Jesus) Is standing not sitting between the throne along with the four living creatures and elders! Yep, Would be pretty hard to approach himself and take a book out of his own right hand! All the while standing and sitting at the same time! :chuckle:... :hammer:

And?
He is in Rev 5.12 -13

Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb (Standing), be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

What part of and do you not understand? Apples AND oranges. :chuckle: Your saying apples and oranges are the same! :chuckle:

Jesus did things only God can do.

No doubt! But How....

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

Scripture states that the Trinity raised Jesus from the dead.

$20K.:chuckle:

Sorry, But I noticed you failed to provide such scripture that the Trinity raised Jesus from the dead! So let me provide scripture for you! God raised HIS Servant Jesus!

Act 3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." :readthis:

Act 5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. :readthis:

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),

Who's' God raised Jesus? Let's ask Jesus...
Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Rev 3:2 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. (Who raised me from the dead!)

Aren't your tired of me making you look so foolish with your non- biblical words and traditions of men?

oly::sherlock:
Paul