Montana is Ground Zero for Dating Dinos

[Jefferson]

Montana is Ground Zero for Dating Dinos

This is the show from Wednesday August 15th, 2007.

SUMMARY:

* Carbon 14 Dates: If the earth were millions of years old, we should find no carbon 14 in most of the "really old" specimens we date since C14 does not last millions of years. But in reality, the earth is young, and that is why scientists find C14, which only lasts thousands, not millions, of years, in diamonds, coal, gas, oil, amber, and dinosaur fossils! The soft tissue in Montana State University's T-rex bones is probably among the best dinosaur material to C14 date since it has been reasonably protected from groundwater contamination (otherwise, groundwater would have decomposed, and mineralized, the soft tissue)! Bob has just returned from his dinosaur dig in Glendive Montana, and brings us up to speed on the exciting young-earth creationism work being done there!

* Join Bob at the Banquet of the Year: Bob invites you to see the recent mug shot of the infamous abortionist George Tiller, at the annual Colorado Right to Life banquet September 22nd. Come meet and hear the Kansas Attorney General who risked his career to bring an abortionist to justice. Thanks to Phill Kline, abortionist George Tiller was just arraigned on 19 criminal counts of committing illegal abortions in Kansas. Mr. Kline's courage could stop a child killer in his tracks, and now he's coming to the CRTL banquet to help us promote the personhood of the unborn! To attend the CRTL September 22nd banquet at the Inverness Hotel DTC, call 303 753-9394 or register online at ColoradoRightToLife.org. CRTL has taken up a leadership role in the nationwide fight to restore the God-given right to life to the unborn, so please help them by calling 303 753-9394! Thanks!

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[Nineveh]

Wow! All sorts of good news today!

 

[BillyBob]

Hey Jefferson, is there a link from the original scientific publication that specifies how carbon 14 was used in dating dino fossils?

 

[Jefferson]

Hey Jefferson, is there a link from the original scientific publication that specifies how carbon 14 was used in dating dino fossils?

If I can find it I'll post it.

 

[SUTG]

Montana is Ground Zero for Dating Dinos

* Carbon 14 Dates: If the earth were millions of years old, we should find no carbon 14 in most of the "really old" specimens we date since C14 does not last millions of years. But in reality, the earth is young, and that is why scientists find C14, which only lasts thousands, not millions, of years, in diamonds, coal, gas, oil, amber, and dinosaur fossils! The soft tissue in Montana State University's T-rex bones is probably among the best dinosaur material to C14 date since it has been reasonably protected from groundwater contamination (otherwise, groundwater would have decomposed, and mineralized, the soft tissue)! Bob has just returned from his dinosaur dig in Glendive Montana, and brings us up to speed on the exciting young-earth creationism work being done there!

They found C-14 in a diamond! :shocked: Genesis must be literally true then. That is the only possible explanation. Let's discard the majority of science, you know, chemistry, biology, geology and physics...all of it out the window. It is all falsified by that C-14 they found. The Earth is 6000 years old and Noah's Ark is literally true. Just forget about thos nuclear reactor and nuclear submarines. They work by magic, since those nuclear physicists got it all wrong.

 

[Servo]

They found C-14 in a diamond! :shocked: Genesis must be literally true then. That is the only possible explanation. Let's discard the majority of science, you know, chemistry, biology, geology and physics...all of it out the window. It is all falsified by that C-14 they found. The Earth is 6000 years old and Noah's Ark is literally true. Just forget about thos nuclear reactor and nuclear submarines. They work by magic, since those nuclear physicists got it all wrong.

Umm...yeah. Did you listen to the show?
Kind of a problem since impurities and not going to get in the middle of a diamond that is supposed to be 70 million years old. C-14 can't be there if it that old!

 

[SUTG]

Umm...yeah. Did you listen to the show?
Kind of a problem since impurities and not going to get in the middle of a diamond that is supposed to be 70 million years old. C-14 can't be there if it that old!

No, didn't listen to the show yet, but might give it a listen later. (No soundcard at work)

However, I've listened to quite a few of Bob's show in the past, and concluded that he is a science-o-phobe, ala bob b.

 

[Servo]

No, didn't listen to the show yet, but might give it a listen later. (No soundcard at work)

However, I've listened to quite a few of Bob's show in the past, and concluded that he is a science-o-phobe, ala bob b.

Ok. Maybe give it a listen and then explain why they find carbon in the middle of diamonds. The impurities claim won't work.

Lots of interesting tidbits to talk about from the show...

 

[SUTG]

Maybe give it a listen and then explain why they find carbon in the middle of diamonds.

Uh, because that is what a diamond is, a hunk of carbon. :duh:

I listened to part of the first clip of Enyart's ignorance on a coworkers computer. Pretty dumb.

 

[Toast]

SUTG. Can you refute the claim that carbon 14 should not be found in stuff that is millions of years old since its half life is 5730 years, and it would not last millions of years? Who's being unscientific?

 

[BillyBob]

Anybody have a link to the scientific publication in which C-14 was used to date a dinosaur bone?

 

[SUTG]

Who's being unscientific?

Enyart is a classic case. He is only pretending to be scientific to try and gain some credibility for his delusional beliefs. Real science proceeds by looking at evidence and drawing conclusions, not by assuming a religious text is true and then working backwards to try and conjure up a pseudoscientific explanation which arrives at the same results. Enyart believes in a young Earth because of the Bible, not because of any pseudoscientific explanation he dreams up. He is starting with all of the answers. A dishonest method witll get stupid results. Every time.

 

[Toast]

Enyart is a classic case. He is only pretending to be scientific to try and gain some credibility for his delusional beliefs. Real science proceeds by looking at evidence and drawing conclusions, not by assuming a religious text is true and then working backwards to try and conjure up a pseudoscientific explanation which arrives at the same results. Enyart believes in a young Earth because of the Bible, not because of any pseudoscientific explanation he dreams up. He is starting with all of the answers. A dishonest method witll get stupid results. Every time.

What about you SUTG. Are you starting with the presupposition that The Bible is incorrect? The Bible has been proved right about all sorts of things, historical and prophetical. Do you know the age of the Earth? Were you there? Based on what evidence do you conclude the age of of the Earth is millions or billions of years old? I hope you are not being a hippocrit on your condemnation of Bob for having presuppositions.

 

[SUTG]

What about you SUTG. Are you starting with the presupposition that The Bible is incorrect?

No, I've concluded that a literal interpretation of the Bible is incorrect.

Do you know the age of the Earth?

Yes.

Were you there?

No. Were you there when any of the events in the Bible took place?

Based on what evidence do you conclude the age of of the Earth is millions or billions of years old?

The standard eveidence that is filling the science books. There are many lines of evidence, all pointing to the same conclusions: The Earth is old, humans evolved from other mamals which evolved from a common ancestor long ago, etc.

You've got a choice between YEC and science. Once you accept one, you discard the other.

 

[The Barbarian]

Can you refute the claim that carbon 14 should not be found in stuff that is millions of years old since its half life is 5730 years, and it would not last millions of years? Who's being unscientific?

Well, it's more that you don't know the whole story...

Carbon-14 is formed when nitrogen is struck by a massive subatomic particle. Nitrogen is a common impurity in diamonds.

In 1959 it was established that the majority (over 99%) of natural diamonds contain sub-microscopic nitrogen as an impurity within the carbon pattern.
http://www.pricescope.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000296.html

Consequently, all that's necessary for diamonds to have substantial amounts of C-14 is to be buried deep underground for a long time, near traces of radioactive elements. It turns out that kimberlite (the "blue earth" in which diamonds are found, has significant amounts of radioactive uranium and thorium.
http://emg.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/1-2/137

Mystery solved.

 

[The Barbarian]

Anybody have a link to the scientific publication in which C-14 was used to date a dinosaur bone?

From your question, I'm inferring that you know that it would be pretty stupid to date a dinosaur bone by C-14. BTW, there are ways that ground-borne C-14 can contaminate fossils. It's something you have to be aware of in archaeology, when the matrix is porous.

 

[Turbo]

They found C-14 in a diamond! :shocked: Genesis must be literally true then. That is the only possible explanation. Let's discard the majority of science, you know, chemistry, biology, geology and physics...all of it out the window. It is all falsified by that C-14 they found. The Earth is 6000 years old and Noah's Ark is literally true. Just forget about thos nuclear reactor and nuclear submarines. They work by magic, since those nuclear physicists got it all wrong.

Ever notice how evolutionists can never stay on topic?

Ever notice the fascination evolutionists have with Noah's ark?

Typical conversation.....

Creationist: Isn't it a bit far fetched to think that a whale evolved from a cow?

Evolutionist: Not really, after all.... whales have been discovered with vestigial hind legs!

Creationist: Actually that isn't true and here is proof.....

Evolutionist: How did Noah fit all those animals on the ark? Huh??? Huh??? Tell me how he did that. :ha:

Creationist: :sigh:

 

[Johnny]

The Barbarian, thanks for your response to this. The same issue has cropped up in the past regarding C-14 in coal and oil. There have been papers published on the correlation between background radiation and C-14 levels in samples which should have no C14. You never see these types of creationist "evidences" mention high-energy atmospheric photos creating C-14 in situ, nor do they mention anything of background uranium decay as a source of de novo C-14. This is a classic example of a creationist half-story that leads one down a completely misguided thought process. By and large I think creationists are less likely to fact check a piece of information that supports their conclusion, so it's easy to see how these memes survive.

But what I find more interesting is the general difficulty one encounters when actually trying to track down a published example of the C-14 levels in diamonds, or oil, or coal. These sorts of finds tend to get passed down by word of mouth, such that eventually the original support for the claim is lost and the claim can no longer be validated or support. I think it speaks for the value of the claim (or perhaps the intellectual standards of the supporters) when the information gets passed down in such a manner that the original support is lost. I would like very much to be able to track down original papers, so if any of you happen to have citations, by all means.

The soft tissue in Montana State University's T-rex bones is probably among the best dinosaur material to C14 date since it has been reasonably protected from groundwater contamination (otherwise, groundwater would have decomposed, and mineralized, the soft tissue)!

I would argue the complete opposite. Firstly, the team had a hard time extracting any organic material. All those pictures you saw that you guys quickly labeled "soft-tissue" turned out to be non-organic after all. Secondly, after extensive extraction and purification, the team came up with dilute scraps of protein -- not even complete polymers. Thirdly, and most importantly, in order to isolate organic material, the team had to use many organic solvents. And you guessed it, these would undoubtedly contaminate the sample. So in reality the soft tissue samples are an absolutely terrible candidate for dating. I can't see how anyone who considers these facts could argue otherwise.

 

[Ash1]

Carbon-14 in Diamonds

Carbon-14 in Diamonds

http://creationwiki.org/Diamond

DeYoung notes that there are three possible explanations for this presence of Carbon 14 that would preserve the diamonds' old age. First is contamination by Carbon-14 in groundwater supplying new atoms. This is very unlikely because different depths and densities of rock should show different levels of contamination, but the measured traces of Carbon-14 are fairly uniform.

A second suggestion is that nuclear decay in surrounding rock affects the Carbon-13 or Nitrogen-14 in the diamond to create recent Carbon-14. This could happen, but calculated rates of formation of Carbon-14 would be thousands of times less than the measured amounts.

The third suggestion is that radioactive atoms present in the diamonds' decay could occasionally emit a Carbon-14 nucleus rather than an alpha particle (which is a Helium nucleus). The rate of decay of carbon nuclei. however, would be hundreds of thousands of times less than what is needed to explain the presence of Carbon-14. Thus, DeYoung notes that the presence of Carbon-14 is good evidence for a young earth.

 

[Jukia]

OK, you who have just posted some cogent information re C14 in diamonds, dinos etc. Thanks. Although you are clearly just posting "just so stories" and info from the evil evolutionist atheistic conspiracy. Those who are true believers here know that if you had just checked with Dr. Walter Brown he would set you straight and supported the good Pastor Enyart.

Ah well, it does never cease to amaze me when the fundy's find some bit of anomolous (sp?) evidence that they never go to the source and try to get more background info. Perhaps becasue when they do that the science does not support their belief. Too much stress on the old noggin then. Much easier to take Dr. Brown at his word rather than real scientists.