Theology Club: Numbers 14:11- 20--the power of petition before God.

[Lighthouse]

Because we are doing what God asks us to do, praying for others. We are showing we trust His judgment instead of our own, we are in felllowship/communication with Him.

:bang:

God would not ask us to do something such as pray for specific outcomes, or change, if everything was settled; God is not futile and He would not ask us to act futilely.

Do you believe that every non believer we pray for to get saved, will just because we ask? Do they no longer have free will?

What?! Of course not! The reason I pray for such is because I hope it will happen; however, if it were already settled that they would not then it would be pointless for me to pray for it.

And if it were settled that they would then my prayer would make no difference; it would be vain babbling.

The way you are coming across, unless we know that person will be saved, there is no need to pray to them - in my view, since we do not know who is who, we should be praying anyway.

Try reading my post again.

Because some things are conditional, like Nineveh repenting. Just because i believe God can see the future, its still based on our choices.

Can the outcome be any different than what God sees?

And if God can see the future then how is anything conditional? What would the conditions be if God could see the future, thus making the future settled?

Then you need to explain to me HOW we cannot choose anything if He already knows what our choice will be. I believe He knows the future - because He knows each scenerio, if we do x, then this happens, based on conditional promises of God.

How soon does He know the future? How long before the event take place?

And if God knows we will do A can we choose to do B?

Some promises are conditional, some unconditional.

Conditional on what? What are the conditions? And how can it be conditional if God already knows what will happen?

How can God say, "If this, then that," if He already knows "this" won't happen?

Where are we commanded to pray at all?

Seriously?

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
-Matthew 5:43-45

Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.”
-Matthew 9:37-38

Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.
-Mark 13:33

Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you
-1 Thessalonians 5:16-18

I disagree, sorry. The main purpose is communication with God. We have free will, we can pray for someone a million times whether or not He sees or doesnt see the future and if the will of the person we are praying for is to remain seperated from God, they will remain seperated from God.

The main purpose of prayer in total is communion with God; supplication in and of itself, however, is for the purpose of asking God to do something, or to make some changes, or to at least work toward those changes.

Do you honestly believe God wants you to pray to Him for someone to change if He knows they never will? God is not dishonest, and that would be the epitome of dishonesty.

If you do not believe that, show me biblical evidence that all supplication prayers are answered in the affirmative.

Why in the ever loving world would I think they would all be answered in the affirmative? What sense does that even make regarding my point of view?

 

[Angel4Truth]

God would not ask us to do something such as pray for specific outcomes, or change, if everything was settled; God is not futile and He would not ask us to act futilely.

Prayer is as much for us as someone else and again, we do not know who is who, just because He does.

What?! Of course not! The reason I pray for such is because I hope it will happen; however, if it were already settled that they would not then it would be pointless for me to pray for it.

And if it were settled that they would then my prayer would make no difference; it would be vain babbling.

Then i am assuming you think prayer has no benefit unless your request is granted in the affirmative. What may seem futile, can be a time of self searching too, learned at a later time.

Try reading my post again.

I have, and still disagree.

Can the outcome be any different than what God sees?

No.

And if God can see the future then how is anything conditional? What would the conditions be if God could see the future, thus making the future settled?

God saw that we either met conditions or not and brought all things together for good for those who love Him. It was based on our choices.

How soon does He know the future? How long before the event take place?

You know good and well i cannot answer this and neither could you.

And if God knows we will do A can we choose to do B?

Irrelevant. Wouldn't change that we still made a choice and He didnt make it for us.

You need to explain like ive asked you many times now, how Him knowing the outcome of our choices, means we do not make our own choice.

Conditional on what? What are the conditions?

Depends on what God promised based on a condition (maybe repentance, etc..)

And how can it be conditional if God already knows what will happen?

God knew adam and eve would sin, He didnt make them sin, and He already had a plan of salvation before they sinned.

How can God say, "If this, then that," if He already knows "this" won't happen?

Because we do not know and will either listen or not, by giving us the choice, even though he knows the outcome already, we have chosen to either be obedient or not.
Im really not sure why you seem not to be able to see that we can make a choice even if he already knows what we will choose.

We dont know the outcome - that is HOW we can make a choice.

Seriously?

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
-Matthew 5:43-45

Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.”
-Matthew 9:37-38

Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.
-Mark 13:33

Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you
-1 Thessalonians 5:16-18

Define how those are commands.

The main purpose of prayer in total is communion with God; supplication in and of itself, however, is for the purpose of asking God to do something, or to make some changes, or to at least work toward those changes.

Agree with bolded but not with the rest.

We do not the outcome of what we pray for, and by praying we get to see that we can trust Him.

Do you honestly believe God wants you to pray to Him for someone to change if He knows they never will? God is not dishonest, and that would be the epitome of dishonesty.

I disagree, by praying for others we are loving them, like Christ wants us to do.

Why in the ever loving world would I think they would all be answered in the affirmative? What sense does that even make regarding my point of view?

Because you keep saying if it does no good for them, its pointless altogether. Even though when we pray we pray many things, not just one, and sometimes prayer does things in us even when its for someone else.

Its never pointless even when the answer is no.

 

[Lighthouse]

Prayer is as much for us as someone else and again, we do not know who is who, just because He does.

Our ignorance is irrelevant.

Then i am assuming you think prayer has no benefit unless your request is granted in the affirmative. What may seem futile, can be a time of self searching too, learned at a later time.

Absolutely illogical! This is a complete non sequitur. I believe that God does not know, and therefore it doesn't matter what the outcome is, it can't be futile; whether affirmative or negative.

I have, and still disagree.

Your agreement is irrelevant. You have no understanding of my position, and that is why I told you to read it again.

No.

Then how is their a choice?

God saw that we either met conditions or not and brought all things together for good for those who love Him. It was based on our choices.

What choices? If we have only one option then we have no choice.

You know good and well i cannot answer this and neither could you.

Yes I can, because the Bible tells me; He doesn't know any of our future choices.

Irrelevant. Wouldn't change that we still made a choice and He didnt make it for us.

Again, I ask, what choice? If A is all we can do then we did not choose A, because we had no other option. If we cannot choose B then we cannot choose A.

You need to explain like ive asked you many times now, how Him knowing the outcome of our choices, means we do not make our own choice.

If He is able to know what we will do then we cannot do otherwise, thus we have no choice. If we can only do A and not B, then we cannot choose between them, and thus we have no choice.

Depends on what God promised based on a condition (maybe repentance, etc..)

That doesn't answer my question.

If God already knows what will happen then there can be no conditions.

If God knows what will happen and makes a conditional promise then God is a liar and worse.

God knew adam and eve would sin, He didnt make them sin, and He already had a plan of salvation before they sinned.

Where is your Scripture to back this up? Other than the fact that He didn't make them sin you have nothing to support your position.

Because we do not know and will either listen or not, by giving us the choice, even though he knows the outcome already, we have chosen to either be obedient or not.

If He knows we will be disobedient can we be obedient? Of course not! And if that is the case then there is no choice. If God is able to know the outcome then we cannot do otherwise and thus we have no choice.

Im really not sure why you seem not to be able to see that we can make a choice even if he already knows what we will choose.

Because if can be known then we cannot do otherwise and that is not a choice.

We

dont know the outcome - that is HOW we can make a choice.

:doh:

Our ignorance is irrelevant, because if anyone can know the outcome then nothing else can be done.

Define how those are commands.

Seriously?

The first three are from the mouth of Jesus. And the last is from the apostle to the Gentiles, who is our instructor in following Jesus. How are they not commands?

Agree with bolded but not with the rest.

Then you're ignorant of the meaning of the word "supplication."

We do not the outcome of what we pray for, and by praying we get to see that we can trust Him.

If He wants us to pray for change that He already knew will never happen then we can't trust Him.:nono:

Even if we pray for something to happen and it does, yet God knew before we prayed that it would come to pass and He still wanted us to pray for it what purpose would it have? Would it not be irrelevant?

How do you trust a God who would do that?

I disagree, by praying for others we are loving them, like Christ wants us to do.

If you want to love someone why not do something that's actually useful for them?

Because you keep saying if it does no good for them, its pointless altogether. Even though when we pray we pray many things, not just one, and sometimes prayer does things in us even when its for someone else.

Its never pointless even when the answer is no.

:bang:

The answer is not the issue here!

The entire point is whether or not God knew the outcome before He asked us to pray for such matters. Even if the answer is "Yes," and yet God knew the outcome would be according to what we prayed before we prayed then our prayers would be irrelevant and pointless, because they had no effect and do nothing for the person for whom we prayed.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I'm sorry you do not believe that knowing what we choose doesn't mean He made it for us. I know what a child would choose if i offered a plate of carrots and a plate of cake too, but the child still chooses if i offer her both.

I note that i have yet to get an kind of an answer on how does God make our choice for us just because He knows ultimately what that choice will be.

Untill anyone can answer that and it actually convince me that just because He knows what we choose, means He makes the choice, I have to believe that He indeed knows the end from the beginning -there are just too many scriptures that shows He knows ahead, and its just we who do not.

God bless.

 

[Lighthouse]

I'm sorry you do not believe that knowing what we choose doesn't mean He made it for us. I know what a child would choose if i offered a plate of carrots and a plate of cake too, but the child still chooses if i offer her both.

:sozo:I DON'T BELIEVE IT MEANS HE MADE THE CHOICE FOR US! STOP SAYING THAT!

I note that i have yet to get an kind of an answer on how does God make our choice for us just because He knows ultimately what that choice will be.

:sozo:HE DOESN'T!

Untill anyone can answer that and it actually convince me that just because He knows what we choose, means He makes the choice, I have to believe that He indeed knows the end from the beginning -there are just too many scriptures that shows He knows ahead, and its just we who do not.

:sozo:IT DOESN'T!

It simply means that we don't make a choice; there is no choice involved at all.

And what Scriptures show that He knows all that is ahead?

And what of the Scriptures wherein He claims to not know? Was He lying?

 

[Shasta]

If the theology of Predestination as Calvinism presupposes is true, then prayer would be worthless. We would be compelled to rewrite much of the Bible or just plain ignore it. The Open View is gaining popularity because it deals with scriptures like the one below.

Numbers 14:11- 20
<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>Then the Lord said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them? <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.”


The LORD's intention is to destroy Israel and make of Moses a nation because Israel has repeatedly rejected God and has been a disappointment.


<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>And Moses said to the Lord: “Then the Egyptians will hear it, for by Your might You brought these people up from among them, <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, Lord, are among these people; that You, Lord, are seen face to face and Your cloud stands above them, and You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night. <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>Now if You kill these people as one man, then the nations which have heard of Your fame will speak, saying, <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>‘Because the Lord was not able to bring this people to the land which He swore to give them, therefore He killed them in the wilderness.’ <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>And now, I pray, let the power of my Lord be great, just as You have spoken, saying, <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>‘The Lord is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.’ <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Pardon the iniquity of this people, I pray, according to the greatness of Your mercy, just as You have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.”


Moses pleads mercy for Israel before God, asking God to pardon Israel for her iniquity.

<sup class="versenum">20 </sup>Then the Lord said: “I have pardoned, according to your word;



God relents. It by no means makes God vacillating or weak.


The Bible is full of scriptures like these where God responds to petition.

Once I was listening to man whom I viewed as an accurate representative of a pure Calvinist view. I thought he was at any rate because He had been involved in translating the NIV (about which he was not too happy in retrospect) In the message he was talking about prayer. He made it a point to assure us that "prayer cannot change the mind of God." Once when he asked the question " why then should we pray." I asked myself "yeah why should I?" His answer was "we should pray because God commanded us to pray." so basically it was a sort of ritual we went through because we were told to but which had no connection to anything that would happen.

I am thankful though that most fellow believers who have these ideas in practice do something else. If this fine man's wife were dying I suspect that he might offer a "fervent" red hot prayer and not merely utter futile words because he knew he had to. He has gone to heaven now so bless him. Really I do not know where he was predestined to go. I guess he could not have done anything about it anyway.

Dr Calvin teach us to pray.

"We pray that thou wouldst do what thou wouldst do if Thou wouldst do it knowing that Thou hast already willed what thou wilt do. Nevertheless not my will but thine be done,
Amen"

 

[Shasta]

TOL has a member who is now an atheist because he was raised a Calvinist. The whole idea of God picking and choosing who will get saved and who will go to hell cuts awfully close to blasphemy. It is also a very cruel notion.

The Apostolic Church fathers (before Augustine came around) all taught against predeterminism which was a pernicious error taught by heretical groups.

 

[Sherman]

Predetermination is indeed very erroneous. The Bible is full of accounts where petition moved God. If Calvinism were true, then why is that scripture account that I posted in the OP in the Bible?

 

[oldhermit]

I would define prayer as an act of raising linguistic propositions to the Lord in the midst of human circumstances.

When we encounter such things as issues of economics, health, catestrophic illness, security or any other human condition that is common to man's experience, the exercise of prayer is an act of reassigning these concerns to God. If we have no confidence in either the power or the willingness of God to respond to these concerns, why should we bother? The Lord has instructed us to engage ourselves in prayer for the expressed purpose of bringing the power of God to bear on our circumstances. Why would one avail himself in prayer if there is not expectation for change in the circumstance?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Why would one avail himself in prayer if there is not expectation for change in the circumstance?

Why does one have to have God unable to have seen that you prayed for that change ahead of your prayer for that prayer to have weighed on His actions? God having known already that you prayed still affected His actions, just as not having prayed would have.

 

[surrender]

Then the ending of each good night tuck in would be .....

Of course you may be one that God created to be damned for eternity, and there isn't a darn thing you can do about it.
Sweet dreams little Susie!!! (((kiss kiss)))

Exactly! I had a conversation with a friend about this very thing. He has two little daughters. I asked him if he's okay with not being able to influence his daughters whatsoever regarding their salvation and if he's okay that God may have foreordained them to an eternity in hell (he believes in eternal conscious torment). He said he's okay with it...he trusts God, blah, blah, blah. I don't believe it for a minute. I think if he were honest about all this, he'd be pretty ticked off that God would foreordain his little girls to an eternity in hell.

 

[surrender]

Because WE don't know who is who. Again, prayer is for us.

As to what the passage refers to, i believe the millennial reign of Christ time period.

The time period though is irrelevant to the point, it says that before they call He will answer, meaning He knows what they will ask, which requires foreknowledge.

It doesn't take foreknowledge; it takes being able to search hearts and minds. It says He will answer before they ASK (i.e. speak aloud or ask in their minds). Before you come to God and ask Him something, you think about what it is you're going to ask. You formulate thoughts and ideas in relation to what you're going to ask. Because God knows our every thought, He knows what we're going to ask before we ask it.

 

[Angel4Truth]

It doesn't take foreknowledge; it takes being able to search hearts and minds. It says He will answer before they ASK (i.e. speak aloud or ask in their minds). Before you come to God and ask Him something, you think about what it is you're going to ask. You formulate thoughts and ideas in relation to what you're going to ask. Because God knows our every thought, He knows what we're going to ask before we ask it.

I disagree, while praying, many things come to mind to speak to God about that i was not thinking about before being in prayer.

 

[surrender]

Where are we commanded to pray at all?

“…I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings be made on behalf of ALL men…God our Savior who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1-4).

You need to explain like ive asked you many times now, how Him knowing the outcome of our choices, means we do not make our own choice.

Because the options are only illusions. “Out there” somewhere (or in the mind of God), what we will do has been done. In other words, if God knows I’m going to have pancakes for breakfast tomorrow, then I can’t choose to have cereal. Tomorrow, I may feel like I have a choice, but it’s only an illusion. I’m not saying God chose for us, but if the DVD already played out in the mind of God, then in “real time” the "real" us doesn't have a choice at all. We made our choices in God’s “mind DVD.”

 

[surrender]

I disagree, while praying, many things come to mind to speak to God about that i was not thinking about before being in prayer.

Do you really believe you have a thought that's novel to God? He's intimately acquainted with every thought and feeling you've had since before your birth.

 

[Angel4Truth]

“…I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings be made on behalf of ALL men…God our Savior who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1-4).

Timothy is the "I" there, so that verse is irrelevant to what i said, and he also said he urges, not that God commands it.

Because the options are only illusions. “Out there” somewhere (or in the mind of God), what we will do has been done. In other words, if God knows I’m going to have pancakes for breakfast tomorrow, then I can’t choose to have cereal. Tomorrow, I may feel like I have a choice, but it’s only an illusion. I’m not saying God chose for us, but if the DVD already played out in the mind of God, then in “real time” the "real" us doesn't have a choice at all. We made our choices in God’s “mind DVD.”

God knowing what you choose, disables your ability to make a choice how?

 

[Lighthouse]

Why does one have to have God unable to have seen that you prayed for that change ahead of your prayer for that prayer to have weighed on His actions? God having known already that you prayed still affected His actions, just as not having prayed would have.

If God has known what you would pray from His beginning then His actions were set from the same and they cannot change; just as you are unable to do anything other than what He has always known you will do.

I disagree, while praying, many things come to mind to speak to God about that i was not thinking about before being in prayer.

God knows your needs and the needs of those around you, thus He knows these things before you may even think to ask; and even so in prayer He lays things on your heart, and this is how He knew you would ask before it entered your mind.

 

[surrender]

Timothy is the "I" there, so that verse is irrelevant to what i said, and he also said he urges, not that God commands it.

God, through Paul, urges that prayers be made on behalf of all men. Paul speaks on behalf of God.

God knowing what you choose, disables your ability to make a choice how?

Because my choice was already made by my pseudo-self in God’s mind or some pseudo-universe. “Will the real me stand up, please?!” I mean, seriously, which one is the “real” me making the choices in real time? The one that already made the choices in God’s mind or the present me? Sounds like a bunch of platonic hooey to me.

 

[bybee]

If the theology of Predestination as Calvinism presupposes is true, then prayer would be worthless. We would be compelled to rewrite much of the Bible or just plain ignore it. The Open View is gaining popularity because it deals with scriptures like the one below.

Numbers 14:11- 20
<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>Then the Lord said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them? <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.”


The LORD's intention is to destroy Israel and make of Moses a nation because Israel has repeatedly rejected God and has been a disappointment.


<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>And Moses said to the Lord: “Then the Egyptians will hear it, for by Your might You brought these people up from among them, <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, Lord, are among these people; that You, Lord, are seen face to face and Your cloud stands above them, and You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night. <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>Now if You kill these people as one man, then the nations which have heard of Your fame will speak, saying, <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>‘Because the Lord was not able to bring this people to the land which He swore to give them, therefore He killed them in the wilderness.’ <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>And now, I pray, let the power of my Lord be great, just as You have spoken, saying, <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>‘The Lord is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.’ <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Pardon the iniquity of this people, I pray, according to the greatness of Your mercy, just as You have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.”


Moses pleads mercy for Israel before God, asking God to pardon Israel for her iniquity.

<sup class="versenum">20 </sup>Then the Lord said: “I have pardoned, according to your word;



God relents. It by no means makes God vacillating or weak.


The Bible is full of scriptures like these where God responds to petition.

I absolutely agree that God hears our prayers and considers our needs. His love is all encompassing as is His understanding and His mercy. By responding to our prayers He enables us to move in the right direction. Sometimes, we are merely off sides and need a bit of a nudge to get back on track. No doubt, when tragedy strikes, He shows the way out and we become better people for it. Of course, if we turn our backs to Him, we take ourselves out of His light.

 

[Angel4Truth]

God, through Paul, urges that prayers be made on behalf of all men. Paul speaks on behalf of God.

Because my choice was already made by my pseudo-self in God’s mind or some pseudo-universe. “Will the real me stand up, please?!” I mean, seriously, which one is the “real” me making the choices in real time? The one that already made the choices in God’s mind or the present me? Sounds like a bunch of platonic hooey to me.

You didnt answer my question, and that is my biggest issue with open theism, it doesnt answer that question.

One more time - HOW does God being able to know what you will choose, stop your ability to make a choice?