Theology Club: Open Theism Destroys Arminianism??

[Jerry Shugart]

Sure there is.

So you think that the words of Paul when he speaks of "things which are not seen" are things which we can actually see with our eyes!

Christ resurrection was not invisible

No one said that it is invisible. However, I did not see it with my eyes. Did you?

Can't a man agree with one thing without knowing everything?

The first thing we have to agree with Him on is that we are sinners and need to repent.

OK, so all those who understand that they are sinners are brought into obedience and belief in the truth through the Holy Spirit?

I know people who admit that they are sinners and they reject the truth. In fact, someone who was very close to me admitted that he was a sinner but he died in a state of unbelief. How do you explain that?

What I think you're saying is that we have to be saved before we can be saved, is that correct?

No, that is not right. I will go step by step in explaining what I said. Let us look at the two verses again:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

Notice that in the second quoted verse of these two the phrase "through sanctification of the Spirit" is tied to "salvation" so common sense dictates that the phrase has the same meaning in both verses which are speaking of being chosen or elected.​

Can you understand that? Do you agree with that? If your answer is "no" then tell me exactly what I said that in error. Now to continue, I said:

In both of these verses the Greek word translated "through" means "of the instrument or means by or with which anything is accomplished...by means of, by (through)" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).​

Do you agree with that? If not, why not? Next I said this:

Therefore, we can understand that being chosen or elected to salvation is through the instrumentality of the Spirit when He separates a person to God. That happens when a person is baptized into the Body of Christ by one Spirit:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Do you agree with that? If not, why not? I finished by saying this:

Since being saved and being baptized into the Body of Christ is in regard to "individual" salvation the we can know that when this verse speaks of election the reference is to "individual" salvation:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

So a person is elected or chosen to "individual" salvation according to the "foreknowledge" of God.​

Do you agree with this? if not, why not?

Thanks!

 

[themuzicman]

There is nothing found in the context that even hints that Paul was the active agent.

Of course the active agent is the LORD. Only the LORD can ordain people to eternal life.

Who is speaking boldly in this passage?

In fact, it is ridiculous to even entertain the idea that Paul could "command" the Gentiles to eternal life.

Besides that, I see no evidence that the Greek word translated "ordained" at Acts 13:48 means "commanded." Who is your authority about that?

Thanks!

Pick any modern Greek lexicon.

τάσσω
pf. inf. τεταχέναι; pf. pass. τέταγμαι, 3 sg. τέτακται appoint, designate, set aside; command, order, direct; institute (of governmental authority); devote (to service); midd. equivalent to act. fix, set (ACT.28:23); tell, direct (MAT.28:16)

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

My thoughts are first that time is nothing more than a way to measure and understand what has happened, what is happening and what will happen. The happenings or actions being a series of physical and spiritual cause and effects.

If God is in the present and yet can see the future and allows free will and His purposes to prevail. It is quite possible that He sees an infinite number of dominoes' paths that He works in. To bring His desire for us without forcing us. This allows for the mind of God so far beyond what we can imagine. This allows for freewill and God's interjection whenever He sees fit. Such as Christ's revelation and Paul's conversion and in response to prayers.

An ever changing future seen but not determined.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Pick any modern Greek lexicon.

I looked at ten Greek-English Lexicons and I only found one which matched the definition which you gave for the Greek word tassō. Besides that, I looked at 20 different translations of Acts 13:28 and not even one of them translated the Greek word as "commanded" at Acts 13:48.

In fact, I could not even find one instance in the Bible where the Greek word is translated "command."

In the context of the verse we are discussing we can see that the word "commanded" is used and it is translated from another Greek word:

"For so hath the Lord commanded (entellō) us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Gen.13:47-48).​

Can you really not understand just how silly your idea is? According to you Paul "commanded" the Gentiles to eternal life and every single one of them so commanded believed!

As if it is actually possible to command a person to believe! I can just hear Paul now: Now I command all of you Gentiles to believe the gospel and if you don't then I will put you in the stockades!

You seem unaware that what Paul did was to preach the gospel and some believed it and others did not. Those who believed received eternal life and others did not. You can't command someone to believe anything.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

An ever changing future seen but not determined.

Yes, seen and not pre-determined. This describes that idea perfectly:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

 

[themuzicman]

I looked at ten Greek-English Lexicons and I only found one which matched the definition which you gave for the Greek word tassō. Besides that, I looked at 20 different translations of Acts 13:28 and not even one of them translated the Greek word as "commanded" at Acts 13:48.

The translation of Acts 13:48 isn't an easy one. That's why it isn't the kind if verse you should be basing systematic theology upon.

In fact, I could not even find one instance in the Bible where the Greek word is translated "command."

And that's normal for a word that is infrequently used. You can pick whichever gloss fits your fancy, but that doesn't change the fact that Paul is the active agent in this passage. I chose "command" because it fit the exegesis.

So, pick whichever works for you, but keep in mind that it is Paul who is doing it.

In the context of the verse we are discussing we can see that the word "commanded" is used and it is translated from another Greek word:

"For so hath the Lord commanded (entellō) us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Gen.13:47-48).​

There are multiple words that have the connotation of "command." Same with "ordain." Greek to English translation rarely has a 1:1 matching of words.

Can you really not understand just how silly your idea is? According to you Paul "commanded" the Gentiles to eternal life and every single one of them so commanded believed!

You can call the bible silly if you want. But your emotional appeals don't change the exegetical facts.

And it only sounds silly to you because you want it to say something else, in spite of what exegesis tells us.

As if it is actually possible to command a person to believe! I can just hear Paul now: Now I command all of you Gentiles to believe the gospel and if you don't then I will put you in the stockades!

Now you're just making up straw men.

Maybe you're just not used to the preaching of the gospel that hasn't been watered down by Calvinists who know it doesn't really matter if anyone preaches or not.

You seem unaware that what Paul did was to preach the gospel and some believed it and others did not. Those who believed received eternal life and others did not. You can't command someone to believe anything.

And now you're just making things up. Nothing in the context of Acts 13:48 says that only some of the Gentiles believed.

Did Paul have 100% success all of the time? No.

Did Paul have 100% success (among the Gentiles) this time? Apparently so.

You see, arguing from this one narrative example to claim that this must be how it always happens is a grievous theological error.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Yes, seen and not pre-determined. This describes that idea perfectly:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

With free will and an unlimited God what could prohibit God from seeing an infinite number of possible futures?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

With free will and an unlimited God what could prohibit God from seeing an infinite number of possible futures?

In a figurative sense He is looking down from His timeless existence seeing things as they actually happen, all at one glance.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

In a figurative sense He is looking down from His timeless existence seeing things as they actually happen, all at one glance.

I would say that is a possibility.

His timelessness could also be defined as having no beginning or end. But being in the present. As His Spirit is here with us, interacting witb us in what is happening, but also outside of what is happening in the universe as He sits on His throne in the heavenly realm. Seeing what may happen dependent upon what He chooses to let happen (free will) and upon what He chooses to interject in.

The open view is quashed if what will happen has already somehow happened.

This leads me to believe freedom leaves the possibilities of the future endless as far as what He allows. But He has shown His patience has limits.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The open view is quashed if what will happen has already somehow happened.

Not for those who live in time. Since the LORD is seeing everything happening at one glance then there is nothing in the universe which interferes with the choices which a man makes. And since the LORD wants all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved He certainly would not interfere in anyway which would hamper what he wants.

 

[Derf]

My thoughts are first that time is nothing more than a way to measure and understand what has happened, what is happening and what will happen. The happenings or actions being a series of physical and spiritual cause and effects.

If God is in the present and yet can see the future and allows free will and His purposes to prevail. It is quite possible that He sees an infinite number of dominoes' paths that He works in. To bring His desire for us without forcing us. This allows for the mind of God so far beyond what we can imagine. This allows for freewill and God's interjection whenever He sees fit. Such as Christ's revelation and Paul's conversion and in response to prayers.

An ever changing future seen but not determined.

Interesting thoughts, Jamie. Thanks for the inputs. Do you think He actually "sees" what might be (one of those paths), and then changes it to make sure His will is accomplished? When I think of the word "see", I tend to think of it as observing something outside of myself, but if those things are only possibilities (infinite domino paths), then God wouldn't be observing something outside Himself, but imagining the consequences, since the consequences aren't actualized yet. If they are actualized in the future, and then he changes them, is He then seeing something before His change that doesn't exist (since it is never actualized due to His changes)? If He is seeing something that doesn't exist, He's not really observing something outside Himself, is He? Therefore the future would then only in His mind until he selects the one He wants to actualize.

If He is imagining all the possibilities, but doesn't select any until someone makes a decision, then I think you are advocating for Open Theism. (see my descriptions here and here)

Instead, if He is selecting from infinite possibilities, and only selects the one He wants to actualize, that would certainly mean he is in complete control of everything. Does that also mean he is then responsible for all that happens, since He allows nothing else to happen?

This appears to be straight up Calvinism. Once all other possibilities are eliminated, and since they were never actualized.

Also, if God isn't "seeing" the future possibilities, but only imagining them, does that mean He actually deliberates about which one to choose, even if only for a fraction of a second?

Finally, if God figures out all these possibilities before hand and already has selected the one path and set it up to occur from the very beginning, is He doing anything right now? or just sitting back and watching it unfold. If He's actually needing to be doing something, to make sure the outcome is what he desired, and He has already selected the particular domino path, does that make Him bound to His work--since He never changes His mind, but He has to do His part (like parting the Red sea, for instance, at the precise time that Egypt was getting close), isn't He now at the mercy of His own creation?

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Not for those who live in time. Since the LORD is seeing everything happening at one glance then there is nothing in the universe which interferes with the choices which a man makes. And since the LORD wants all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved He certainly would not interfere in anyway which would hamper what he wants.

As I understand the open view; it is an unsettled future, undetermined and has not happened as the choices to settle it have not been made. Making it impossible for see the future witb certainty unless there are certain things in the future that are determined, which obviosly there are (Jesus' return); but also some things undetermined such as who will choose Him. But to give credit to an intellect beyond comprehension... a foreknowledge...
If you know someone well you know with some certainty how they will act in situations as well as how you can intervene to bring about the best possible reaction. You are persuading. We know things could go one way or another depending upon their choice. And when they make that choice we than react in the way that we think will bring about the best future outcome. In this way with an incomprehensible mind God could have an infinite number of paths intertwined in His knowledge that has not yet happened and the certainty of which paths will be chosen has not been determined. This allows for God's forknowledge and free will and God's persuasion/conviction to bring us in line witb Him and intervention when He chooses, such as Angelic rescue of Peter and John. Persuading is not forcing.
Agreed God is outside of time. Time is in this realm. God is the initiated physical and spiritual cause of time as we know it, the creator. He is outside watching the show but also interacting/ intervening. He is so much bigger than the created but yet made Himself small to enter. In our realm we use "time"to record what is happening because we have a beginning and an end. With God having no beginning or end; time or what is happening or happened or going to happen won't be thought of in the same way, but it won't preclude happenings from going on. Time being a measurement of the finite. Where in infinite eternity no measurement possible.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Interesting thoughts, Jamie. Thanks for the inputs. Do you think He actually "sees" what might be (one of those paths), and then changes it to make sure His will is accomplished? When I think of the word "see", I tend to think of it as observing something outside of myself, but if those things are only possibilities (infinite domino paths), then God wouldn't be observing something outside Himself, but imagining the consequences, since the consequences aren't actualized yet. If they are actualized in the future, and then he changes them, is He then seeing something before His change that doesn't exist (since it is never actualized due to His changes)? If He is seeing something that doesn't exist, He's not really observing something outside Himself, is He? Therefore the future would then only in His mind until he selects the one He wants to actualize.

If He is imagining all the possibilities, but doesn't select any until someone makes a decision, then I think you are advocating for Open Theism. (see my descriptions here and here)

Instead, if He is selecting from infinite possibilities, and only selects the one He wants to actualize, that would certainly mean he is in complete control of everything. Does that also mean he is then responsible for all that happens, since He allows nothing else to happen?

This appears to be straight up Calvinism. Once all other possibilities are eliminated, and since they were never actualized.

Also, if God isn't "seeing" the future possibilities, but only imagining them, does that mean He actually deliberates about which one to choose, even if only for a fraction of a second?

Finally, if God figures out all these possibilities before hand and already has selected the one path and set it up to occur from the very beginning, is He doing anything right now? or just sitting back and watching it unfold. If He's actually needing to be doing something, to make sure the outcome is what he desired, and He has already selected the particular domino path, does that make Him bound to His work--since He never changes His mind, but He has to do His part (like parting the Red sea, for instance, at the precise time that Egypt was getting close), isn't He now at the mercy of His own creation?

Foreknowledge of possible consequences would describe the point better.

I am advocating open theism. That life is a fluid situation with Gods choices/judgements/persuasions and direct intervention (Christ/Angelic intervention) melding together with our free will choices in a tapestry with some certain outcomes (Jesus' return) and some uncertain ones (who will trust Christ).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Agreed God is outside of time.

I can see that you have great insight!

This allows for God's forknowledge and free will and God's persuasion/conviction to bring us in line witb Him and intervention when He chooses, such as Angelic rescue of Peter and John. Persuading is not forcing.

Since the LORD wants all men to come to the knowledge of Him and be saved then would He not bring every single man in line with Him? I agree that He has the power to do that but does he do it?

What do you think?

Thanks!

 

[Derf]

So you think that the words of Paul when he speaks of "things which are not seen" are things which we can actually see with our eyes!

No, but things we will experience--things we are promised, and we can trust that God will fulfill His promises.

OK, so all those who understand that they are sinners are brought into obedience and belief in the truth through the Holy Spirit?

I know people who admit that they are sinners and they reject the truth. In fact, someone who was very close to me admitted that he was a sinner but he died in a state of unbelief. How do you explain that?

He didn't repent and believe. Why is that a big mystery?

No, that is not right. I will go step by step in explaining what I said. Let us look at the two verses again:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

Notice that in the second quoted verse of these two the phrase "through sanctification of the Spirit" is tied to "salvation" so common sense dictates that the phrase has the same meaning in both verses which are speaking of being chosen or elected.​

Can you understand that? Do you agree with that? If your answer is "no" then tell me exactly what I said that in error.

I don't have any problem with the two verses talking about the same thing.

Now to continue, I said:

In both of these verses the Greek word translated "through" means "of the instrument or means by or with which anything is accomplished...by means of, by (through)" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).​

Do you agree with that? If not, why not?

Sanctification is also tied to "belief in the truth" and obedience. Do you think there is anyone that God wants to disregard the truth or to disobey? Aren't we all elected to obedience and elected to believe God when He tells us something?

Who do you think is in the other category, that God wants them to disobey and reject the truth? And if God WANTS them to disobey, are they really disobeying? or or they obeying, since God wants them to do it.

If you reject the idea that God is double-minded, then you must see that God wants everyone to come to repentance. But if it requires sanctification prior to justification, and God picks who He is going to sanctify based on some hidden criterion known only to Him (or no criterion at all), and He doesn't sanctify everyone in that way, He must not really want everyone to come to repentance. Do you really think that?

Next I said this:

Therefore, we can understand that being chosen or elected to salvation is through the instrumentality of the Spirit when He separates a person to God.

That happens when a person is baptized into the Body of Christ by one Spirit:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Do you agree with that? If not, why not?

Does it matter when the baptism occurs if it was decided ahead of time, without the choice of the one that "believes"?

I finished by saying this:

Since being saved and being baptized into the Body of Christ is in regard to "individual" salvation the we can know that when this verse speaks of election the reference is to "individual" salvation:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

So a person is elected or chosen to "individual" salvation according to the "foreknowledge" of God.​

Do you agree with this? if not, why not?

Thanks!

If God foreknew that He was going to send His son to die, that would allow dead men to live again, to allow sinners to obey again, to allow those that disbelieve to believe once more, then it doesn't have to individual foreknowledge, even if the sanctification, belief, and salvation is individual.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Derf,

I asked you:

So you think that the words of Paul when he speaks of "things which are not seen" are things which we can actually see with our eyes!​

To this you answered:

No, but things we will experience--things we are promised, and we can trust that God will fulfill His promises.

With that in mind then you should be able to understand that the body worn by the Lord Jesus now in heaven is not a "physical" body, as you imagined. The Lord Jesus is now in heaven which is described as eternity (Isa.57:15). In our natural bodies we are not equipped to see things which are eternal in nature:

"For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18. While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor.4:16-18).​

In the very next verse Paul makes it plain that the heavenly body which we will put on is "eternal" in nature:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor.5:1).

Since we will put on bodies like the Lord Jesus' glorious body we can know that His body now is a spiritual, heavenly body which is described as being "eternal."

I don't have any problem with the two verses talking about the same thing.

Since the first passage is in regard to "salvation" then we know that the passage which follows is also in regard to "salvation":

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

Therefore, when Peter talks about people being chosen or elected through the LORD's foreknowledge he is speaking about "individual" salvation. And we do not that salvation is in regard to "individuals":

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

Now back to my original argument.

As creatures we are constrained by time. We cannot even know if someone will be alive tomorrow, much less know who will believe and be saved sometime in the future. On the other hand, the LORD is not constrained by time because He knows who in the future will believe and be saved and who will not believe.

Therfore, the LORD exists outside of time.

 

[themuzicman]

The Lord Jesus is now in heaven which is described as eternity (Isa.57:15). In our natural bodies we are not equipped to see things which are eternal in nature:

"For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18. While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor.4:16-18).​

In the very next verse Paul makes it plain that the heavenly body which we will put on is "eternal" in nature:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor.5:1).​

I know that it will not be a body which can be seen so that rules out the idea of that body being "physical."

This is gnosticism. Jesus Christ was resurrected into the body that he was buried in. That was the whole point of showing Thomas his wounds. IF we are not resurrected like Christ was resurrected, then our hope is in vain.

The "Outward man" is not the physical body. It's the sinful nature.

You've fallen into heresy.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is gnosticism. Jesus Christ was resurrected into the body that he was buried in. That was the whole point of showing Thomas his wounds. IF we are not resurrected like Christ was resurrected, then our hope is in vain.

What about these people who are with the Lord now?:

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:13-17).​

Those who are said to be asleep in Jesus are those who are dead physically and in heaven with the Lord. When the Lord descends from heaven then those who are physically dead will put on heavenly bodies just like that of the Lord Jesus (Phil.3:21-22). Since their physical bodies are in the grave and have rotted away those bodies have nothing to do with them putting on new, heavenly, spiritual bodies:

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption...It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body...And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:42-44,49-50).​

Here Paul describes the various bodies and notice that he uses the phrase "clothed on" to describe our relationship to the two types of bodies:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor.5:1-4).​

When we will be with the Lord in heaven after we die physically we will be unclothed or naked, not having a body. That is in regard to the "inner" man of whom Paul refers at another place. Now we are clothed upon with a natural body which is described as being earthly. Then when we are dead physically and with the Lord in heaven then we will be with Him when He descends from heaven and then we will be clothed upon with a heavenly, spiritual body.

 

[themuzicman]

What about these people who are with the Lord now?:

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:13-17).​

Those who are said to be asleep in Jesus are those who are dead physically and in heaven with the Lord. When the Lord descends from heaven then those who are physically dead will put on heavenly bodies just like that of the Lord Jesus (Phil.3:21-22). Since their physical bodies are in the grave and have rotted away those bodies have nothing to do with them putting on new, heavenly, spiritual bodies:

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption...It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body...And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:42-44,49-50).​

Here Paul describes the various bodies and notice that he uses the phrase "clothed on" to describe our relationship to the two types of bodies:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor.5:1-4).​

When we will be with the Lord in heaven after we die physically we will be unclothed or naked, not having a body. That is in regard to the "inner" man of whom Paul refers at another place. Now we are clothed upon with a natural body which is described as being earthly. Then when we are dead physically and with the Lord in heaven then we will be with Him when He descends from heaven and then we will be clothed upon with a heavenly, spiritual body.

(1) You've confused the preresurrection state of those who have died in Christ from 2 Cor 5 with the post-resurrection state of our eternal bodies.

(2) 1 Cor 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

We are to be resurrected as Christ was: In this same physical body that we are buried in. If you change the resurrection, then there is no hope.

Thus, the term "spiritual body" doesn't refer to the material of the body, but rather its moral condition. It is without sin, incorruptible. That's what the rest of the passage ls telling us.

Further, if our physical bodies aren't a reflection of creation, then creation wasn't really good.

So, in spite of your arguments, you've fallen into the heresy of gnosticism.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You've confused the preresurrection state of those who have died in Christ from 2 Cor 5 with the post-resurrection state of our eternal bodies.

Then tell me what Paul is referring to at 2 Corinthians 5:1-4 when he speaks of men being "found naked" and being "unclothed"?

1 Cor 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Yes, He was raised from the dead. No one denies that. And we will too. Only we will be raised from the dead in heavenly, spiritual bodies.

We are to be resurrected as Christ was: In this same physical body that we are buried in. If you change the resurrection, then there is no hope.

The Greek word translated "resurrection" means "a raising from the dead...that of Christ" (Thayer's Greek -English Lexicon).

Since the Lord was on the earth when He died then He was brought back to life in an earthly body. The bodies which we will be clothed upon will be bodies which will be adaptable to the environment in which we exist.

Since the Lord Jesus will be wearing a heavenly, spiritual body when the saints meet Him in the air and put on bodies like His we too will have heavenly, spiritual bodies.

Thus, the term "spiritual body" doesn't refer to the material of the body, but rather its moral condition. It is without sin, incorruptible. That's what the rest of the passage ls telling us.

The body which we will put on is described as a heavenly, "eternal" body (2 Cor.5:1). And in the body which we now wear we are not equipped to see things which are "eternal" (2 Cor.4:18). Therefore, the heavenly, spiritual bodies which we will be clothed upon will not be able to be seen by human eyes. After all, no one can enter the heavenly kingdom in flesh and blood bodies (1 Cor.15:50).