Morals Are Completely Subjective

[Nineveh]

Could you clarify this? I'll honestly try to answer it.

C'mon o'critical of intellect, how many times do I have to ask the same question?

"Morals are completely subjective", to who? Individuals? Nations? Who?

How exactly is a standard higher than another?

A standard that is absolute on questions like, "Is it absolutely wrong to rape a comatose 3 year old 100% of the time." with an asnwer of "yes." That far superior than, "for me, yes, but..."

As I said before, in my opinion,...

Who cares?

However, my morals are based on my own best interest. This is true for everyone, but no one admits it.

I gave up my iffy morality a long time ago for a higher standard. I believe you can only speak for yourself, because you can't speak for the freak that raped a comatose 3 year old, or his victims.

It pains me greatly when I learn of someone being raped. Therefore, in order to avoid that pain, I do what I can to support the fight against rape.

Awww poor youuuuuuu. Got any room in there for the victims?

 

[SUTG]

I gave up my iffy morality a long time ago for a higher standard.

How do you determine whether a given action is moral or immoral?

 

[drbrumley]

This thread is incredible. So, rape of a 8 YO boy by a homo is ok in a different society, different time frame? Help me out here.

 

[Balder]

To the extent that morals are a question of values -- of how we think and relate and interact with each other -- then of course morals are completely subjective. For objective, insentient things like rocks, there is no question of morality. Morality is fully a product and a concern of consciousness and conscious beings: it is a subjective phenomenon.

Being subjective does not disqualify morality from having validity. To think so is to buy into a materialist paradigm, which only values (the myth of) total objectivity.

 

[Freedomcry]

This thread is incredible. So, rape of a 8 YO boy by a homo is ok in a different society, different time frame? Help me out here.

You are asking people of this society - of this time frame - if rape from another time and place is ok. Ethnocentrism is inescapable. So therefore I am against all rape.

If a culture deems a rape a ok, then that culture deems a rape as ok.

For those wondering what ethnocentrism is (big word, I know):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocentrism

 

[drbrumley]

If a culture deems a rape a ok, then that culture deems a rape as ok.

And why is that?

 

[Nineveh]

How do you determine whether a given action is moral or immoral?

I go to the Higher Authority. You?

 

[SUTG]

This thread is incredible. So, rape of a 8 YO boy by a homo is ok in a different society, different time frame? Help me out here.

Why do you think the rape of an 8 YO boy by a homo is not OK?

 

[SUTG]

I go to the Higher Authority. You?

Care to flesh this out with an example? How do you "go to the Higher Authority"?

 

[Nineveh]

You are asking people of this society - of this time frame - if rape from another time and place is ok. Ethnocentrism is inescapable. So therefore I am against all rape.

So basically, the only reason you are against it is because someone somewhere decided for you it was illegal. If it weren't illegal, you would no longer be "pained" by the act?

 

[Nineveh]

Care to flesh this out with an example? How do you "go to the Higher Authority"?

Oops, you forgot to answer, it's your turn

 

[SUTG]

Oops, you forgot to answer, it's your turn

Well, you haven't really answered very clearly.

How do I decide whether or not something is moral? Usually, I figure it out on my own using my reasoning abilities. Of course, this is whithin the context of me being raised in our culture, etc, etc. Alot of times it is pretty easy for me and i don't need to think about it too much. But, I can come up with some tough cases to consider.

 

[Freedomcry]

C'mon o'critical of intellect, how many times do I have to ask the same question?

"Morals are completely subjective", to who? Individuals? Nations? Who?

Morals are completely subjected to the entity which maintains them. Obvious example: Humans. Nations? Maybe. I view a nation as a macroscopic entity. So yes, collectively a nation can have morals.

A standard that is absolute on questions like, "Is it absolutely wrong to rape a comatose 3 year old 100% of the time." with an asnwer of "yes." That far superior than, "for me, yes, but..."

You haven't provided any metric for superiority.

I gave up my iffy morality a long time ago for a higher standard.

Yet you used your own morals to judge whether or not this "higher standard" was acceptable to you.

Awww poor youuuuuuu. Got any room in there for the victims?

Have you ever questioned WHY you find rape wrong? After you come up with an answer, then ask your self why you hold that answer to by true. After that answer, ask your self why you find that answer to be true.

After you've dug down deep enough you'll find that all of your morals are in place for you to avoid pain and gain pleasure. This is the foundation of human dynamics.

If you choose to be altruistic, you choose so in order to avoid pain and gain pleasure.

 

[Freedomcry]

So basically, the only reason you are against it is because someone somewhere decided for you it was illegal. If it weren't illegal, you would no longer be "pained" by the act?

It's not a matter of legality. It's a matter of social conditioning.

 

[Balder]

I find Nineveh's approach to morality be problematic, but it is not as flimsy as the position which says there is absolutely no basis at all for morality besides arbitrary social conditioning. That is really a morally bankrupt position.

 

[Nineveh]

Morals are completely subject to the entity which maintains them. Obviously example: Humans. Nations? Maybe. I view a nation as a macroscopic entity. So yes, collectively a nation can have morals.

Thank you for answering.

You haven't provided any metric for superiority.

Sure I have. It's absolutely wrong to rape a 3 year old comatose girl. You can't say that, because morality is completely subjective.

Yet you used your own morals to judge whether or not this "higher standard" was acceptable to you.

I compared the two and found mine lacking. When I couldn't say raping a 3 year old comatose girl was absolutely wrong because I thought morals were completely subjective, it made me sick and I swapped them for a set that could say that.

Have you ever questioned WHY you find rape wrong? After you come up with an answer, then ask your self why you hold that answer to by true. After that answer, ask your self why you find that answer to be true.

Because stealing is also wrong. Taking something that doesn't belong to you is always wrong. Rape can not be repaid.

After you've dug down deep enough you'll find that all of your morals are in place for you to avoid pain and gain pleasure. This is the foundation of human dynamics.

Actually, I simply find justice nicer than not being able to say raping a 3 year old comatose girl is always wrong.

If you choose to be altruistic, you choose so in order to avoid pain and gain pleasure.

Wow, has the idea of putting others before yourself ever crossed your mind?

 

[Nineveh]

How do I decide whether or not something is moral? Usually, I figure it out on my own using my reasoning abilities. Of course, this is whithin the context of me being raised in our culture, etc, etc. Alot of times it is pretty easy for me and i don't need to think about it too much. But, I can come up with some tough cases to consider.

"this is whithin the context of me being raised in our culture"

So, in another time or place raping a 3 year old comatose girl might be ok?

Care to flesh this out with an example? How do you "go to the Higher Authority"?

I appeal to the Law of the Creator. You can find this in Exodus.

 

[Nineveh]

It's not a matter of legality. It's a matter of social conditioning.

Ok, so replace "legal" with "social conditioning" and answer the question.

 

[Freedomcry]

I find Nineveh's approach to morality be problematic, but it is not as flimsy as the position which says there is absolutely no basis at all for morality besides arbitrary social conditioning. That is really a morally bankrupt position.

Doctrines of humanity and morality are the result of man doubting his instincts.

 

[SUTG]

"this is whithin the context of me being raised in our culture"

So, in another time or place raping a 3 year old comatose girl might be ok?

I doubt that it would be OK to me, but then again, if "I" were raised in another culture, I wouldn't really be me anymore. I think it is wrong for all people in all cultures to rape 3 year olds.

I appeal to the Law of the Creator. You can find this in Exodus.

So, to determine whether an action is moral or immoral you wait until you have a Bible around and then you look it up in Exodus? Or, do you have the Law of the Creator memorized?

And the reason you believe that raping a 3 year old comatose girl is wrong is because that is what it says in Exodus?