"No, I'm Not There; and No, I'm Not Your Mother!" - Mary

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Jefferson

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"No, I'm Not There; and No, I'm Not Your Mother!" - Mary

Monday April 17th, 2006. This is show # 76.

Summary:

*Archbishop of Canterbury suggests that the Watergate scandal began the obsession with alternative versions of reality like The Da Vinci Code and the Gospel of Judas. However, that started with Treegate!
* The Christian lady who said, "The Lord will forgive me for doing our taxes on Easter," was confused and wrong on multiple levels. 1st: legalism; 2nd: arranging for forgiveness in advance; 3rd: intentionally doing something she believed was sinful; 4th: speaking to the media.
* Patrick from Denver told a non-religious guy who thought he'd probably end up in heaven anyway: "Heaven is where you live with God forever, and hell is where you don't; and you're making the decision in this life which you prefer, and so far, you're life tells God that you want nothing to do with Him, and He's getting the message!"
* The Gospel of Judas is just another fabrication of the Gnostics who believed in secret knowledge, and the Creator God and a secret god. In it, Judas says that Jesus is "from the immortal realm of Barbelo [the unknown god]."
* Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code says that Jesus had children by Mary Magdalene, and the Catholic church modified the New Testament to cover up the truth, but if that were true, why wouldn't they also have changed all the passages that challenge their doctrine such as: "Joseph... did not know Mary until she had brought forth her firstborn;" Mary calling God, "my Savior;" Peter being married (Mat. 8:14; 1 Cor. 9:5); etc., etc?
* Plaque to Mary at St. Patrick's Cathedral not only asks her to intercede, but prays to her as to a god: "Perfect Ever Holy Virgin Mary, Mother of the True God for whom we live... our Compassionate Mother, we seek You, we beseech You... Heal our sorrows... shelter us... in the fold of your arms... make us your messengers... Amen." And concludes with a fabricated "quote" from Mary: "Am I not here, I who am your Mother?" No, Mary is not your mother, she is not here, and she is not omnipresent.
Today's Resource: Find out the extraordinary and little-known Bible story of Whatever Happened to The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? You'll a-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y LOVE IT (or your money back)!
 

phat_k_head

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Mary's Arguments and Questions for Bob

Mary's Arguments and Questions for Bob

Bob, or whom it may concern: I recently emplored some of my inlaws who are self proclaimed devout catholics to enjoy your show on Mary. This is the email I recieved in return to what the show said to him. My rebuttle is in the process, but any further comments that you think I should remark to would be appreciated. I praise God for using Bob Enyart in opening a serious line of communication within my outlying family that hasnt been there in all 4 years of my marriage! I am not necessarily out to convert them, but more or less argue key issues in a mature fashion and hopefully be blessed in our understanding of truth together. Very Respectfully, Craig M. Scarberry

Craig- Here is my initial impression of Enyart's argument: he would
impress a
lot of people who have not actually read the Catholic Church's official
teaching on the Marian doctrines. On the other hand, his arguments are
extremely weak to protestants and catholics alike who have read the
Catholic
Church's teaching on Mary. If I had the chance to sit down with Enyart,
these
are the questions I would ask:

1. Which is worse, a Catholic who appears to worship Mary or a
Protestant who
appears to worship the Bible?
As one who has now been on both sides, I can truly say that the
majority of
protestants in the world that you and I grew up actually worship the
Bible
itself, also called bibliolatry. The Church predates the cannonization
of the
Sacred Scriptures by at least 393 years. What did the first Christians
do in
order to practice the faith. The majorty of persons were very much
illeterate
and had to rely upon the transmission of the gospel by the bishops and
appointed priests of the church. Only at the Council of Hippo in 393
AD, does
the first OT and NT cannon of scriptures come into play. Previous to
that, 3
Bishops (Mileto 175AD, St. Irenaeus 185AD, Eusebius 325 AD) and one
Pope,
(Pope Damasus 382) put together lists of texts that would later be part
of the
cannon. In 405, Pope Innocent I officially closed the selection process
for the
scriptures
Even Martin Luther himself says that the Bible comes from the Catholic
Church,
"We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists (Catholics) that
they
possess the Word of God which we (lutherans) received from them, other
wise we
should have known nothing at all about it". (Commentary on the Gospel
of John,
Chapter 16)
You and I were never told this at Bethany? I was always taught that
Catholics
never read the Bible and that we as Protestants were the ones who
actually
cared about scripture. No one ever told me that it was actually the
Catholic
Church, (Bishops, Popes and Councils) that put together the Bible and
that the
Bible is really a Catholic book. Ok, I must move on.


2. What is veneration?
The Catholic church has always taught, even before there was a Bible,
that Mary
was worthy of veneration, but never of worship. There is a major
difference
between the two. Do the black persons in Anderson worship Martin Luther
King
Jr? Do politicians in D.C. worship Abraham Lincoln. I would say no. But
then
why do they have statues of these men prominently displayed. Are they
worshiping these men by having yearly celebrations by their statues? So
why
would Catholics be accused of worshipping Mary because they have
statues that
are also at the center of yearly celebrations. We could also go into a
long
discussion of "icon vs. idol" and I am sure we soon will. Catholics
VENERATE
(pay homage to, hold up as honorable, try to imitate) Mary and all of
the
saints, because they are worthy of emulating. Scripture also supports
this.
Angels are pretty high up on the spiritual food chain, they are in
direct
contact with God, or at least much closer than you and I. So when an
Angel of
the Lord comes to Mary and says" Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the LORD is
with
thee" (Luke 1:28 and also the source of the Catholic prayer Hail Mary)
then the
angel has to be on to something, wouldn't you agree. Elizabeth then
says that
Mary is "blessed among women" and Mary later says "All generations
shall call
me blessed". If Enyart is really so into Sola Scriptura, then does he
call Mary
blessed? Scripture commands it quite clearly. Most protestants who get
hung up
on Marian veneration do not understand the difference between
veneration and
worship. Catholics make a big deal out of this. Of the 40+ priests I
have
gotten to know in the last couple of years, none of them have ever
advocated
the worship of Mary. Nor have I found a single writing in the churches
2000+
year history that advocates worshipping Mary, because no such writing
exists.
As for the plaque in St. Patricks, I can't speak to that, I have not
seen it in
context. But Enyart is not concerned with the official teaching of the
church
(which a plaque in not) but with what he wants to perceive as
idoloatry.

3. Have you actually read any writings of John Paul II or known any of
the
history surrounding the attempted assasination of JPII, and the Fatima
story?

My guess is that he has not. In order to understand why JPII takes on
the papal
slogan Totus Tuus, one would have to understand the broader context of
this
life and the teachings of the Church. Not to slam Enyart, but to an
educated
Catholic, he makes himself look foolish in his comments on JPII. For
example,
heres a quote from one of JPII's books "Theotokos" "...it is always
nescessary
in Marian doctrine to safeguard the infinite distance between the human
person
of Mary and the divine person of Jesus" page 55. I am sure that even
the term
Marian doctrine would sound scary and idolotrous to Enyart, but I am
also sure
that he would be comfortable using such terms as Petrine or Pauline
doctrines,
based on the messages of Peter and Paul.

For any protestant to believe that Mary was not prepetually virgin,
and worthy
of veneration, is a radical departure from the original roots of
protestantism
just 400 some years ago. Martin Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and even later
on, John
Wesley all believed that Mary ought to be venerated, and was always a
virgin to
the point of death. So why does Enyart today have such a radical
protestant
view? My guess is that he is very much a part of the anti-catholicism
that is
part and parcel of the American culture. American protestants as a
whole have
thrown Mary overboard, literally. I mean, when was the last time you
ever heard
a sermon on the story of Mary in scripture, except at Christmas? Here
is a woman
who actually had Christ, who is God lving inside of her womb. She came
into
direct contact with the Holy Spirit and even more so with Jesus
himself. But a
protestant church is much more likely to preach a sermon on Naomi, Ruth
or even
Aquilla and Priscilla. Does that really make any sense? Mary knew Jesus
longer
than any of the disciples, she was the only person in scripture we know
was an
eye-witness to both the birth and death of the Messiah. Does that not
make her
special? Here is a woman who literally nursed God and changed God's
diaper.
That to me is baffling.

As to Mary's perfection and salvation, it is not of her own merit. If a
person
is on base, walking along towards a 6 foot hole without knowing it and
you say
to them, "hey watch out, there is a hole ahead", they avoid the hole,
were you
not the one who saved them? Without you, they would have been in the
hole. It
is helpfult to view Mary's perfection that way. She was saved in many
ways,
just like you and I, except for the fact that before she ever fell into
the
hole of sin, God saved her. We on the other hand, fell in the hole of
sin and
were then pulled out. Either way, it is still God who is saving us, and
without
him, you, me and Mary would all still be in the hole.

As far as prayer to mary. Catholics and protestants view the word
"prayer" quite
differently. (Of course the Jews were really the first people to use
it) Most
protestants have only ever know Prayer to God. But most Catholics would
see
that there is at least a one way communication TO the saints. Afterall,
the
Scriptures clearly teach that after we die, we actually continue to
live, and
those marked with the sign of faith, actually go to be with God in a
more
intimate relationship.

Caveat: if you had an issue who would you ask to pray for you and why?
would you
ask Rob Lowe or Bob Enyart? Why? Don't we tend to ask people who are
more holy
to pray for us because we believe they are closer to God? Who is
actually
closer to God, a human on earth, still seperated from God by flesh and
sin, or
a person who has actually "passed over" is no longer sinning at all and
lives
in the very presence of God. That is why Catholics ask saints to pray
for us,
becuase, chances are, they have a much better prayer than you or I.

Wow,,, I would love to go on...what do you think?

I would say this. I never wanted to become Catholic. That is for darn
sure. But
the more I actually read the Church's teachings and stopped relying on
Bible
college profs to prepetuate anti-catholic teachings, the more I found
out that
I had been duped all along, although those people prob had good
intentions, but
were sorely ignorant. The bottom line is that the Catholic Church can
trace an
unbroken line of Popes all the way back to Peter, whom Jesus made the
first
leader of the church. In the last 2000+years, the Church has never once
contracdicted herself in any offiicial teachings. (this does not mean
that
there were not contradictions in practice, which we can both agree
happens in
every religion) Meanwhile, those who claim Sola Scripture have
contradicted
themselves enough times to start over 3,000 new denominations in the
united
states alone (all who claime to have the truth from Scripture) Which
means that
at least 2,999 of those denominations have at least one mjor error in
teaching.

Well enough for now. To sum it up. Enyart is only repeating
anti-catholic jargon
that is at least 300 years old. He is way off base form the early
protestant
reformers, all of whom would actually see Enyart as a heretic. Which
begs the
question...if Luther, Calvin, Zwinglii and even Wesley did not have
problems
with the Catholic Church in this area, why does he?

Ok one more thing. You remember Luthers' 95 Thesis that he posted on
the door at
Whittenberg? That was the spark that lit the whole protestant
reformation. Read
through those when you get a chance. You will find that there is really
not one
single issue on that list that actually exists in the same form today.
I am
convinced if Luther came out of his grave today, he would go right back
into
the catholic church. I mean when was the last time a bishop tried to
get you to
sell your soul to God for $100. Luther was fighting political and
practical
issues much more than he was fighting the official teaching of the
church. To
be blunt, but with love, I see protestantism as a great waste of time,
why does
it still exist if it's founding member. Luther. would have no problem
with the
Catholic Church today.

Ok that was it for real.


Pecae-JMW
 
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Jefferson

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phat_k_head said:
Bob, or whom it may concern: I recently emplored some of my inlaws who are self proclaimed devout catholics to enjoy your show on Mary. This is the email I recieved in return to what the show said to him. My rebuttle is in the process, but any further comments that you think I should remark to would be appreciated. I praise God for using Bob Enyart in opening a serious line of communication within my outlying family that hasnt been there in all 4 years of my marriage!
phat_k_head:

First of all, welcome to TOL. :wave: Secondly, I'm sure Bob would LOVE to hear about the role he has played in the progress you have achieved with your family. So my suggestion is that you call his show, tell him the good news, and while your at it you can get him to answer some of these questions, maybe even all of them if time allows. Mon-Fri at 5 pm ET and again at 6 pm ET 1-800-8Enyart.
 

phat_k_head

New member
My rebuttle

My rebuttle

ok, here is my rebuttle to my brother in law joe. I pray God uses this in any way he deems necessary and I welcome any further comments from others to what either of us said. Thank you!


Mr. JMW,

First off, let me start out by apologizing to you for the delay in response. With all the craziness of house hunting and navy stuff I can only really find the time at work… strange huh? Haha

Secondly, I want to apologize at the start for not being able to pose a greater knowledge and debate being as I do not have the kind of studies you have been enlightened to. Even though I am a long time believer, I feel new to the process of faith and what truth really is to me. I, in no way am trying to condemn or cause hatred towards another who professes the name of Christ as savior. THAT is the only truth that is necessary, all else is only the political jargon of denominations that keeps us separated as true brothers and sisters in our Lord. This dying human race of immorality and deceit is rapidly taking over our churches today and watering down God in a way that is vile and can make it easy to become untrusting of even those who worship next to us. I will try to answer your questions as appropriately as possible, but understand that I am answering by what I feel is truth and that everyday since my reaffirmation of faith do I learn more than I have ever knew. It is amazing to me how one can spend their whole life in a Christ filled community but then find out they don’t know anything. Praise God for giving me the chance to discover truth before it has become too late. My knowledge is only increasing every new day that I really start to take the word seriously and search for the truth. God used Brian Kline and Bob Enyart to help me find the strength and boldness needed to get back up, dust myself off from some wicked falls, and try again! This time seeking only what is truth and leaving that other heretic mumbo jumbo behind.

You would be a worthy caller to the Enyart show. Your enlightenment compared to his would make a great debate. You were raised protestant, he was catholic. You found what you believed to be truth in the catholic faith; he found it outside the Catholic Church. Opposites with similar views…. It’s all very intriguing. Should you ever want to debate Bob, call him at 1800-8ENYART (1800-836-9278) on his show times which is 5 pm. I would love to hear you two discuss this topic. I hope you don’t mind but I did post your email on theologyonline.com under the show title in hopes to get some responses. Anyways, I am going to address your questions the best I can in order. I want to say thank you for taking the time out to listen to the show and emailing so swiftly.

Idolatry is Idolatry! No matter what it is or what is being idolized…IT IS A SIN AND IT IS WRONG! I do not believe that all Catholics worship Mary, nor will I believe that all Protestants place their faith and hope in where it truly belongs. There is a very thin line between idolatry and iconic stature. I do believe that line can be easily crossed without realization of doing so in many cases. I also do not feel that because the Catholic Church placed the bible into one book, we should yield any protest we may have to the way things are fashioned or completed. All denominations are based off the same truths but interpreted differently, right? The truth of our Lord would have been revealed regardless of what vessel he allowed to do so. I apologize for your experience at Bethany. Mine, I can honestly say, was not the same. I have never heard anyone disclaim or discredit the catholic belief, but I know you are not the only to come away with this type of understanding. Maybe I just wasn’t listening. hahaha However, just because of what a few may speak out in their ignorance or knowledge, whichever way you view through the looking glass, doesn’t speak for protestants in a whole. Just as you wish for Protestants not to see Catholics as worshipping Mary or the pope, I ask you not to group all those who are non catholic in the same way. I have witnessed on many occasions, on my own accounts and others such as St. Patrick’s plaque, what is easily construed as idolatry, regardless to if the basics of the church has this in mind or not. Officials in today’s churches are as mislead as the people they are trying to lead. Anywhere from child molesting catholic priest to ordained outspoken homosexual protestant pastors. I know I have said it before, but we live in a dying church and it all sickens me greatly. This kind of corruption of the people, priest, and pastors needs to come to an end if truth is to ever truly be found.

2. I do not disagree that Mary is blessed. Holy? I say no. Sinless and perfect? I still disagree. She calls Jesus, her son, as her own savior. If she is truly sinless or perfect than what is the need of a savior? I do believe she knew Jesus in a way no other would as his earthly mother and caretaker. I do believe the Lord blessed her. I do NOT perceive her as my holy mother, or believe that she can bless me and/or others. Nor do I see necessity to pray to her as an indirect way to reach Christ. The Lord calls us to come to HIM through the truth and the light, not through Mary. Why pray for saints and Mary to ask the Lord for something I can ask him myself? I can believe it is not taught this way by true catholic structure, but how is it learned if so many can be under the impression that it does cross the line of blessed or holy? I will not continue to beat a dead idea that I have already stated, but how far has the church come from its original structure? Any church?! Catholic or Protestant? For you and yours, you have found truth….Praise God if it truly is!! However, how many others like myself when I was going through the motions, have been mislead by wrongful translations or beliefs? As I stated before, icon vs. idol is a very fine line! I do not see African Americans kissing and praying to statues of MLK Jr. or politicians asking the statues of Abraham Lincoln for guidance or to talk to God for them. It would not be shocking if I did though. Why spend your time venerating Mary when you can spend that time doing the same to the Lord. I am not saying she is not worth the time to recognize or that she is not special in her own way, but once she can be a misleading factor of where someone’s worship belongs…doesn’t that make it wrong? Your definition: “pay homage to, hold up as honorable, try to imitate”. I can agree with honoring her role in this world by bringing in Christ. However, to imitate? I would much rather my little girls grow up trying to imitate Christ. Not his human mother. She was human. Therefore, she was with sin. If she wasn’t, why was there a need for God in flesh to save us and outspoken theology of studying the way of Mary and not Christ? Why would there not be more of Mary’s life before Christ? I am not trying to paint her or the respect for her in a negative way by any means. I am merely stating that even with that definition, the fine line of icon vs. idol can be confused and crossed. Why play with what could burn you? How do you feel the Catholic “veneration” compares to what the first commandment states? You may feel that the bible is very symbolic in its scriptures, but there are certain things that are very much so black and white… Ten Commandments being one of many.

EXODUS 20: 1-6 (NKJV) - “AND GOD SPOKE ALL THESE WORDS, SAYING: I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD WHO BROUGHT YOU OUT OF EGYPT, OUT OF THE HOUSE OF BONDAGE. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOUSELF A CARVED IMAGE-ANY LIKENESS OF ANYTHING THAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE, OR THAT IS IN THE EARTH BENEATH, OR THAT IS IN THE WATER UNDER THE EARTH; YOU SHALL NOT BOW DOWN TO THEM NOR SERVE THEM. FOR I, THE LORD YOUR GOD, AM A JEALOUS GOD, VISITING THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHERS UPON THE CHILDREN TO THE THIRD AND FOURTH GENERATIONS OF THOSE WHO HATE ME, BUT SHOWING MERCY TO THOUSANDS, TO THOSE WHO LOVE ME AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.”

This commandment warns us of holding something else as holy and promises punishment upon generations of our descendants. The passage again is recaptured in Deut. 5: 1-8. Time and time again in the stories of the bible we see punishment and just how jealous our God can be for crossing that line of idolatry. Even Jesus speaks out and states that all accounts held in the Old Testament are true. Maybe to you my views are unworthy and a bit iconoclastic, maybe they are. This is where we begin to clash in many of our views due to your abundant knowledge of what you believe to be true, and my growing knowledge of what I feel is false. God bless whichever one of us is correct if not both! J


3. As where I can not answer for Bob Enyart as to your specific questions, I am only answering you mine for the sake of brotherly debate, growth, and understanding. I can tell you that as Bob stated in the show he was raised Catholic and he is definitely an educated man to be able to debate atheist and prominent figures of government and church alike. However, being new unto his show as well, I can not speak for him or list his credentials. I have not read any of the pope’s writings. Therefore, I cannot make an argument on his life or the subject in whole. I could possible support an argument as stated above between veneration of a man’s life and idolatry, but there’s no reason when I just made it. I am not anti-catholic. I am anti political church. Politics corrupt the meaning. Because the Catholic Church is one of the oldest around, there is good reason to believe that it could quite possible have some of the most corruption to date. THE POINT IS….I AM NOT ANTI CATHOLIC………I AM ANTI-DENOMINATIONS! I don’t know maybe Enyart would even disagree my feelings on that. As far as “sermons of the mother” statements… you hold truth there, but how much is actually written about her excluding the facts of the birth and death of her son? Do you think it is possible that God made it this way so people would not focus on what the point was? To ensure the story is and was not about Mary, but about what happened to her son and how she witnessed it? Simply put, there are no stories of her nursing or changing His robes, because it is irrelevant. What would there be to tell? If HE is perfection….there was no rebellious period or heartache his mother was to endure. Shoot I wouldn’t be surprised if He changed His own diapers. HAHAHAHAH j/k (sorry for the irrelevant ignorant inappropriate jokeJ )

Anyways, I do not believe Mary to be perfect, but only of the bloodline of Abraham and chosen by God to deliver unto us THE key to salvation. As for your analogy of the warning man… if it happened to me… I would say thank you for the warning then praise God that that man wasn’t blind, or for using that man as a warning factor and being at the right place at the right time. If you are stating that Mary is perfect because God makes her that way due to forgiving her and welcoming her into His arms, then I agree with you. God’s love is perfect and we are as perfect as she is if we have accepted the truth and have been saved from sin.

In reference to the prayers to Mary and the saints I would say to you that I personally have never asked anyone to “pray for me”. I know this is unusual in the majority of man has. However, I have asked many to “pray with me”. I also believe that when we die, and if the Lord is willing, we go to heaven; we go to heaven to be with God and live intimately. I look forward to that day should I make it there. Hell is only eternal separation from the truth and closeness to God Himself. I believe God calls on us to have a relationship with HIM. Not the saints. What are saints but those of us sinners who lived for the lessons and life of Christ’s teachings? What is a relationship that has no communication between you and the one you are trying to know? It isn’t one. Why would God call us to come to know Him and worship Him and grow in Him but never be as close as those whom a church deems sainthood on? If I ask a person to remember me or anyone else in their prayers…. I am not asking them to pray or speak for me to God…. I am still praying myself…. I do not believe God is deaf and will not hear my prayer. Asking for remembrance during prayer is only of support to the sinner. I do not believe God chooses who he wants to hear or not. Even Satan converses with God in Scripture. Why add a middleman in a relationship for 2? Or better said a relationship for 1. God loves us. He calls us to do the same in return. I do not remember reading anything in the bible that calls us to come to him through making appointments with angels or those that have gone before us. It is a direct line of love. He is always here for us, and that is why I can not agree with prayer to Mary or the saints. I believe in cutting out the middle man and getting to know the Man that has called upon me to love. I honestly believe that no man is “closer to God” or can be “more holy”. MAN IS MAN! A SINNER! A WORTHLESS BAG OF FLESH WITHOUT CHRIST AND REPENTANCE! THE WALKING DEAD! We are in agreement there. However, that does not justify ignoring the Lord’s call to us to know Him more intimately and not use a 3rd party agreement. I do not believe they pray better than us. What prayer is more music to the Lord’s ear than a sinner who begs for love, forgiveness, and reconciliation or an already established saint in God’s presence? The bible states that million angels rejoice at the return of the lost. How sincere can it really be if you did wrong you’re your father and had your best friend or your ministers go tell him sorry for you? there is no sincerity in that! If my son should try and pull that the first thing I would say is…”I want to hear it from his mouth!!” I mean maybe our parenting ideas are as different as our religious beliefs. But what if I never knew of any saints but I found the truth of the Lord….do I go to hell?

I am wise enough to know that there is hatred out there for anything. In your case you have ran across much hatred towards the Catholic Church when you were in your studies. I am sorry for you brother. I rejoice that you have found something that makes you feel closer to God. Even if I don’t understand how one can feel closer to God by relying on someone/something else to develop the relationship. You say you have developed yourself from the “Church’s teachings”, all I say is be careful not to fall into “the Church” and forget that it is only a vessel for us to fellowship and know God. What holds more truths in your opinion? The Catholic Church’s teachings? Or the Bible itself? I understand your point of bibliolatry, and agree to the misuse some use, but that does not discredit the truth of what the Word has in it. You say Luther would rejoin the Catholic Church today. Sadly, I would still disagree to a point that can not be proven. Maybe the circumstances for his departure were different then, but even now like in many Protestant and Catholic Churches alike, the disgrace of heathen teachings and leaders would lead me to believe Luther would have only stayed the course and tried to maintain his new found church from falling like so many around him to perversity and lies. Matter of fact, he would have probably left and started over after the Lutheran Church adopted an open homosexual as a church leader a few years ago… I say to you brother that simple of head council voting him to be instated was the day I let go of my faith in “the church”. I hope to find peace in that area of my life. It is my biggest hurdle to overcome, for that bias is not just to a denominational region but to the church as it is to be viewed as.

God has placed much excitement in my life. I have found that “church camp” feeling without all the hype of the actual event. I am overjoyed at the thought of reconciliation with God the father and just how serious He is to have me as a son, and I to be taken!!! God bless you Joe and your family for believing in the Christ. Only time can tell if sides in this matter really matter or not. You can write me off as clueless and I encourage you to ask Bob these questions yourself, but I know what I have found truth to be…..outside of the church and inside of God. I hope all things are well and I look forward to further line of communication with you. You were at once a beacon God used to bring me to Him. I respect you and what you believe is truth. (even if I don’t always agree)


Peace, Blessings, and Truth be with you and yours forever and ever AMEN!

Craig
 
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phat_k_head

New member
OK ANYWAYS....

OK ANYWAYS....

Granite said:
Anybody here ever been to St. Patrick's? I have. Breathtaking.


I'M SURE IT IS A BEAUTIFUL CATHEDRAL AS MANY ARE... BUT THIS IS IRRELIVANT TO THE WHOLE POINT. THE POINT IS THE BLASPHEMUS PLAQUE THEY HARBOR AND EVEN THOUGH MANY CATHOLICS MAY NOT "WORSHIP" MARY... IT CERTAINLY CAN BE PRECIEVED THAT WAY.
 

Jefferson

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phat_k_head said:
Should you ever want to debate Bob, call him at 1800-8ENYART (1800-836-9278) on his show times which is 5 pm.
You should probably let them know that it's 5pm Eastern time. By the way, there is a show somewhere in the KGOV archives where Bob debated a Catholic friend of his. I'll see if I can find it.
 

phat_k_head

New member

phat_k_head

New member
The ongoing comments...

The ongoing comments...

here is a new thread of comments by JMW after reading my reply....i will answer and post again.....i have not read it yet, but i welcome any comments.

There are at least 362 points that I would like to take up from your
last
e-mail. But since you and I are both bound by space and time, lets
start off
with just two of the major issues that we have opened up. The
Church/Authority
and Mary.

Before I start blabbering, let me just say that it is a wonderful thing
when a
person continues his conversion process. The scriptures, as you know,
present
sanctification (hagiosmos) as both a one time event and an on-going
process. I
am glad to know that yours is seeing a significant time of growth. I am
enjoying the theological company.

It will probably be best if we evaluate different church traditions
based upon
the actual/official holdings of a given churches doctrinal statements.
Enyart's
critique of Marian teaching within the Catholic church was at least 75%
based
upon his perception of anecdotal experience, instead of the actual
official
teachings of the Catholic Church. This may be more difficult to find in
some
protestant traditions, ie. the Stone-Campbell Movement which would
eventually
result in the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ. Nonetheless, each
protestant tradition usually has some collection of papers which are
associated
with the creation of each movement.

You say that you are "ANTI-DENOMINATIONS". While I think I know just
where you
are coming from, let's explore that sentiment first.

What is your definition of a denomination? What is it that sets one
denomination
apart from the others. How can one be non-denominational?

In the United States, we have about 33,830 distinct Christian
denominations.
That would include the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ, of which
Bethany
is a part. While the "brotherhood" of Christian Churches/Churches of
Christ
carries the "non-denominational" slogan, why would it be listed as a
denomination in all major protestant denom listings? Just this weekend
in
Anderson, there is special youth convention for youth in these
churches. If it
is really not denominational, why are there probably no baptists,
lutherans,
episcopalians etc present at the convention? (Which reminds me of the
time
Dustin and his friend fell asleep at a youth convention in Indianapolis
and
your poor father had to come find them and pick them up, good times).
Now I
don't say that to make an exclusive rip on these churches, but they are
simply
the ones I am most familiar.

Here is an observation, every movement of Christianity which begins as
anti-denominational or non-denominational eventually becomes a
denomination.
The Christians Churches/Churches of Christ only being a single case in
point.
Both Stone and Campbell were anti-denominational. They both wanted to
do away
with the trappings of the official doctrines/creeds and dogmas that
they were
involved in in their day ( I would argue rightfully so). But as nice as
that
sounds, it is not possible to do. The early slogans of the movement
were "No
Creed, but Christ" "Christians Only, but not the Only Christians". But
now 200+
years later, that movement has become a denomination just like any
other. Of
course, some will define denomination as a religious political group
that has
annual conventions where members vote on a variety of issues that come
into
contact with that particular groups belief structure. But I would
define a
denomination as a group of disciples that meets regularly to share a
common
religious point of view, (particularly on Sundays) when other groups
with
differing beliefs are meeting in other places. Each Sunday in the
United
States, there are over 33,000 different groups of people worshipping
Christ,
but with different systems of beliefs. Some of these beliefs are subtle
but
still cause a seperation, such as "should a person take communion from
a small
plastic cup passed in the pew, or a single chalice located at the front
of the
sanctuary".

Here is what I am getting at: It is not possible for human beings to
operate
outside of order and organization. Or in otherwords, all human beings
and human
institutions reflect a principle of organization and order. Even though
persons
and religious groups may begin in a more "non-denominational" way, they
always
end up systematizing a unique set of beliefs which sets them apart from
other
groups and persons. The military would be a prime example of this.

Even though we all might have the same goal, to defend freedom, unless
we in
some way organize, we will never be succesful. There must be a
political
hierarchy or chaos will ensue. I won't go on with that illustration,
but I am
sure you see the point.

If organization/order is a fundamental charachteristic of humanity, why
should
it be left out of religion?

Of course, I would say that there is only one Christian denomination
that is
legitimate, and that is the Catholic Church. Logically, I could also
admit one
other protestant denomination of the 33,000+ in the United States, but
that
denom would then have to trump Catholicism. Which I believe is not
possible
since Jesus started the Catholic Church, not the protestant
revolt/reformation.

Here is something to ponder when it comes to the corruption in the
churches that
you mention. Should we be all that surprised that there is corruption
in any
given church? And does that corruption actually negate that teachings
of the
given church or it's founder/s?

Jesus, being fully God and fully man, chose 12 apostles to be his
original
"church" as it were. All of the 12 men were corrupt in some way or
another, and
one, Judas even goes so far as to betray his "founder" and has him
handed over
to the Pharisees. What does that say about the current scandals of
today? Even
Jesus himself chose corrupt men to lead his church, should we be in any
way
surpised by what we see going on today. And further, do we reject the
message
of Jesus because Judas was suicidal and even Peter was embarrased of
our Lord?

It would also not be fair to reject the message of John Wesley, Calvin,
Zwingli,
etc based upon the way that people practice those faiths today. We
really need
evaluate the truth of a religion based upon it's official beliefs and
founding
ideas. Does the fact that less than 1% of Catholic priests were accused
of
sexual misconduct negate the central holding of the Catholic Church?
Even here
in Anderson the a youth minister at a Christian Church was found to
have been
molesting the students in his youth group, but should that negate the
message
of Stone and Campbell? It is best to judge a denomination based upon
what it
actually holds to be truth, as opposed to how some members might
practice in
illegitimate ways.

The Catholic Church envisions herself as the original Church that Jesus
Christ
started before his crucifixtion, ressurection and ascension. It is also
the
Church that Jesus promised would be be guided by the Holy Spirit into
all
truth. My final decision to become Catholic was based upon this
discovery. If I
would have discovered that Jesus actually started the Dairy Queen
company, I
would today be dolling out soft-serve ice-cream. But instead, I am
attempting
to be a disciple of Jesus in the Catholic Church, which I hold is the
Church
that Jesus started. Therefore, from my point of view, any schisms from
the
Catholic church are just that, schisms. In other words, protestantism
is a sect
of Christianity. Protestantism by definition, would include any group
of
disciples of Jesus that finds themselves outside of the Catholic
tradition,
that is, not in communion with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) and the
College of
Bishops (the rest of the bishops on the globe). Typically, most
Protestant
churches trace their roots back to the mid 1500's when Luther was
causing his
little revolt over in Germany. Just a couple of hundred years earlier,
there
was "the western schism" which split the Western Orthodox churches off
of the
Catholic Church.

Jesus prays that all "believers" be one. (St. John 17.20-21). Can we in
any way
reflect that today in protestantism? Jesus' prayer was effective for
nearly
1,300 years, and in the Catholic Church it does indeed continue.

Jesus also promised that the Holy Spirit would come and guide the
Church into
all truth. (St John 16.13) Was Jesus promising something he could not
fulfill? I
believe that the Holy Spirit still continues to guide the Church into
all truth.
Interesting enough, the Catholic Church has never overruled,
overturned, or
contradicted a single official/dogmatic teaching in all of her history
of 1970+
years. How could that be since the church is by no doubt full of sinful
persons?
I beleive that Jesus did what he said he would do, and the the Church
today
still has the Holy Spirit as the source of all truth.

Jesus also, knowing that all humans need order, gave the Church it's
first human
leader on earth, Simon Barjona, whose name was changed to Petros/Rock
by Jesus
himself. Jesus also promised that "upon this rock/petros I will build
MY church
and the gates of hell shall not overcome it." (St. Matt 16.13-18) Jesus
gave us
Peter as our first Pope and he gave us Benedict the 16th as our 265th
Pope.
None of these men have been perfect, and some of them were outright
jerks and
moral failures. But how could it be that the oldest institution now on
the face
of the earth has not been toppled and has not contradicted itself in
her
teachings? Becuase this is the Church that belongs to Jesus. Jesus
himself
began the Catholic Church and continues to protect it to this very day
from
destruction and heresy.

I am not negating that God is obviously present and working in the
hearts of
protestants, catholics and pagans alike. I myself initially fell in
love with
Jesus while practicing protestantism. Of course I will forever be
thankful for
that and I am glad the church was there for me. Just because a person
is a
protestant does not mean that they are not Christian or do not love
Jesus. I am
sure there are thousands of protestants who are naive as to why their
particular
church exists, and I am sure just as many will die fully in love with
Christ.

But what if Jesus really did start a single Church/Denomination and he
intended
for it to stay that way? As "one" just as He and the Father are one.

Let me know what you think. I don't have any energy left to proof this,
so I
will click "send" as an act of faith. Let's fully explore and finish
this topic
before we move on to Mary. I think we will both get more out of it that
way (of
course, that is just a natural tendancy on my part to organize, ha)

Have a great remainder of your weekend.

Peace- JMW
 
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