Mary's Arguments and Questions for Bob
Mary's Arguments and Questions for Bob
Bob, or whom it may concern: I recently emplored some of my inlaws who are self proclaimed devout catholics to enjoy your show on Mary. This is the email I recieved in return to what the show said to him. My rebuttle is in the process, but any further comments that you think I should remark to would be appreciated. I praise God for using Bob Enyart in opening a serious line of communication within my outlying family that hasnt been there in all 4 years of my marriage! I am not necessarily out to convert them, but more or less argue key issues in a mature fashion and hopefully be blessed in our understanding of truth together. Very Respectfully, Craig M. Scarberry
Craig- Here is my initial impression of Enyart's argument: he would
impress a
lot of people who have not actually read the Catholic Church's official
teaching on the Marian doctrines. On the other hand, his arguments are
extremely weak to protestants and catholics alike who have read the
Catholic
Church's teaching on Mary. If I had the chance to sit down with Enyart,
these
are the questions I would ask:
1. Which is worse, a Catholic who appears to worship Mary or a
Protestant who
appears to worship the Bible?
As one who has now been on both sides, I can truly say that the
majority of
protestants in the world that you and I grew up actually worship the
Bible
itself, also called bibliolatry. The Church predates the cannonization
of the
Sacred Scriptures by at least 393 years. What did the first Christians
do in
order to practice the faith. The majorty of persons were very much
illeterate
and had to rely upon the transmission of the gospel by the bishops and
appointed priests of the church. Only at the Council of Hippo in 393
AD, does
the first OT and NT cannon of scriptures come into play. Previous to
that, 3
Bishops (Mileto 175AD, St. Irenaeus 185AD, Eusebius 325 AD) and one
Pope,
(Pope Damasus 382) put together lists of texts that would later be part
of the
cannon. In 405, Pope Innocent I officially closed the selection process
for the
scriptures
Even Martin Luther himself says that the Bible comes from the Catholic
Church,
"We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists (Catholics) that
they
possess the Word of God which we (lutherans) received from them, other
wise we
should have known nothing at all about it". (Commentary on the Gospel
of John,
Chapter 16)
You and I were never told this at Bethany? I was always taught that
Catholics
never read the Bible and that we as Protestants were the ones who
actually
cared about scripture. No one ever told me that it was actually the
Catholic
Church, (Bishops, Popes and Councils) that put together the Bible and
that the
Bible is really a Catholic book. Ok, I must move on.
2. What is veneration?
The Catholic church has always taught, even before there was a Bible,
that Mary
was worthy of veneration, but never of worship. There is a major
difference
between the two. Do the black persons in Anderson worship Martin Luther
King
Jr? Do politicians in D.C. worship Abraham Lincoln. I would say no. But
then
why do they have statues of these men prominently displayed. Are they
worshiping these men by having yearly celebrations by their statues? So
why
would Catholics be accused of worshipping Mary because they have
statues that
are also at the center of yearly celebrations. We could also go into a
long
discussion of "icon vs. idol" and I am sure we soon will. Catholics
VENERATE
(pay homage to, hold up as honorable, try to imitate) Mary and all of
the
saints, because they are worthy of emulating. Scripture also supports
this.
Angels are pretty high up on the spiritual food chain, they are in
direct
contact with God, or at least much closer than you and I. So when an
Angel of
the Lord comes to Mary and says" Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the LORD is
with
thee" (Luke 1:28 and also the source of the Catholic prayer Hail Mary)
then the
angel has to be on to something, wouldn't you agree. Elizabeth then
says that
Mary is "blessed among women" and Mary later says "All generations
shall call
me blessed". If Enyart is really so into Sola Scriptura, then does he
call Mary
blessed? Scripture commands it quite clearly. Most protestants who get
hung up
on Marian veneration do not understand the difference between
veneration and
worship. Catholics make a big deal out of this. Of the 40+ priests I
have
gotten to know in the last couple of years, none of them have ever
advocated
the worship of Mary. Nor have I found a single writing in the churches
2000+
year history that advocates worshipping Mary, because no such writing
exists.
As for the plaque in St. Patricks, I can't speak to that, I have not
seen it in
context. But Enyart is not concerned with the official teaching of the
church
(which a plaque in not) but with what he wants to perceive as
idoloatry.
3. Have you actually read any writings of John Paul II or known any of
the
history surrounding the attempted assasination of JPII, and the Fatima
story?
My guess is that he has not. In order to understand why JPII takes on
the papal
slogan Totus Tuus, one would have to understand the broader context of
this
life and the teachings of the Church. Not to slam Enyart, but to an
educated
Catholic, he makes himself look foolish in his comments on JPII. For
example,
heres a quote from one of JPII's books "Theotokos" "...it is always
nescessary
in Marian doctrine to safeguard the infinite distance between the human
person
of Mary and the divine person of Jesus" page 55. I am sure that even
the term
Marian doctrine would sound scary and idolotrous to Enyart, but I am
also sure
that he would be comfortable using such terms as Petrine or Pauline
doctrines,
based on the messages of Peter and Paul.
For any protestant to believe that Mary was not prepetually virgin,
and worthy
of veneration, is a radical departure from the original roots of
protestantism
just 400 some years ago. Martin Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and even later
on, John
Wesley all believed that Mary ought to be venerated, and was always a
virgin to
the point of death. So why does Enyart today have such a radical
protestant
view? My guess is that he is very much a part of the anti-catholicism
that is
part and parcel of the American culture. American protestants as a
whole have
thrown Mary overboard, literally. I mean, when was the last time you
ever heard
a sermon on the story of Mary in scripture, except at Christmas? Here
is a woman
who actually had Christ, who is God lving inside of her womb. She came
into
direct contact with the Holy Spirit and even more so with Jesus
himself. But a
protestant church is much more likely to preach a sermon on Naomi, Ruth
or even
Aquilla and Priscilla. Does that really make any sense? Mary knew Jesus
longer
than any of the disciples, she was the only person in scripture we know
was an
eye-witness to both the birth and death of the Messiah. Does that not
make her
special? Here is a woman who literally nursed God and changed God's
diaper.
That to me is baffling.
As to Mary's perfection and salvation, it is not of her own merit. If a
person
is on base, walking along towards a 6 foot hole without knowing it and
you say
to them, "hey watch out, there is a hole ahead", they avoid the hole,
were you
not the one who saved them? Without you, they would have been in the
hole. It
is helpfult to view Mary's perfection that way. She was saved in many
ways,
just like you and I, except for the fact that before she ever fell into
the
hole of sin, God saved her. We on the other hand, fell in the hole of
sin and
were then pulled out. Either way, it is still God who is saving us, and
without
him, you, me and Mary would all still be in the hole.
As far as prayer to mary. Catholics and protestants view the word
"prayer" quite
differently. (Of course the Jews were really the first people to use
it) Most
protestants have only ever know Prayer to God. But most Catholics would
see
that there is at least a one way communication TO the saints. Afterall,
the
Scriptures clearly teach that after we die, we actually continue to
live, and
those marked with the sign of faith, actually go to be with God in a
more
intimate relationship.
Caveat: if you had an issue who would you ask to pray for you and why?
would you
ask Rob Lowe or Bob Enyart? Why? Don't we tend to ask people who are
more holy
to pray for us because we believe they are closer to God? Who is
actually
closer to God, a human on earth, still seperated from God by flesh and
sin, or
a person who has actually "passed over" is no longer sinning at all and
lives
in the very presence of God. That is why Catholics ask saints to pray
for us,
becuase, chances are, they have a much better prayer than you or I.
Wow,,, I would love to go on...what do you think?
I would say this. I never wanted to become Catholic. That is for darn
sure. But
the more I actually read the Church's teachings and stopped relying on
Bible
college profs to prepetuate anti-catholic teachings, the more I found
out that
I had been duped all along, although those people prob had good
intentions, but
were sorely ignorant. The bottom line is that the Catholic Church can
trace an
unbroken line of Popes all the way back to Peter, whom Jesus made the
first
leader of the church. In the last 2000+years, the Church has never once
contracdicted herself in any offiicial teachings. (this does not mean
that
there were not contradictions in practice, which we can both agree
happens in
every religion) Meanwhile, those who claim Sola Scripture have
contradicted
themselves enough times to start over 3,000 new denominations in the
united
states alone (all who claime to have the truth from Scripture) Which
means that
at least 2,999 of those denominations have at least one mjor error in
teaching.
Well enough for now. To sum it up. Enyart is only repeating
anti-catholic jargon
that is at least 300 years old. He is way off base form the early
protestant
reformers, all of whom would actually see Enyart as a heretic. Which
begs the
question...if Luther, Calvin, Zwinglii and even Wesley did not have
problems
with the Catholic Church in this area, why does he?
Ok one more thing. You remember Luthers' 95 Thesis that he posted on
the door at
Whittenberg? That was the spark that lit the whole protestant
reformation. Read
through those when you get a chance. You will find that there is really
not one
single issue on that list that actually exists in the same form today.
I am
convinced if Luther came out of his grave today, he would go right back
into
the catholic church. I mean when was the last time a bishop tried to
get you to
sell your soul to God for $100. Luther was fighting political and
practical
issues much more than he was fighting the official teaching of the
church. To
be blunt, but with love, I see protestantism as a great waste of time,
why does
it still exist if it's founding member. Luther. would have no problem
with the
Catholic Church today.
Ok that was it for real.
Pecae-JMW
