ECT Name a church unlike the one spoken of here . . .

[Cross Reference]

I suppose it's down to the individual. If one is truly born again and is undergoing sanctification by The Holy Spirit then one will not miss out on God's best for them.

That's the plan. But the teaching of today don't take one home, in that regard. Sanctification is a worn out word no one ever believes believes for anyway.

We cannot live another's life for them. Yes, error must be addressed and corrected but we must all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

Here is where the rubber means the road to our understanding: This is salvation succinctly laid out by Jesus Christ no one seems to want to pay attention to because it will require the whole of one's life with the added well taught support in resisting such an idea by the teaching of the distortion of the facts, i.e., "Jesus did it all therefore I don't have to" and if one presses in to follow even what He says, one will be accused of "works salvation" or processing a holier than thou disposition.

"And this is life eternal, that they might [intimately] know You the only true God [and your ways], and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3 (KJV)

Where is this taught in todays church assemblies when explaining what it is to be born again:

My paraphrase is below which lends itself to the understanding of what God is after having redeemed mankind restoring him to access to Himself, Adam forfeited.

". . . as many as receive His indwelling life, those born again, to them He gives power to become the sons of God by adoption, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12 (KJV) per John 3:3-5.

Lets continue to discuss to make sure we understand what the other is saying because quite obviously, our new birth from above is not about redemption or anything to do with being saved from hell/damnation but rather salvation unto something-Someone much higher than we can imagine. Now, is that not the good news of the gospel?

 

[jamie]

Born again?

Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6 NKJV)

Those born of flesh bleed, those born of the Spirit don't bleed.

Jesus explained, "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8 NKJV)

Do we see the wind or do we just see the effects of the wind? Wind is invisible and so is everyone born of the Spirit.

 

[Cross Reference]

Born again?

Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6 NKJV)

Those born of flesh bleed, those born of the Spirit don't bleed.

Jesus explained, "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8 NKJV)

Do we see the wind or do we just see the effects of the wind? Wind is invisible and so is everyone born of the Spirit.

OK, You have convinced me to ask: What cult persuasion are you?

 

[revpete]

That's the plan. But the teaching of today don't take one home, in that regard. Sanctification is a worn out word no one ever believes believes for anyway.



Here is where the rubber means the road to our understanding: This is salvation succinctly laid out by Jesus Christ no one seems to want to pay attention to because it will require the whole of one's life with the added well taught support in resisting such an idea by the teaching of the distortion of the facts, i.e., "Jesus did it all therefore I don't have to" and if one presses in to follow even what He says, one will be accused of "works salvation" or processing a holier than thou disposition.

"And this is life eternal, that they might [intimately] know You the only true God [and your ways], and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3 (KJV)

Where is this taught in todays church assemblies when explaining what it is to be born again:

My paraphrase is below which lends itself to the understanding of what God is after having redeemed mankind restoring him to access to Himself, Adam forfeited.

". . . as many as receive His indwelling life, those born again, to them He gives power to become the sons of God by adoption, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12 (KJV) per John 3:3-5.

Lets continue to discuss to make sure we understand what the other is saying because quite obviously, our new birth from above is not about redemption or anything to do with being saved from hell/damnation but rather salvation unto something-Someone much higher than we can imagine. Now, is that not the good news of the gospel?

As redemption means to be bought back, we were not redeemed with corruptable but with the precious blood of Christ. We were bought with a price and we are not our own. Redemption and the new birth are inextricably intertwined. In other words one cannot be redeemed without being born again and vice versa. There is an old book by someone called Best that explains this so much better than me; it's been over 25yrs since I read it but I still remember it with fondness.

Pete

 

[Cross Reference]

That's the plan. But the teaching of today don't take one home, in that regard. Sanctification is a worn out word no one ever believes believes for anyway.



Here is where the rubber means the road to our understanding: This is salvation succinctly laid out by Jesus Christ no one seems to want to pay attention to because it will require the whole of one's life with the added well taught support in resisting such an idea by the teaching of the distortion of the facts, i.e., "Jesus did it all therefore I don't have to" and if one presses in to follow even what He says, one will be accused of "works salvation" or processing a holier than thou disposition.

"And this is life eternal, that they might [intimately] know You the only true God [and your ways], and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3 (KJV)

Where is this taught in todays church assemblies when explaining what it is to be born again:

My paraphrase is below which lends itself to the understanding of what God is after having redeemed mankind restoring him to access to Himself, Adam forfeited.

". . . as many as receive His indwelling life, those born again, to them He gives power to become the sons of God by adoption, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12 (KJV) per John 3:3-5.

As redemption means to be bought back, we were not redeemed with corruptable but with the precious blood of Christ. We were bought with a price and we are not our own. Redemption and the new birth are inextricably intertwined. In other words one cannot be redeemed without being born again and vice versa. There is an old book by someone called Best that explains this so much better than me; it's been over 25yrs since I read it but I still remember it with fondness.

Pete ��

In yellow: That is correct.

However, Redemption is a fact by the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Being "intertwined" with what is discipleship, the new birth from above is something Jesus imparts to those willing to pay the price. God is looking to have sons and not lifelong babies "brought unto glory", per Heb 2:10 KJV.

"Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?" Luke 14:27-28 (ESV)

Certainly Jesus is NOT referring to an unbeliever or salvation as you have you be.

 

[DAN P]

Every one who is SAVED and has not just made an empty profession of faith is a disciple in my experience. I know what you're getting at though.

What you said about the jailer could also be said of the Ethiopian eunuch and the three thousand on the day of Pentecost. If we start questioning scripture when the context is clear we go down a road that could lead to error and worse.

The eleven were born again or received new life and power from on high on the day of Pentecost. That is open to debate though.

Pete

Hi and in Luke 22:32 Peter was CONVERTED , not Born again so how do you two EXPLAIN that !!

So how was Peter and the 11 saved ??

dan p

 

[DAN P]

I suppose it's down to the individual. If one is truly born again and is undergoing sanctification by The Holy Spirit then one will not miss out on God's best for them.

We cannot live another's life for them. Yes, error must be addressed and corrected but we must all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

Pete ��

Hi and , so explain HOW you were Born again today in the Dispensation of Grace !!

Give a verse as proof , IF you can ??

So , which AGE are we in , speaking to you two ??

dan p

 

[revpete]

Hi and , so explain HOW you were Born again today in the Dispensation of Grace !!

Give a verse as proof , IF you can ??

So , which AGE are we in , speaking to you two ??

dan p

Hi Dan,

You know very well. The dispensation of grace means something entirely different to you because you see no need of repentance and that's heresy as one day you will find out unless the goodness of God leads you to true repentance.

Pete

 

[revpete]

Hi and in Luke 22:32 Peter was CONVERTED , not Born again so how do you two EXPLAIN that !!

So how was Peter and the 11 saved ??

dan p

Peter along with the others received power and new life when The Church was born on The Day of Pentecost!

Pete .

 

[Cross Reference]

Peter along with the others received power and new life when The Church was born on The Day of Pentecost!

Pete .

Pete, why don't you accept Jn 20:22 KJV as being the time when the Disciples were born again?

 

[john w]

The Biblical order is sonship, (justification), then service(sanctification). Those who reverse this biblical order are putting the proverbial "horse before the cart", and are confusing service to our Father as sons, with service to become sons. Those who make statements such as "make Jesus Lord of your life", "turn your life over to Jesus, give your life to Jesus", despite the fact that the heart of the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ giving his life for us, and has nothing to do with us giving him anything, make this deadly error. The LORD God needs nothing from us(Acts 17:25 KJV, Job 35:7 KJV, Haggai 2:8 KJV) and is not, and will not, condition/make "giving our life to Him"(service) the basis for His acceptance of us. Again, The LORD God has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ's voluntary sacrificial offering of his life, not ours, as propitiatory(satisfactory). All service is a privileged responsibility given as a gift to those who have been declared adopted sons by faith in the finished and faithful work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Holy means "sanctified"=set aside for God's purpose. But God only uses those instruments that are His sons, and "saints" describes those who are already justified=His="in Christ". And the LORD God would have us know this biblical order in Corinthians-Paul calls the Corinthians, the most carnal, dirty, lustful group of believer saints.

Consider the book of Galatians, which is a stern, severe, corrective, and solemn message-there is no word of commendation, praise or thanksgiving. Paul's "heart" is laid bare here as the letters are peppered with deep emotion and strong feeling. This is his "fighting epistle"-he is on a war path, with no tolerance for legalism! It is the declaration of freedom from all types of legalism. While Romans was from Paul's "head" with its lawyerly, systematic treatise on justification by faith, and faith alone, Galatians was from his heart. It is the boldest, strongest declaration and defense(as is this post) of the doctrine of justification by faith in and out of the scriptures, and, as such, is God's polemic on behalf of the most vital truth of the Christian truth against any attack. That is, not only is a sinner saved by grace through faith(not commitment), but the saved sinner lives by grace(sanctification=commitment=the Christian "walk"). But we must not confuse justification(the declaration of righteousness) with sanctification! Yes, we are saved from the penalty of sin(justification), the power of sin(sanctification), and the presence of sin(glorification), but these are not equivalent biblical doctrines, and people are perverting the gospel of Christ by putting the proverbial "horse before the cart", i. e., they are placing sanctification=commitment=give your life to Christ in the wrong biblical order-as a "prerequisite" to justification, or as the means to justification. No, No, No!! Interestingly enough, Paul had nothing but condemnation for the Galatians, and yet, for the Corinthians, as mentioned, the most carnal bunch of Christians, who were engaged in adultery, drunkenness, gluttony.....he had words of encouragement, and never questioned their justification, as witnessed by his continual reference to them as "in Christ", and as saints. This should be an object lesson for us all, and should cause each of us to cry with joy and praise for the truly amazing grace bestowed upon each one of us whereby we are made "...accepted in the beloved...."(Ephesians 1:6 KJV) by this great God of ours(Psalms 145:3 KJV). And this should be our motivation to "...walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called...."(Ephesians 4:1 KJV), "..walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God...."(Colossians 1:10 KJV), "...walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory...."(1 Thessalonians 2:12 KJV), "..walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more...."(1 Thessalonians 4:1 KJV),."...as children of light...."(Ephesians 5:8 KJV), which is our "....reasonable service...."(Romans 12:1 KJV) as sons.

No one would disagree with anyone who would say we should "live a holy life before God"(sanctification), but not as a basis for our acceptance by Him-not as our basis for justification! We live a holy life because we are sons, because we are justified, because we are saved, not to become sons, not to be justified, not to be saved.

No one has,or can, truly(and this is a subjective criteria)repent(ed) of all their sins", no one has, or can "surrender 100% to the Lordship of Jesus Christ"(and this is a subjective criteria), no one has "put away the things or our previous life and life style", no one has, or can, "live(d) for God 100%", for all have been pronounced "guilty"(Romans 3:19 KJV ), and "...come short of the glory of God...."(Romans 3:23 KJV), in not only what we do, but what we do not do, and how we think. Sin is not just "wrong doing", it is "wrong being". Nor will the LORD God accept any offering these acts of service as a basis for justification, but will only accept the death by blood offering of the Lord Jesus Christ's spotless life, not ours, and his resurrection, as a basis for our justification as sons.

Phrases such as "giving one's life, heart("commitment") is not the proper object of faith.. Again, salvation has nothing to do with "giving" God anything! Salvation is not my gift to God. Rather, it is the issue of receiving a gift from God. The issue in salvation is not what we give to Him, but what He gives to us-eternal life. The issue is not giving your life to Christ-it is Christ giving up His life as an atoning sacrifice for you. Salvation has nothing to do with "giving up your life", "surrendering your life".........-It was the Lord Jesus Christ who gave up His life and made full surrender when he yielded His life at Calvary. Again, when a lost person is told to "surrender his life, give his life to Jesus, commit his life to Jesus.........", this wrongly presumes that a person has something worthy to give(whether that is time, money, service......), and confuses service, with salvation. It requires a "commitment" to serve Christ "up front" before salvation, and it presents a work-based performance system as a basis for acceptance by God.

Phrases such as "Give your heart to Jesus" may sound very romantic, but we are not saved by "falling in love with Jesus"-we are saved by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work at Calvary and His resurrection 3 days later. Giving one's heart, life(commitment) is an activity of service to the Lord, and and, as such, service and dedication is something the LORD appeals to believers to do(Romans 12:1-2 KJV, for eg.). But this is service from those who have become his own. The biblical order is sonship, then service. Service, then sonship is a work-based performance system, as typified by the Roman Catholic Church, and "perverts the gospel of Christ"(Gal. 1:7 KJV). Statements such as " ...I believe salvation is a journey; it is not a moment in time" reflect this mindset and false doctrine. Sanctification is a journey, but justification is not. Justification is a "moment in time" declaration of righteousness based on the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Practically every false doctrine is a result of "getting things out of order", as I mentioned previously. The divine order is justification, then change/sanctification, not change/sanctification and then salvation. Notice in Romans 5:6, God justifies the ungodly-no "fixing yourself up first", no "stop sinning first".......... Notice in Romans 5:8 KJV, "while we were yet SINNERS(emphasis mine), Christ died for us". Again, those who make statements such as "make Jesus Lord of your life", "turn your life over to Jesus, give your life to Jesus, commit your life to Jesus"(despite the fact that the heart of the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ giving his life for us, and has nothing to do with us giving him anything!) make this deadly error-confusing sancification with justification.

Many error by thinking that "stop sinning"=acts of commission "solves the sin issue". You could "stop sinning" all the rest of your life(which is a self righteous pride(that no one can do), and that would not allow you in the presence of our Holy God. Sin is not just wrong acts, it is "not doing what you are suppose to do", and it is "wrong thinking"-thus,"all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". The LORD God has pronounced all of us guilty, with no exceptions(read Romans again)-guilty of not only what we do, but guilty of falling short of his absolute standard, The Lord Jesus Christ="who he wants us to be." The biblical requirement is not just forgiveness=a pardon for an offence, but justification=a legal declaration of righteousness, and includes not just "stop doing what is wrong", but also doing everything that is right in thought, word, and deed(had any evil thoughts today? I have). And this is "the righteousness of God in him"(2 Cor. 5:21 KJV), the "righteousness of God"(Romans 1:17 KJV), " righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe"(Romans 3:22 KJV), "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith"(Philippians 3:9 KJV).



Who ever heard of "hiring your boss?"=Lordship Salvation

The Lord Jesus Christ is Lord, in the sense here of master, owner, controller, "boss", not because we "make" him such, but because God the Father gave him this position:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God(my emphasis) hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ(my emphasis)." Acts 2:36 KJV

Whether we believe it or not, does not change this fact.




I nominate this brilliant post, as POTYBAL(Post Of The Year By A Landslide).


Let the applause commence....

saint John W-memorize "saint"

 

[Cross Reference]

The Biblical order is sonship, (justification), then service(sanctification). Those who reverse this biblical order are putting the proverbial "horse before the cart", and are confusing service to our Father as sons, with service to become sons. Those who make statements such as "make Jesus Lord of your life", "turn your life over to Jesus, give your life to Jesus", despite the fact that the heart of the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ giving his life for us, and has nothing to do with us giving him anything, make this deadly error. The LORD God needs nothing from us(Acts 17:25 KJV, Job 35:7 KJV, Haggai 2:8 KJV) and is not, and will not, condition/make "giving our life to Him"(service) the basis for His acceptance of us.

How 'bout the notion that God wants our lives and the Jesus died to make the way possible for Him to have them?? Ever think of it that way?

 

[john w]

How 'bout the notion that God wants our lives and the Jesus died to make the way possible for Him to have them?? Ever think of it that way?

That is sanctification, expected service as already adopted sons, i.e., "wants our lives," for service, the end game, so to speak? For His glory, not ours.


I take it you will not nominate my brilliant, humble post, as POTYBAL?

 

[revpete]

Pete, why don't you accept Jn 20:22 KJV as being the time when the Disciples were born again?

Because a person is born again when The Holy Spirit makes them a new creation.

22. Receive ye the Holy Ghost. This was a preliminary, partial fulfillment of the promise of chs. 14:16-18; 16:7-15. The full outpouring came some 50 days later at Pentecost (Acts 2). “Ghost” should be rendered “Spirit”.

That's why. However, I do see why you would say that.

Blessings: Pete

 

[Cross Reference]

Because a person is born again when The Holy Spirit makes them a new creation.

Thank you Pete.However John 20:22 was the first time anyone was ever actually born again, Jesus imputing His life by the action of the Holy Spirit.. That is all I am offering up here to be understood.

Think about this. At this point in time in Jn 20:22, salvation was NOT an issue or the issue. Why not?

 

[Cross Reference]

That is sanctification, expected service as already adopted sons, i.e., "wants our lives," for service, the end game, so to speak? For His glory, not ours.


I take it you will not nominate my brilliant, humble post, as POTYBAL?

It is incomplete as well as inaccurate because you have it as salvation from hell being the only objective when it wasn't. Man's salvation from hell is incidental what God was after when He created man.

Here's a clue: Heb 2:10 KJV. Ask yourself why did God have to do that with Jesus?

 

[DAN P]

Pete, why don't you accept Jn 20:22 KJV as being the time when the Disciples were born again?

Hi I will tell you why John 20:22 can not be except today !!

In verse 22 , Jesus says the following , Receive ye the Holy Spirit , reads the KJV !!

What you FAIL to see is the following and this is what you all FAIL tomse and it reads really like this , RECEIVE YE HOLY SPIRIT !!

Notice the the Greek Article " THE " is NOT in the Greek text and all can check and see !!

When the Greek Article is used like this " RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT " it is speaks to the Indwelling HOL,Y SPIRIT !!

When the Greek Article is written like this " RECEIVE HOLY SPIRIT " it is speaking that the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT is given to to the diciples in John 20:22 to REMIT SINS as recorded in verse 23 !!

So when did you last say to anyone I CR can REMIT SINS ??

Both of you all need to understand the bible !!

dan p

 

[DAN P]

That is sanctification, expected service as already adopted sons, i.e., "wants our lives," for service, the end game, so to speak? For His glory, not ours.


I take it you will not nominate my brilliant, humble post, as POTYBAL?

Hi and he can not nominate you , as you are not KJV-ONLY and in early Acts , especially Acte 7:39 trumps the Indwelling of thr Holy Spirit was not done and books have been written on the IMPORTANCE of the Greek Article " the " and Pentecostals have no clue !!

dan p

 

[john w]

It is incomplete as well as inaccurate because you have it as salvation from hell being the only objective when it wasn't. Man's salvation from hell is incidental what God was after when He created man.

Here's a clue: Heb 2:10 KJV. Ask yourself why did God have to do that with Jesus?

Thanks for all the scripture, and opinion, Oprah. Weighty.

"because you have it as salvation from hell being the only objective when it wasn't"-you

Made up, Hop Sing-I never said that, so knock it off. For years, on this site, while you were still pulling up your bib, and drooling on your bunny shirt, I have argued, at length, that the ultimate end game/goal of the LORD God, is bringing glory to Himself, one manifestation of that glory, including the Lord Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, being installed, as King, in Jerusalem, for what He did 2000+ years ago, with the nation of Israel as His ministers, priests, witnesses......, ruling with a rod of iron.....the salvation, and sanctification of man, merely being another means of bringing glory to Him.

And that is one of the features of the dispensational approach to understanding "the volume of the book"-for His glory.

Here is a clue: Get saved.

So there.

 

[john w]

Hi and he can not nominate you , as you are not KJV-ONLY and in early Acts , especially Acte 7:39 trumps the Indwelling of thr Holy Spirit was not done and books have been written on the IMPORTANCE of the Greek Article " the " and Pentecostals have no clue !!

dan p

Thanks, P of D. I would agree with your brilliant assessment of my brilliance, but I am too humble.