New experience for a muslim

Mulla Sadra

Member
God’s purpose for creating His creation was for His pleasure. He will do whatever pleases Him to get His creation to result as exactly as He wishes.

Please, if God's reason of Creation is not EXACTLY (itself) accomplished, then God isn't wise because he didn't plan it right. [and then there's no God].

And this reason God planned, must be stocked within creation, or creation is non-existent, if Reason is not there within Creation, then No Creation is, and if the Reason is within it, as long it is, Creation is there.

and for those two evidences of Cause and Effect, Creation can't be submitted to a reason other than what it was created as, and it cannot be reasoned to a persona.

It must be reasoned to something that is Creation in essence.

Thats why Muslims say the reason of Creation is for the earth to be governed by Humans, and the factor of understanding the result of the reason is worshiping.

Both, Earth/Universe and Worshiping of God, are parts that cannot parted of Creation.

You say that the reason is pleasure of God and the factor is Jesus.
Both not parts of the essence of Existence. (Only if you believe that God created his pleasure , and it is not God's Pleasure as an in distinctive feature of himself,
After that you would have to prove that God's Pleasure is part of this creation (not just created), and if you do, you would unwillingly say that Pleasure you mean got XYZ because one of the laws that govern this Creation is "body", and if you say no it is not, then there would be no reason for Jesus to be an Angel one time or a body another time. - as you believe -)

While Jesus, wasn't effective factor in the Creation till born, then the Creation should've been non-existent until he was born.

Easily : Creation and the result of it can't be something not in the essence of it, and can't be but within the full timeline of Creation, because the void of Creation from it, means that the Creation doesn't have a pillar to stand on.
 
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Mulla Sadra

Member
And for that We believe, Allah would Judge people according to their governance of Earth (Daily Life), and their Worship of God (Theology).
 

lifeisgood

New member
Please, if God's reason of Creation is not EXACTLY (itself) accomplished, then God isn't wise because he didn't plan it right. [and then there's no God].

And this reason God planned, must be stocked within creation, or creation is non-existent, if Reason is not there within Creation, then No Creation is, and if the Reason is within it, as long it is, Creation is there.

and for those two evidences of Cause and Effect, Creation can't be submitted to a reason other than what it was created as, and it cannot be reasoned to a persona.

It must be reasoned to something that is Creation in essence.

Thats why Muslims say the reason of Creation is for the earth to be governed by Humans, and the factor of understanding the result of the reason is worshiping.

Both, Earth/Universe and Worshiping of God, are parts that cannot parted of Creation.

You say that the reason is pleasure of God and the factor is Jesus.
Both not parts of the essence of Existence. (Only if you believe that God created his pleasure , and it is not God's Pleasure as an in distinctive feature of himself,
After that you would have to prove that God's Pleasure is part of this creation (not just created), and if you do, you would unwillingly say that Pleasure you mean got XYZ because one of the laws that govern this Creation is "body", and if you say no it is not, then there would be no reason for Jesus to be an Angel one time or a body another time. - as you believe -)

While Jesus, wasn't effective factor in the Creation till born, then the Creation should've been non-existent until he was born.

Easily : Creation and the result of it can't be something not in the essence of it, and can't be but within the full timeline of Creation, because the void of Creation from it, means that the Creation doesn't have a pillar to stand on.

In the beginning was the Word (the Word predates time or creation), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the unique Son of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-3; 14)

For by Him [the Word] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And he is before all things, and by Him all things consist (Colossians 1:16-17).

The Word is Jesus Christ.
 

lifeisgood

New member
And for that We believe, Allah would Judge people according to their governance of Earth (Daily Life), and their Worship of God (Theology).

And for what we Christians believe, God will judge people according to their ACCEPTANCE or REJECTION of God manifest in the flesh, Jesus Christ, and what He did at the Cross of Calvary.
 

Mulla Sadra

Member
In the beginning was the Word (the Word predates time or creation), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the unique Son of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-3; 14)

For by Him [the Word] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And he is before all things, and by Him all things consist (Colossians 1:16-17).

The Word is Jesus Christ.

Is Word created ? or Creator ? and is it now in creation ?
 

Mulla Sadra

Member
And for what we Christians believe, God will judge people according to their ACCEPTANCE or REJECTION of God manifest in the flesh, Jesus Christ, and what He did at the Cross of Calvary.

You know it is absurd, this means that there's no difference between you and a great scientist who made good for humanity by his inventions, and there's no difference between you and your pope, and there's no difference between a killer who "ACCEPTS" - most Italian Mafia did, I am sure they will be in Heaven -, and a peaceful who "ACCEPTS".

This, not just means creation is non-existent (before Christ birth and now, while he's unto God), but means that God is not wise to make all these differences of humans.

it is just absurd and means nothing and got no relation to my or your creation.
 

lifeisgood

New member
You know it is absurd, this means that there's no difference between you and a great scientist who made good for humanity by his inventions, and there's no difference between you and your pope, and there's no difference between a killer who "ACCEPTS" - most Italian Mafia did, I am sure they will be in Heaven -, and a peaceful who "ACCEPTS".

God does not care about my works. He cares about my belief and what is the object of that belief.

This, not just means creation is non-existent (before Christ birth and now, while he's unto God), but means that God is not wise to make all these differences of humans.

Genesis 1:1: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2. Now the earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep. God's Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters. 3. God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made. 4. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness hasn't overcome it.

John 1:1 appears to have a reference to Gen 1:1 in using the phrase"in the beginning", so it is worth thinking of it against that context. In Gen 1, the process of creation was expressed in the form of "God said, ..." This ties in well with the idea of "the word". In Genesis we see that the process of creation was signalled words, and in particular, the words of God. That means that the word of God was there right from the beginning.

John 1:14: And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:17: For the law was given through Moses. Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18. No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

Hebrews 1:1: God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2. has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.

1 John 1:1: That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we saw, and our hands touched, concerning the Word of life 2. (and the life was revealed, and we have seen, and testify, and declare to you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was revealed to us)

John 1:9: The true light that enlightens everyone was coming into the world. 10. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn't recognize him.

Colossians 1:12: giving thanks to the Father, who made us fit to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; 13 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love; 14. in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; 15. who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16. For by him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.

Colossians 1:17: He is before all things, and in him all things are held together. 18. He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

it is just absurd and means nothing and got no relation to my or your creation.

The ONLY reason why you find it absurd is because you reject the Word.
 

Charity

New member
You know it is absurd, this means that there's no difference between you and a great scientist who made good for humanity by his inventions, and there's no difference between you and your pope, and there's no difference between a killer who "ACCEPTS" - most Italian Mafia did, I am sure they will be in Heaven -, and a peaceful who "ACCEPTS".

This, not just means creation is non-existent (before Christ birth and now, while he's unto God), but means that God is not wise to make all these differences of humans.

it is just absurd and means nothing and got no relation to my or your creation.
I think half your scripture is filed in the Christian bible, sons of Abraham threw Sarah an her hand maidan? It's been a nasty family battle for Muslims, an to top it off, juda makes an aliance with Rome to spoil Israel an lost the estate fighting over Jesus! Pushed you back in line again didn't it? Never the less you have made your way up the line again!
It's not a wonder new commanders where elected an the beginning is forced to 2000 years ago! BC to AD, wonder if we are due for another eventful world end!

Can you fill us in on Abrahams wife Sarah being 90 years old when she conceived there son?
The Christians here believe in a virgin conception, giving birth to gods son?
The fights are never ending, the results are, 100 % Roman Catholic
 
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Mulla Sadra

Member
I think half your scripture is filed in the Christian bible, sons of Abraham threw Sarah an her hand maidan? It's been a nasty family battle for Muslims, an to top it off, juda makes an aliance with Rome to spoil Israel an lost the estate fighting over Jesus! Pushed you back in line again didn't it? Never the less you have made your way up the line again!
It's not a wonder new commanders where elected an the beginning is forced to 2000 years ago! BC to AD, wonder if we are due for another eventful world end!

Can you fill us in on Abrahams wife Sarah being 90 years old when she conceived there son?
The Christians here believe in a virgin conception, giving birth to gods son?
The fights are never ending, the results are, 100 % Roman Catholic

Whaaa..... What ?!

This is the third comment you quote me in and I fail to understand :/
 

lifeisgood

New member
Do you know the reason why ?

Because:
1. It refutes atheism, because the universe was created by God.
2. It refutes pantheism (the belief that God is everything and everything is God), for God is transcendent (apart from and independent of the material universe) to that which He created.
3. It refutes polytheism, for one God created all things.
4. It refutes materialism, for matter had a beginning.
5. It refutes dualism, because God was alone when He created.
6. It refutes humanism, because God, not man, is the ultimate reality.
7. It refutes evolutionism, because God created all things.
 

Mulla Sadra

Member
Because:
2. It refutes pantheism (the belief that God is everything and everything is God), for God is transcendent (apart from and independent of the material universe) to that which He created.

Brother, I didn't say what does it refute too,
I know you say it refutes Pantheism, I want you to tell me WHY does it refute Pantheism ?

Or do you believe in it without asking Why ?

7. It refutes evolutionism, because God created all things.

What is the problem of Evolution ?, God can create the universe and give it the the latent power to make evolution later, I mean, just like God created Existence, He created Evolution as a law to drive the universe, and under his flux (Self-flow) he gave the inspiration of such process.

If someone transplant a new cell, does that mean God is not there ?

God is there, it is just that this man used a tool, a lab, cell and the human (things all existed because of God) to make a number two cell, if it means anything, it would mean how much gracious and wise God is.

Evolution used Existence, DNA (Mutations, Genetic Drift, Genetic Recombination ....etc) and nature (Natural Selection), Things all created by God from the beginning (only if they say that the first cell didn't have chromosomes), and, thus, if it means anything God is wise and gracious, and Yes, God is able to create the world as in "He says Be, so it is", but he wanted a lesson for Humans (to be patient) and a law for this existence, What is the meaning of a world not able to develop ? if it can't develop by its nature, don't think we can, as Mulla Sadra says : "Everything in the order of nature, including celestial spheres, undergoes substantial change and transformation as a result of the self-flow (fayd) and penetration of being (sarayan al-wujud) which gives every concrete individual entity its share of being."

It would be of blindness not to note development during this earth lifetime, and is pure frowning at God's wisdom of dissimilarity.

I think that Evolution shows how gracious God is, it is greater than creating everything at one time, and more lesson to us, which all means how Wise God is.

( I don't know what is your exact problem with the whole idea of Evolution , You can leave answering this, because the Hell and Heaven subject is ours for now ).
 
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lifeisgood

New member
Brother, I didn't say what does it refute too,
I know you say it refutes Pantheism, I want you to tell me WHY does it refute Pantheism ?

Or do you believe in it without asking Why ?

For me, because God, relates with His Creation in many and varied ways, especially through His Son. My God is a living God and the gods of pantheism are dead.

There has never been any gods of the pantheistic flavor that has ever communicated or done anything for Creation; or do you know of any?

What is the problem of Evolution ?, God can create the universe and give it the the latent power to make evolution later, I mean, just like God created Existence, He created Evolution as a law to drive the universe, and under his flux (Self-flow) he gave the inspiration of such process.

If someone transplant a new cell, does that mean God is not there ?

God is there, it is just that this man used a tool, a lab, cell and the human (things all existed because of God) to make a number two cell, if it means anything, it would mean how much gracious and wise God is.

Evolution used Existence, DNA (Mutations, Genetic Drift, Genetic Recombination ....etc) and nature (Natural Selection), Things all created by God from the beginning (only if they say that the first cell didn't have chromosomes), and, thus, if it means anything God is wise and gracious, and Yes, God is able to create the world as in "He says Be, so it is", but he wanted a lesson for Humans (to be patient) and a law for this existence, What is the meaning of a world not able to develop ? if it can't develop by its nature, don't think we can, as Mulla Sadra says : "Everything in the order of nature, including celestial spheres, undergoes substantial change and transformation as a result of the self-flow (fayd) and penetration of being (sarayan al-wujud) which gives every concrete individual entity its share of being."

It would be of blindness not to note development during this earth lifetime, and is pure frowning at God's wisdom of dissimilarity.

I think that Evolution shows how gracious God is, it is greater than creating everything at one time, and more lesson to us, which all means how Wise God is.

( I don't know what is your exact problem with the whole idea of Evolution , You can leave answering this, because the Hell and Heaven subject is ours for now ).

God is outside of Creation. My Bible says that God created Creation out of nothing. He spoke and it came to being. My God is not in the business of evolution.

Well, could you show me a half-ape / half-man in the process of evolution almost a man? If evolution was true, then there would have to be many fossils of mid-point evolution. I have not heard of these mid-transition (one animal going from being a whale, fins becoming legs, and finally a whale becoming a horse, for example. Do evolutionists have definite fossils of such a transitional animal?)

Genesis 5:2 "Male and female created He them." Created as two adults. No evolutionary process in God's creation.

God is not in the cell. God established laws that makes the cells work the way they do. It is not that God is inside that cell, machinating the ways the cell is to go.

No, God is NOT inside His creation. Creation could not contain My God, in all His glory (1 Kings 8:27; 2 Chronicles 2:6).

"The heaven of heavens cannot contain Him, and yet He condescends to find a house within our hearts!" —Spurgeon
 

Mulla Sadra

Member
Well, could you show me a half-ape / half-man in the process of evolution almost a man? If evolution was true, then there would have to be many fossils of mid-point evolution. I have not heard of these mid-transition (one animal going from being a whale, fins becoming legs, and finally a whale becoming a horse, for example. Do evolutionists have definite fossils of such a transitional animal?)


I wasn't asking for your (Biologist) opinion of Evolution, I was asking why your belief doesn't permit you to accept evolution.

Genesis 5:2 "Male and female created He them." Created as two adults. No evolutionary process in God's creation.

I don't know from where did you conclude "No evolutionary process in God's creation", if God says that, I am surely out of such a cult, because he doesn't know anything in the universe.

"What is [the matter] with you that you do not attribute to Allah [due] grandeur while He has created you in stages ?" [71:14].

Anyways, I don't care about this as much as I care for the Pantheism thing, so you are not obliged to answer.
 
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