ECT Nature of the believer's freedom

[nikolai_42]

Question : Is the believer's freedom a derivative freedom or an absolute freedom?

Clarification : Derivative in the sense that there is still a subordination of some sort such that there is constraint that the believer is constantly aware of. Not the constraint of the sinful proclivities reigning over him, of course, but a constraint nonetheless.

Relevant scriptures : Just to start, Jesus said this :

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 8:36

The word for "indeed" is apparently that which means "truly" or "in reality". It almost seems (my interpretation) like one could be seen to be walking in the shadow of sin for one's life (being dead in trespasses and sin) and not realizing the shadow that envelops him. But when that man is freed from sin (in the sense of John 8:36) he finds himself liberated from bondage - and it seems (as many could attest) that there is nothing holding him back. He is utterly free and is ready to "go and sin no more". Of course, that is not the experience over time. We sin need to repent - but does that negate the freedom experienced?

Now, to Paul. He says this :

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God
Romans 1:1

Here Paul is really (if I am understanding it correctly) that he is a slave of Jesus Christ. Christ is his master. This is in contrast with the understanding of freedom that many experience when liberated from sin and death.

So is the reality that as long as the believer is in this body that he should be experiencing - in essence - a derivative freedom? One that is not originally his own (i.e. that he is not free to do what he will in some sense)? The answer seems simple, but what does that say of the liberty one finds when one is made alive in Christ? And more directly - what the believer's experience of liberty should be? Is it a tempered liberty (liberty but being under constraint as one who is serving another as a slave) or is it an absolute liberty (though he be in Christ, there should be a sense of absolute freedom without any sort of immediate restraint)?

Less a theological question than a practical one, I think.

 

[DAN P]

Question : Is the believer's freedom a derivative freedom or an absolute freedom?

Clarification : Derivative in the sense that there is still a subordination of some sort such that there is constraint that the believer is constantly aware of. Not the constraint of the sinful proclivities reigning over him, of course, but a constraint nonetheless.

Relevant scriptures : Just to start, Jesus said this :

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 8:36

The word for "indeed" is apparently that which means "truly" or "in reality". It almost seems (my interpretation) like one could be seen to be walking in the shadow of sin for one's life (being dead in trespasses and sin) and not realizing the shadow that envelops him. But when that man is freed from sin (in the sense of John 8:36) he finds himself liberated from bondage - and it seems (as many could attest) that there is nothing holding him back. He is utterly free and is ready to "go and sin no more". Of course, that is not the experience over time. We sin need to repent - but does that negate the freedom experienced?

Now, to Paul. He says this :

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God
Romans 1:1

Here Paul is really (if I am understanding it correctly) that he is a slave of Jesus Christ. Christ is his master. This is in contrast with the understanding of freedom that many experience when liberated from sin and death.

So is the reality that as long as the believer is in this body that he should be experiencing - in essence - a derivative freedom? One that is not originally his own (i.e. that he is not free to do what he will in some sense)? The answer seems simple, but what does that say of the liberty one finds when one is made alive in Christ? And more directly - what the believer's experience of liberty should be? Is it a tempered liberty (liberty but being under constraint as one who is serving another as a slave) or is it an absolute liberty (though he be in Christ, there should be a sense of absolute freedom without any sort of immediate restraint)?

Less a theological question than a practical one, I think.

Hi nand Paul was a SLAVE / DOULOS to Christ !!

All are either a SLAVE to Sin OR a SLAVE /DOULOS to God and no othet choice !!

Also in Rom 1:1 , Paul was a slave and LIMITED to only preach God's Gospel !!

dan p

 

[glorydaz]

Here Paul is really (if I am understanding it correctly) that he is a slave of Jesus Christ. Christ is his master. This is in contrast with the understanding of freedom that many experience when liberated from sin and death.

So is the reality that as long as the believer is in this body that he should be experiencing - in essence - a derivative freedom? One that is not originally his own (i.e. that he is not free to do what he will in some sense)? The answer seems simple, but what does that say of the liberty one finds when one is made alive in Christ? And more directly - what the believer's experience of liberty should be? Is it a tempered liberty (liberty but being under constraint as one who is serving another as a slave) or is it an absolute liberty (though he be in Christ, there should be a sense of absolute freedom without any sort of immediate restraint)?

Less a theological question than a practical one, I think.

I like your mention of this verse as our being made free from the law of sin and death. I think the part you are talking about is speaking of the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus". And that is certainly worthy of discussion.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.​

 

[jamie]

We were bought at a price.

"Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price, therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s."
(1 Corinthians 6:19-20)

Our life does not belong to us, we are not our own.

 

[nikolai_42]

I like your mention of this verse as our being made free from the law of sin and death. I think the part you are talking about is speaking of the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus". And that is certainly worthy of discussion.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.​

In trying to frame the question, part of my thought was the seeming ecstasy that accompanies salvation for many people. It is that so-called mountaintop experience in which they seem to be liberated and are free in an absolute sense. But as time goes on, of course, that freedom disappears from view. What they are aware of varies from person to person. But Paul - even in the midst of all sorts of external troubles, trials and persecutions - finds freedom in his submission. The sense of all that is coming upon him is that it is too much to bear naturally. He gives no hint of the ecstasy of salvation, but rather the (naturally) inexplicable provision he has in the midst of the worst of all that the world, the flesh and the devil can throw at him. He even seeks to be delivered of it but is told that the trials are so that the power of Christ may more fully rest upon him (2 Cor 12:9). The only place that comes to mind (offhand) that seems to imply an unsurpassable glory in Paul is in Romans 8:21. But even that "glorious liberty" is yet future.

I sense that Paul was blessed with constant trial and humility - and never permitted to have rest from that - so that his gaze was always fixed on the Lord and His hand rather than resting in the bliss that could accompany being delivered from death to life. And in that context, his freedom would (I think) never seem fully accomplished and as a result his only choice with every "next step" was to wherever the Spirit of the Lord led him (or prevented him). And comparing that with a predominating message in the churches today - which amounts to follow your (spiritual!) bliss - I wonder if we really understand (as a whole) what that liberty really is.

 

[glorydaz]

In trying to frame the question, part of my thought was the seeming ecstasy that accompanies salvation for many people. It is that so-called mountaintop experience in which they seem to be liberated and are free in an absolute sense. But as time goes on, of course, that freedom disappears from view. What they are aware of varies from person to person. But Paul - even in the midst of all sorts of external troubles, trials and persecutions - finds freedom in his submission. The sense of all that is coming upon him is that it is too much to bear naturally. He gives no hint of the ecstasy of salvation, but rather the (naturally) inexplicable provision he has in the midst of the worst of all that the world, the flesh and the devil can throw at him. He even seeks to be delivered of it but is told that the trials are so that the power of Christ may more fully rest upon him (2 Cor 12:9). The only place that comes to mind (offhand) that seems to imply an unsurpassable glory in Paul is in Romans 8:21. But even that "glorious liberty" is yet future.

I sense that Paul was blessed with constant trial and humility - and never permitted to have rest from that - so that his gaze was always fixed on the Lord and His hand rather than resting in the bliss that could accompany being delivered from death to life. And in that context, his freedom would (I think) never seem fully accomplished and as a result his only choice with every "next step" was to wherever the Spirit of the Lord led him (or prevented him). And comparing that with a predominating message in the churches today - which amounts to follow your (spiritual!) bliss - I wonder if we really understand (as a whole) what that liberty really is.

Good points. Perhaps we can only learn it (or recognize it) over time...part of that growing in grace.

Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;​

I think maybe we all experience this in different ways. Not only not having to be ridden with guilt over every little failing, which has been a huge blessing to me in my life, but to be able to relinquish every fear. Worry and fear of the future, with all it's horrible possibilities, could very easily keep me in bondage. It's been a matter of remembering ....always remembering that the Lord has taken me through all those things I feared (most not even having to be faced by me).