ECT Our current covenant, that is, ministry

Interplanner

Well-known member
You cannot make it through 2 Cor 3-6 without the realizations:
1, that the new covenant is being administered to people NOW to save/bring justifying righteousness to the world
2, that it is a mission

The asinine part(s) of D'ism is that when it so stubbornly departs from number 1, it denies number 2 as well. I don't know any branch of the church out there that is so tone-deaf to the fact of the mission. In 2 Cor 3-6 or Rom 9-11, Paul never leaves the fact of the mission, and how it is to move forward, behind.

The last appeal he makes in 2 Cor 6 before a significant change of topic is: 'we urge you as God's fellow workers...' which forms a conclusion to the 3 chapters. This (Paul's and the 1st gen's) is the 'time of grace / the day of salvation...' fulfilled.

So there is actually the third realization:

3, it is the fulfilled Messianic age.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Evangelism, silly!

God was in Christ, reconciling the world's sin debt. Go tell 10 people today and forget your complicated, Judean-property based theology.
 

northwye

New member
It is true that the eugenics movement came out of the theory of evolution. Yet what religion emphasizes spiritual identity by human genetics? In the New Testament Paul in subtle ways taught that God no longer identifies his chosen people by their physical DNA, that is, by genetics.

Talmudic Judaism, however, is a religion that retains the Old Covenant doctrine of spiritual identity of the chosen people by their physical DNA, their genetics. In a sense then Christian Zionists are surrogates for Talmudic Judaism, though they acknowledge Christ to some extent. We have to wonder though, if their doctrines are so far away from the Gospel of Christ, in being surrogates for Talmudic Judaism, that their salvation is in danger because they are following another Gospel.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4.For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. " II Corinthians 11: 3-4

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7.Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8.But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9.As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. " Galatians 1: 6-9

Talmudic Judaism can be traced back to the doctrines of the Pharisees of Christ's time. The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia and the Jewish Encyclopedia say that Talmudic Judaism came out of the Pharisees.

The chosen people of God are those who are his elect, and are no longer defined by their physical genetics. This New Testament doctrine takes a great deal of wind out of the sails of the eugenics movement.

The late 19th and early 20th century eugenics movement came out of a rejection of the Biblical account of man's origins and the acceptance by intellectuals of the theory of Charles Darwin. We can therefore expect the eugenics movement to be in the spirit of anti-Christ.

And in its promotion of abortion the eugenics movement clearly became anti-Christ. I have looked more than once for articles or books on the Internet dealing with the influence of the eugenics movement upon the American medical profession. The influence is clearly there, but documenting it may be medically incorrect.

See: http://www.reproductive-revolution.com/sterilization.html

"On the basis of a review of editorials in New England Journal of Medicine and Journal of the American Medical Association from 1930 to 1945 it is difficult to accept the suggestion that the alliance between the medical profession and the eugenics movement in the United States was short-lived. Comparison of the histories of the eugenic sterilization campaigns in the United States and Nazi Germany reveals important similarities of motivation, intent, and strategy..."

Although the eugenics movement came out of Darwinism, it has been supported by Talmudic Judaism in its continuation of the Old Covenant doctrine that the Chosen People have that identity because of their physical genetics.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Evangelism, silly!

God was in Christ, reconciling the world's sin debt. Go tell 10 people today and forget your complicated, Judean-property based theology.

That is speaking about the ministry of reconciliation to preach the "word" of reconciliation. That is speaking about Christians having the ministry of the gospel, not a ministry of the new covenant:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament (diatheke); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life"
(2 Cor.3:6).​

When we look at the words describing the New Diatheke (the spirit giveth life) we can understand that the ministry in question is preaching the gospel. That is the ministry which Paul speaks of here:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God"
(Acts 20:24).​

John Calvin certainly understood that Paul was speaking of the ministry to preach the gospel, writing the following:

"'Not of the letter but of the spirit'...There is, however, no doubt, that by the term 'letter,' he means the Old Testament, as by the term 'spirit' he means the gospel; for, after having called himself a 'minister of the New Testament,' he immediately adds, by way of exposition, that he is a 'minister of the spirit,' and contrasts the letter with the spirit" [emphasis added] (John Calvin, Commentary on Corinthians - Volume 2, Christian Classics Ethereal Library).​

In the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary we read the following remarks on 2 Corinthians 3:6:

"spirit giveth life--The spirit of the Gospel when brought home to the heart by the Holy Spirit, gives new spiritual life to a man (Ro 6:4, 11)"
[emphasis added] (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, Commentary at 2 Corinthians 3:6).​

Therefore, we can understand that when Paul uses the word diatheke at 2 Corinthians 3:6 the meaning of that word is the Last Will and Testament of the Lord Jesus, the "good news" (gospel) of Christ.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
You cannot make it through 2 Cor 3-6 without the realizations:
1, that the new covenant is being administered to people NOW to save/bring justifying righteousness to the world
2, that it is a mission

The asinine part(s) of D'ism is that when it so stubbornly departs from number 1, it denies number 2 as well. I don't know any branch of the church out there that is so tone-deaf to the fact of the mission. In 2 Cor 3-6 or Rom 9-11, Paul never leaves the fact of the mission, and how it is to move forward, behind.

The last appeal he makes in 2 Cor 6 before a significant change of topic is: 'we urge you as God's fellow workers...' which forms a conclusion to the 3 chapters. This (Paul's and the 1st gen's) is the 'time of grace / the day of salvation...' fulfilled.

So there is actually the third realization:

3, it is the fulfilled Messianic age.

More humanism, rationalization, unbelief.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
You cannot make it through 2 Cor 3-6 without the realizations:
1, that the new covenant is being administered to people NOW to save/bring justifying righteousness to the world
2, that it is a mission

The asinine part(s) of D'ism is that when it so stubbornly departs from number 1, it denies number 2 as well. I don't know any branch of the church out there that is so tone-deaf to the fact of the mission. In 2 Cor 3-6 or Rom 9-11, Paul never leaves the fact of the mission, and how it is to move forward, behind.

The last appeal he makes in 2 Cor 6 before a significant change of topic is: 'we urge you as God's fellow workers...' which forms a conclusion to the 3 chapters. This (Paul's and the 1st gen's) is the 'time of grace / the day of salvation...' fulfilled.

So there is actually the third realization:

3, it is the fulfilled Messianic age.


Hi ASININE are those parts and those that try to LEAD from behind ARE always in the background of thelogy !!

Now here is your chance to explain , how any one today is saved by the NEW COVENANT ??

You can not explain how Paul was saved , SO HOW WERE YOU SAVED ??

dan p
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Actually, D'ism does a lot of mission work, but it is compensating for its unsubmissiveness to the mission as declared by the NT docs. It is completely separate from the natural change shown by the NT from Judaism into this age in Christ. D'ism will never let the mission now be seen as something planned all along; it will never say the mission is back there in Gen 12's promise about the Seed; it will always say 'blessing this people' means the race instead of the faith of the people, which was what God looked for and blessed.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
You cannot make it th

3, it is the fulfilled Messianic age.


Hi and you are nonsensical as 2 Cor 3:13 refutes that , as the ONLY thing being FULFILLED is that the Law of MOSES is BEING ABOLISHED by Christ in verse 14 along with Pentecostal theology , Water Baptism and TONGUES !!

Not even a good try !!

dan p
 

northwye

New member
The Messianic Age refers to the reign of Jesus Christ, which began at his Crucifixion. At this time he reigns within his elect, which is also his remnant, especially at the present time, and when he appears again the Messianic Age will be fulfilled or complete.

Dispensationalism focuses upon the multitude, either of the Old Covenant or of the New Covenant. "From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

Christian Zionism does not deal with the remnant as a small number who continue to be faithful to Christ in a time of apostasy, except the Christian Zionists do have their own version of the remnant called the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14. They link that remnant to their end time scenario saying that God will turn back to the physical descendants of Abraham to deal with them again. So, the 144,000 in Christian Zionism are all of the physical bloodline.

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law." I Corinthians 15: 51-56
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The Messianic Age refers to the reign of Jesus Christ, which began at his Crucifixion. At this time he reigns within his elect, which is also his remnant, especially at the present time, and when he appears again the Messianic Age will be fulfilled or complete.

Dispensationalism focuses upon the multitude, either of the Old Covenant or of the New Covenant. "From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

Christian Zionism does not deal with the remnant as a small number who continue to be faithful to Christ in a time of apostasy, except the Christian Zionists do have their own version of the remnant called the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14. They link that remnant to their end time scenario saying that God will turn back to the physical descendants of Abraham to deal with them again. So, the 144,000 in Christian Zionism are all of the physical bloodline.

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law." I Corinthians 15: 51-56





Do the CZs allow themselves a bit of symbolism here--that there will be more than 144K?
 

northwye

New member
In I Peter 2: 5 Peter calls "ye" a holy priesthood, and in I Peter 2: 9 he refers to "ye" as a royal priesthood. I think this is where the Baptists got their older doctrine of the priesthood of the believer.

Sue Patterson has an online book called "The 144,000 and the Multitude" - https://soundoctrinedotorg.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/the-144000-and-the-multitiude.pdf

Sue thought in about 2008 to 2010 that the 144,000 as the end time remnant was beginning to be assembled. I have not seen any utterance from her recently. She owns and runs a Nursery and Garden Center in Cascade, Idaho.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
In I Peter 2: 5 Peter calls "ye" a holy priesthood, and in I Peter 2: 9 he refers to "ye" as a royal priesthood. I think this is where the Baptists got their older doctrine of the priesthood of the believer.

Sue Patterson has an online book called "The 144,000 and the Multitude" - https://soundoctrinedotorg.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/the-144000-and-the-multitiude.pdf

Sue thought in about 2008 to 2010 that the 144,000 as the end time remnant was beginning to be assembled. I have not seen any utterance from her recently. She owns and runs a Nursery and Garden Center in Cascade, Idaho.

Me thinks the 144000 are the living overcomers before the resurrection during the 3.5 years.

None else will be in the first resurrection from among the living ones, but they will be joined by the inclusion of all overcomers from all ages at the resurrection which makes up the completed new Jerusalem of Rev.ch 21.

Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

I took a quick look at the book.

The great multitude are the children promised to Abraham and they are mortal believes for the millennium. Isaiah ch 49.



LA
 

northwye

New member
"Me thinks the 144000 are the living overcomers before the resurrection during the 3.5 years."

What 3,5 years? Be careful about using the "letter" of scripture, especially in prophecy involving time.

Sue thought that the second appearing of Christ involves his appearing within his remnant before he appears as predicted in I Corinthians 15.

And the multitude is all those who are not the remnant. In Romans 11, for example, the remnant of Old Covenant Israel who accepted Christ are seen in Romans 11: 1-5, and the multitude who rejected Christ are in Romans 11: 17-20, who were broken off.
 

Danoh

New member
In I Peter 2: 5 Peter calls "ye" a holy priesthood, and in I Peter 2: 9 he refers to "ye" as a royal priesthood. I think this is where the Baptists got their older doctrine of the priesthood of the believer.

Sue Patterson has an online book called "The 144,000 and the Multitude" - https://soundoctrinedotorg.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/the-144000-and-the-multitiude.pdf

Sue thought in about 2008 to 2010 that the 144,000 as the end time remnant was beginning to be assembled. I have not seen any utterance from her recently. She owns and runs a Nursery and Garden Center in Cascade, Idaho.

Right after citing Revelelation 7:1-4, the author of that book writes:

There are 12,000 of each of the twelve tribes that are sealed. How each one is placed in each one of these tribes is a mystery. It may have something to do with the characteristics of each
of the tribes, or an entirely different reason for placement within each of these tribes that is, as yet, unclear. But, really what matters, is not what tribe one may be in, but that you are counted in the tribes that are sealed.

Two things are of note here. First, we see that the original tribe of Dan is replaced with the tribe of Manasseh.

This is an interesting comparison to the twelve apostles and the removal of
Judas who was then replaced with Paul by the Lord.

I've noted the following before - how that different understandings of a thing between by people, is always the result of each individuals different approach to studying a thing out.

In this, it is ever fascinating (to me at least) that what even a total stranger asserts, can be looked at forensically, easily allowing one to trace said stranger's conclusions and or assertions, back to where said stranger had been looking at things from to begin with, that resulted in their conclusions.

(This same principle can be applied to the Writer/writers of Scripture Him/them selves).

In the above by the author you cited, northwye, it is obvious from Scripture, that it's author's assertions are not only the result of her guessing at a thing, or conjecture on her part; resulting from the unawareness of even a simple study principle like syllogism (as in the awareness within syllogism that there are things that differ between general and specific terms), but conclusions allowed by her anyway (or before having solved first, for her "it may have something to do with...").

And Scripture is no place for one to be relying on "well maybe this" or "perhaps that..." and or "I wonder if this is what the Spirit is leading/wanting me to see here..."

All that is, is Scholastic Mysticism (a hybrid of an over reliance on the assertions of others - thus, the Scholasticism), together with one's own notions, and one's own superstitions about how "the Spirit leads one unto all truth..." (the Mysticism aspect).

Her conclusions in the above are obviously based on these kinds of failures on her part.

For again, one's assertions tend to act as a sort of a fly on the wall another can look to, to look back from said wall, to where such an individual had been looking at things from, to begin with.

In her above assertion that Paul replaced Judas, for example, her failed method is obvious once more.

In contrast to the obvious lack of evidence in her writing, that a simple principle like the following one, had been one of her study principles...

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" -1 Thessalonians 5:21.

A simple principle, which, of course; does not stand alone.

In that even in that simple passage, every one of it's words has to first be both properly and thoroughly studied out in depth, as to their intended sense, both individually, and as to their part in the whole within that passage.

Which is also a part of what said passage itself is talking about - of the need to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

Rom. 5:8

Acts 17:11,12
 

northwye

New member
The principle of the remnant can be forgotten when Sue Patterson's ideas on how people who are not of the physical bloodline from Abraham fit into the tribes of Israel in the era of the New Covenant becomes the focus and topic of argument.

There are statements in scripture on the qualifications for being in the remnant. "The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid." Zephhaniah 3: 13

"And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." Revelation 14: 5 Guile is from δολος, Strong's Greek: 1388, dolos, -- "a bait, fig. craft, deceit." The 144,000 are said to be without deception. And if we now live close to the last days Christ spoke about in John 6 we know that we now live in a time of great deception. Yet the 144,000 as a remnant is said not to be deceptive.

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." Revelation 14: 4

The literalists insist that the 144,000, who for them are all of the Old Covenant Israel tribes, though Paul implies old Covenant Israel no longer exists in the New Covenant, but the elect are selected by their faith, are nevertheless all of the physical bloodline.

The same literalism insists that by virgins John means the 144,000 have never had sex, and since the verse says they are not defiled with women. then all the 144,000 must be men with no women among that group. But no, this is metaphoric. You could look at Revelation 17: 1-6, for another metaphoric use of women in prophecy.

The metaphoric meaning then of Revelation 14: 4 is that a qualification of being in the remnant, the 144,000, is not be be "defiled" by religion, as it is seen in Revelation 17: 1-6. The 144,000 are not in the false doctrines taught in churches, though most likely many of them were at one time.
 
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