One on One: Can a Christin sin? Sozo and Knight discuss.
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
- Status
Yes.Sozo said:
The following post was something I posted in another thread but I thought I would re-post it here because it highlights the fundamental error that Sozo has made which in turn leads to why he has built his entire "Christians cannot sin" on a faulty premise.
Sozo.... as per your signature....
John: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." - 1 John 3:9
You do realize that verse means exactly what it says right??? The problem is you fail to distinguish who the audience was. 1 John is written to those in the circumcision and if they sinned they were not "in Him" any longer and had to once again seek forgiveness. (that isn't the case for the Body)
Back up a chapter or two.....
1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Is that you Sozo????
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Is that you Sozo???
1John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
Is that you Sozo???
1John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
"My little children"??? Sozo, the audience is John's converts, John's "little children" who were under the Law (not grace like we are). Sozo all of the above is the context for 1 John 3:9, so if you are going to appeal to 1 John you better take the whole enchilada!
1John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Is that you Sozo??? Do you keep the Law?
So now we get to.....
1John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Which is followed by....
1John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
The Law Sozo!!! The Law!!!
1John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 John is all about the Law! We (the Body) are not under the law. You are reading the wrong mail and therefore you have confused a simple gospel message and made it a difficult one by mashing together the Law and grace.
1John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
Does the Body have to "keep the commandments"???
1John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
Sozo... what is a "sin not leading to death"?
1John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
1John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
Ya see Sozo? They weren't sealed - but we are!!!
Failing to rightly divide the truth causes all sorts of wackiness and this is yet one more example.
John: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." - 1 John 3:9
You do realize that verse means exactly what it says right??? The problem is you fail to distinguish who the audience was. 1 John is written to those in the circumcision and if they sinned they were not "in Him" any longer and had to once again seek forgiveness. (that isn't the case for the Body)
Back up a chapter or two.....
1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Is that you Sozo????
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Is that you Sozo???
1John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
Is that you Sozo???
1John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
"My little children"??? Sozo, the audience is John's converts, John's "little children" who were under the Law (not grace like we are). Sozo all of the above is the context for 1 John 3:9, so if you are going to appeal to 1 John you better take the whole enchilada!
1John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Is that you Sozo??? Do you keep the Law?
So now we get to.....
1John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Which is followed by....
1John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
The Law Sozo!!! The Law!!!
1John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 John is all about the Law! We (the Body) are not under the law. You are reading the wrong mail and therefore you have confused a simple gospel message and made it a difficult one by mashing together the Law and grace.
1John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
Does the Body have to "keep the commandments"???
1John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
Sozo... what is a "sin not leading to death"?
1John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
1John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
Ya see Sozo? They weren't sealed - but we are!!!
Failing to rightly divide the truth causes all sorts of wackiness and this is yet one more example.
Notice the striking difference between my position and Sozos:
Lets start with.....
But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. - 1Corinthians 8:12
Lets look at....
1John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
My position: The verse means exactly what it says. Those under the law could not sin and remain in good standing with God, they needed to confess their sin (1John 1:9) and seek forgiveness (that doesn't apply to us under grace).
Sozo's position: The verse is actually a pointer to a theological position about being in the Spirit and not in the flesh that we must reference in Paul's writings therefore a Christian cannot sin (even though Paul himself states otherwise).
One more...
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. 9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
Lets start with.....
But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. - 1Corinthians 8:12
My position: Who am I to argue with Paul's use of the word sin??? The verse means exactly what it says.
Sozos position: "I do not have a sufficient response to the above verse."
Sozos position: "I do not have a sufficient response to the above verse."
Lets look at....
1John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
My position: The verse means exactly what it says. Those under the law could not sin and remain in good standing with God, they needed to confess their sin (1John 1:9) and seek forgiveness (that doesn't apply to us under grace).
Sozo's position: The verse is actually a pointer to a theological position about being in the Spirit and not in the flesh that we must reference in Paul's writings therefore a Christian cannot sin (even though Paul himself states otherwise).
One more...
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. 9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
My position: The verse means exactly what it says. A divisive Christian is sinning!
Sozo's position: The "divisive" man is not a Christian. :freak:
Sozo's position: The "divisive" man is not a Christian. :freak:
1Timothy 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. 20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
Sozo, most theologians and pastors and preachers and Bible commentators refer to the "those" in 1st Timothy 5:20 as specifically elders who are failing in their responsibilities.
I tend to agree with that, and I certainly believe that the "those" is clearly in regard to believers don't you?
Therefore the "those who are sinning" is in regard to Christians (more specifically elders). Do you reject that?
Sozo... 1 Timothy 5:17 is a verse you haven't addressed at all yet. (see my last post) 
Oh.... Sozo..... :sozo:
So.... I take it you are not going to respond to 1 Timothy 5:17?
Do you want me to close this One on One?
Do you want me to close this One on One?
Sozo.....?
Cough.... hack... ahem.
10 days and counting.
Sozo
New member
I don't know why Paul used those terms, other than relating it to what was counted as sin under the Law.
However, because of your understanding of the reasons YOU think he said them, rejects the other 99% of his writings.
I've seen Open Theists & The Plot proponants wiggle their way through biblical evidence that contradicts some of what they teach, but this site is not run by their critics.
However, because of your understanding of the reasons YOU think he said them, rejects the other 99% of his writings.
I've seen Open Theists & The Plot proponants wiggle their way through biblical evidence that contradicts some of what they teach, but this site is not run by their critics.
No, actually my view doesn't reject ANY of Pauls' writings!Sozo said:
It's your own misunderstanding of the word sin that causes your unnecessary confusion.
You only acknowledge the usage of the word sin in ONLY ONE WAY and reject that it can be used simply to describe wrong behavior.
Nobody is wiggling except you.
Paul meant exactly what he said in all cases.
And thus ends a very enlightening One on One.
- Status