PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Then you should be tweaked at chrysostom for equating God to multiple beings as a family, even if you're still tweaked at me, also.
Sigh.
ECT Our triune God
- Thread starter Lon
- Start date
Then you should be tweaked at chrysostom for equating God to multiple beings as a family, even if you're still tweaked at me, also.
Sigh.
Chrys needs to deal with Chrys. It's not up to me.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Nice double standard. Amazing how you only apply that to him, not me.
PPS needs to deal with PPS. It's not up to you.
That's true, now i don't have to post it.
I never have understood why some people want to relate to God by comparing Him to human status?
Arsenios
Well-known member
Totally accurate -
We do not owe 10% ...
We owe 100%...
Every time...
No exceptions...
But 10% is good ekonomia, because 10% is a vast improvement from zero %... And we are enjoined to tke care of our own families, which can eat up some serious percentages!
A.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
LOL. Ummm... You just did. You're one living breathing double standard.
Just reiterating what you said.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Our debt was paid. We don't "owe" anything.
We are free to give all.
All the wealth of our be-ing and all our monetary wealth as led by the Spirit.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Here is the deal...
You give nothing - eg your fallen self...
You receive everything - Your God-Graced self...
But if you do not give who you are...
You will not receive from God the who you are not yet...
For the Gift of Divine Life, we owe - we must give up - our fallen life...
Lest one squanders the Gift of Grace...
It CAN be squandered...
In THIS life...
But EVERYTHING belongs to God...
NOTHING belongs to us...
You have to know this...
The giving of thanks in all things...
Absolutely essential for man...
God does not give the Gift of Life for evil...
Arsenios
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
No, HERE's the deal...
"Owe" and giving up are not the same thing.
Jesus Christ paid the debt. I "owe" nothing.
Giving up IS giving all. Every moment. Losing our life for His sake.
Bondservants. Ears pierced through with an awl.
My point was that the tithe is yet another prophetic symbol. All of God's ordinances are prophetic symbols. Like all symbols they point to a truth that has its basis in the spirit and its fulfillment in the future.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
So...
Arsenios
PPS
Arsenios
Let's take a look, shall we?
Two individuated "persons" co-own... let's say... a large ranch property.
Are those "persons" also individuated "beings"? Or are those two "persons" one "being" because they co-own a ranch?
Just because a species designation is shared, it doesn't mean every one of that species is combined as one being. Each are human beings or whatever other kind of being, sharing the same species designatiion.
Your argument for two "persons" owning the same property is nothing more than arguing that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are divine beings of the same species designation.
Multiple gods, not one being. And you're seriously making that the Orthodox position?
FAIL. Buttloads of FAIL. (Remember... one buttload is 126 US gallons.)
Arsenios
PPS
Arsenios
Let's take a look, shall we?
Two individuated "persons" co-own... let's say... a large ranch property.
Are those "persons" also individuated "beings"? Or are those two "persons" one "being" because they co-own a ranch?
Just because a species designation is shared, it doesn't mean every one of that species is combined as one being. Each are human beings or whatever other kind of being, sharing the same species designatiion.
Your argument for two "persons" owning the same property is nothing more than arguing that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are divine beings of the same species designation.
Multiple gods, not one being. And you're seriously making that the Orthodox position?
FAIL. Buttloads of FAIL. (Remember... one buttload is 126 US gallons.)
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I have come to see man's penchant for trying to grasp physical shadows being cast by spiritual things as the primary reason for the various controversies amongst the christian ranks.
... which is not to be confused with a pantload ...
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I normally eschew trite and clever one-liners; but your penchant for true cogent profundities is an exception.
Well said.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Of course not. LOL. A pantload is quite another matter.
Arsenios
Well-known member
That would seem to be the nub...
To which I replied:
Arsenios said:
PPS said:
Please...
Thank-you...
Substantive now!
Yes.
Yet you should note carefully that in terms of the ranch, they are no longer individuated, but both have all the powers of that ranch...
In terms of the "large ranch property, no... Not until they either divide the ranch or one buys the other out... In terms of fallen humanity, they are two fallen human beings, and are not Divine ones - They have two wills and autonomy of action one from the other, because of the imposed limits of their knowledge qua fallen man...
The ranch would, I presume, for it is your analogy, be the equivalent of "the unsearchable Riches of God", yet God is not the ranch but instead is the ownership of the two partners who own it. So that for the cowboys, they have to learn to get along, whereas for God, there is one Divine Will and all thoughts are already known, even ahead of, or before, time...
Marriage follows a similar pattern - Two become into one flesh - And when it is working, they act in each other's behalf, in self denial of their own behalf, and in this is Salvation given by God in His Holy Body...
This is about as close to your "two persons in one being" that mankind has managed to get in this fallen life, but it would seem that the exceptions of success are few and far between - The mirage of their marriage is seen for the most part only in the Honeymoon... And after the honeymoon comes the hard and dirty work of the marriage itself, and yet it is here that real success can occur, at least to a degree...
A far better degree can be found in at least some monasteries...
And the real Marriage is found in union with God by the solitary, or by the social when he closes the doors of his closet to pray alone...
We are way past shallow notions of species designators [perceptions of noted similarities mentally discerned and given conceptual designation in words.] We are instead approaching the ontological commonality of man with humanity... And that commonality is noetic... Man CAN know the thoughts of another person... That is a part of being human... Directly, not inferentially... Paul judged the sinful man from his cell in Rome AS IF he were there seeing him... That is a fairly standard thing for a man in Christ with Apostolic Gifts to do...
So YOU say, but you have not shown this to be so...
AND -
'Tain't necessarily so...
INSTEAD
They are Divine Hypostases having the Ousia of God, distinct without separation, united but having differing Hypostatic Features:
NAMELY:
1: The UNBEGOTTENNESS of the Father
2: The BEGOTTENNESS of the Son who IS begotten...
3: The PROCESSION of the Holy Spirit.
The Father is the One God Who has BEGOTTEN the Son and PROCESSED the Holy Spirit into His OUSIA as co-equal with Himself before the creation of existence...
126 gallons is good...
Butt-loads is denigratory...
I would add that Father, Son and Holy Spirit MUST be Hypostases, because each of them can be shown to act hypostatically...
Your answer would be that they ARE, but are the SAME Hypostasis of the Father...
To which I would reply, they have the SAME Ousia with Him...
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PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
No. The individuated "persons" that are BEINGS have jointly formed an entity. A corporation. They've incorporated their indivual hypostases and ousios into yet another enitity beyond themselves as entities. The "persons" AS BEINGS are not the ranch. They aren't real estate or buildings or fences or livestock.
And they remain individuated BEINGS, joined by a mutuality that is distinct from themselves.
The large ranch property is a corporate entity apart from the BEINGS who co-own it.
So now an ousia can be divided. Or somehow change ownership.
And this is how you want to depict ousia? Seriously? Divisible?
They are two hypostases, and they are two ousios of the same kind. Other ranches are not their ousia, and there are other ranches. Are all ranches the same ranch? No.
This is utterly stupid.
And now the ousia "has" the hypostases. Another conflation of your many conflations.
Something you've waffled on repeatedly.
No. This is your constant conflation of hypostatic union and perichoresis. Marriage is a hypostatic union. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit interpenetration is perichoresis.
You consistently interpose them; and you've used marriage hypostatic union to depict perichoresis of multiple hypostases.
Please go learn the difference. You're misrepresenting your own historical doctrine.
That's hypostatic union, not perichoresis. FAIL, FAIL, FAIL.
Hypostatic union again. It's not perichoresis.
Now you've gone Nestorian. Wrong Christology.
All hypostatic union. Perichoresis between humans is a result of each in hypostatic union.
Still hypostatic union.
I am. You sure aren't.
That's perichoresis. Predicated upon individuals in hypostatic union. Not all the same thing.
Been there, done that. That's perichoresis between human BEINGS as Believers or hypostatic union of Believer/God (IN Christ by His Spirit) to discern another human spirit of another human BEING.
Humans never become one being, but are conjoined spiritually in perichoresis because of individual hypostatic union with Christ.
You conflate the two and misrepresent your own professed historical doctrine. You're much more Tritheistic than Trinitarian.
Just did... again. You just combine perichoresis and hypostatic union.
You have no foundation to back up your false bare assertions. You can't even represent your Classic Trinity until you can distinguish perichoresis from hypostatic union. You were corrected months ago.
No multiple hypostases there. Filiation and spiration are multi-phenomenal.
AND THERE IT IS!!!! THE ADDITIONAL TWO HYPOSTASES WERE FILIATED AND SPIRATED INTO THE OUSIA AS A FOURTH COMPONENT OF GOD. "FROM" AND "TO" WOULD BE SPATIALITY, ALSO REQUIRING LINEARITY.
No more Immensity, Eternity, Infinity, or Simplicity for God. And now God is FOUR. The ousia is independent of the hypostases as another "sumptink".
And there are other issues you also wouldn't understand.
FAIL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's humor. Lighten up, conflation boy.
Of course. But multi-phenomenally the same hypostasis.
Yes, but not in your uni-phenomenal false reality of existence. Multi-phenomenally, which you can't comprehend because of your indoctrination.
They have the same ousia as well.
You have blinded yourself to the truth and projected created attributes upon God in place of His innate incommunicable attributes.
You have made God in man's image in triplicate. Gorilla-glued siamese triplets. On a ranch, no less.
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