Our Moral God

[Clete]

I can't believe you said that. It's as if you haven't read large swaths of the Bible. How can Jesus be fully God and fully man and be mortal? God is immortal.

If Jesus did not die we are all still in our sins and are the most pathetic of all men.

John 10: 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Yeah! That's "My Father loves me because I voluntarily choose to die so that I might rise from the dead."

1John 5: 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

If He is not immortal how can He give us what He does not possess?

If He did not rise from THE DEAD then He cannot.

The only reason we are mortal is because Adam and Eve sinned and we sin. Jesus never sinned even by a thought.

That may be why we are mortal but death was not thrust upon Jesus, God the Son, but rather He chose mortality for our sake.

John 14: 30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

To you those texts don't "prove" what I say because of your lack of an abiding relationship with God and a lack of faith. You lack faith because of your lack of an abiding relationship with God, John said:

No, it's because they don't say things that are in keeping with what you want us to believe.

1John 3: 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

This single thread is proof that you're a liar, Gary. Lying is sin!

Knowing God is eternal life.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Lack of a relationship with God means we are lost, not saved. Which means we have no spiritual discernment.

By you own argument you are lost, not saved and have no spiritual discernment!

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

 

[Right Divider]

Lack of a relationship with God means we are lost, not saved. Which means we have no spiritual discernment.

So says the anti-Christ that ignores the CROSS OF CHRIST.

Gal 6:14 (AKJV/PCE)​

(6:14) But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.​

 

[Derf]

I can't believe you said that. It's as if you haven't read large swaths of the Bible. How can Jesus be fully God and fully man and be mortal? God is immortal.

John 10: 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

1John 5: 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

If He is not immortal how can He give us what He does not possess?

The only reason we are mortal is because Adam and Eve sinned and we sin. Jesus never sinned even by a thought.

John 14: 30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

To you those texts don't "prove" what I say because of your lack of an abiding relationship with God and a lack of faith. You lack faith because of your lack of an abiding relationship with God, John said:

1John 3: 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Knowing God is eternal life.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Lack of a relationship with God means we are lost, not saved. Which means we have no spiritual discernment.

I don't understand how you can say that Jesus, who was still immortal, could die. Immortal means you can't die, despite the recent spate of super-hero movies suggesting otherwise.

 

[Gary K]

I don't understand how you can say that Jesus, who was still immortal, could die. Immortal means you can't die, despite the recent spate of super-hero movies suggesting otherwise.

I gave you scripture that shows no one took His life away from Him. He laid it down to save us and then took it back again.

Revelation 1: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[Derf]

I gave you scripture that shows no one took His life away from Him. He laid it down to save us and then took it back again.

You can't die if you're immortal. That's what immortal means. The scriptures you gave only prove He was mortal, because He died, however He might have done so. What you're suggesting is that anyone who might commit suicide could be counted as immortal, because no one took their lives away from them.

This is both frivolous and important at the same time. We shouldn't have to debate word meanings, except where there are multiple meanings and we have to pick the right ("correct", not "opposite of left") meanings. But it is important if we aren't using the same dictionary.

What do YOU think "immortal" means, Gary? Be thorough in your answer.

 

[Clete]

You can't die if you're immortal. That's what immortal means. The scriptures you gave only prove He was mortal, because He died, however He might have done so. What you're suggesting is that anyone who might commit suicide could be counted as immortal, because no one took their lives away from them.

This is both frivolous and important at the same time. We shouldn't have to debate word meanings, except where there are multiple meanings and we have to pick the right ("correct", not "opposite of left") meanings. But it is important if we aren't using the same dictionary.

What do YOU think "immortal" means, Gary? Be thorough in your answer.

He will not answer.

No need to let the facts get in the way of a pet doctrine!

 

[Derf]

He will not answer.

No need to let the facts get in the way of a pet doctrine!

I'm not even sure why it matters to him. There are plenty of people who struggle over what it meant for Jesus to become a man. You and I haven't always agreed on that, even.

 

[Clete]

I'm not even sure why it matters to him. There are plenty of people who struggle over what it meant for Jesus to become a man. You and I haven't always agreed on that, even.

That's true but we've never had any disagreement that was based solely on the completely obvious meaning of a single word like "mortal". That's a level of stubbornness that cannot be rationally explained. As you say, why would it matter to him? He doesn't deny that Jesus died and so what possible difference could it make to insist the He was immortal, except to have a contradiction to believe and call it piety to believe it.

 

[Gary K]

You can't die if you're immortal. That's what immortal means. The scriptures you gave only prove He was mortal, because He died, however He might have done so. What you're suggesting is that anyone who might commit suicide could be counted as immortal, because no one took their lives away from them.

This is both frivolous and important at the same time. We shouldn't have to debate word meanings, except where there are multiple meanings and we have to pick the right ("correct", not "opposite of left") meanings. But it is important if we aren't using the same dictionary.

What do YOU think "immortal" means, Gary? Be thorough in your answer.

Jesus and my heavenly Father.

 

[Derf]

That's true but we've never had any disagreement that was based solely on the completely obvious meaning of a single word like "mortal".

No, our disagreement was based solely on the completely obvious meaning of the single word "death", which is hardly anything like "mortal".

That's a level of stubbornness that cannot be rationally explained. As you say, why would it matter to him? He doesn't deny that Jesus died and so what possible difference could it make to insist the He was immortal, except to have a contradiction to believe and call it piety to believe it.

That's what it seems like, anyway.

 

[Derf]

Jesus and my heavenly Father.

Was Jesus immortal before He was crucified? Are you immortal?

 

[Gary K]

Was Jesus immortal before He was crucified? Are you immortal?

Yes and no. Jesus existed for an eternity before He became human. I am still mortal.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes and no. Jesus existed for an eternity before He became human. I am still mortal.

So you are conflating the TWO NATURES of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Many confused cultists do that.

 

[Derf]

Yes and no. Jesus existed for an eternity before He became human. I am still mortal.

So Jesus was immortal, then He became mortal, right? He laid aside some of His eternally-held characteristics to become flesh. Jesus then died, and rise again in immortality, something that will happen to us, too, if we believe in Him.

If we believe in Him, then we will also want to do as He wants us to do.

What kind of things dies our moral, immortal king want us to do? Moral things, of course.

 

[Right Divider]

So Jesus was immortal, then He became mortal, right?

No, He took upon Himself a SECOND nature.

He laid aside some of His eternally-held characteristics to become flesh.

No, God does not change some of His "eternally-held characteristics".
Jesus took on a SECOND nature as a human.

Jesus then died, and rise again in immortality, something that will happen to us, too, if we believe in Him.

True to a certain extent.

If we believe in Him, then we will also want to do as He wants us to do.

Sounds reasonable. What does He want us to do?

What kind of things dies our moral, immortal king want us to do? Moral things, of course.

 

[Gary K]

So Jesus was immortal, then He became mortal, right? He laid aside some of His eternally-held characteristics to become flesh. Jesus then died, and rise again in immortality, something that will happen to us, too, if we believe in Him.

If we believe in Him, then we will also want to do as He wants us to do.

What kind of things dies our moral, immortal king want us to do? Moral things, of course.

No. Righteous. A person can be moral and not be a Christian. Only the works we do through the indwelling Spirit are righteous.

Galatians 5: 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Only the fruit of the Spirit enables us to live according to the law of God as it violates no law.

 

[Derf]

No. Righteous. A person can be moral and not be a Christian.

'Some common synonyms of righteous are ethical, moral, noble, and virtuous.' Merriam-Webster

Only the works we do through the indwelling Spirit are righteous.

And moral.

Galatians 5: 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

All of which are immoral.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Only the fruit of the Spirit enables us to live according to the law of God as it violates no law.

Only walking in the spirit, instead of in the flesh, enables us to live moral and righteous lives.

 

[Derf]

No, He took upon Himself a SECOND nature.

No, God does not change some of His "eternally-held characteristics".
Jesus took on a SECOND nature as a human.

True to a certain extent.

Sounds reasonable. What does He want us to do?

How many times has He taken on a human nature ?

 

[Right Divider]

How many times has He taken on a human nature ?

Once

 

[Derf]

Once

And what is included in the human nature He took on?