ECT Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism

[God's Truth]

Water baptism is symbolic of what has already happened in the believer. The believer comes to make the pledge to God, to die to the sins of the world---they have repented of their sins; so now standing in the water, after the believer repents of their sins, the believer falls back, as if dead; then, the believer goes under the water, buried; then, the believer rises up out of the water, sins washed away as by the Holy Spirit, and the believer raises up to live a new life.

 

[turbosixx]

There is something that you seem to have forgotten, and that is that the Pharisees and teachers of the law enforced the old law and they didn’t believe in Jesus.

Acts 10:28 He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.

Was Peter a teacher of the old law? Did Jesus nail it to the cross?

Again, Peter could have water baptized them first and then they could have received the Holy Spirit. However, God giving Cornelius and his whole household the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized prove that it can be done.

I guess we will disagree on this point.

There is only one baptism that saves and that is when the saved person receives the Holy Spirit. For you not to understand something I say does not mean you can claim I make Paul a liar. Can you refrain from speaking like that to me?

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be ugly, just make a point.

If I understand you correctly, you are claiming two baptisms. One by the Holy Spirit and water which we are commanded to do. That is not one baptism.

When one is saved they are baptized with the Holy Spirit. It means that Jesus is living in your heart.

The BIBLE only tells of two times people were baptized WITH the Holy Spirit and each was a special situation. All the rest received the Holy Spirit like here.
Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[turbosixx]

Water baptism is symbolic of what has already happened in the believer. The believer comes to make the pledge to God, to die to the sins of the world---they have repented of their sins; so now standing in the water, after the believer repents of their sins, the believer falls back, as if dead; then, the believer goes under the water, buried; then, the believer rises up out of the water, sins washed away as by the Holy Spirit, and the believer raises up to live a new life.

I don't see water baptism as a symbol but the very thing. Peter says water baptism is the pledge. He says baptism is not the removal of dirt but a pledge to God for a clear conscience, 1 Pt. 3:21.

Then you say when they come out of the water sins washed away by the Holy Spirit. I agree with that 100%. Paul still had his sins until he washed them away in baptism.
Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

 

[God's Truth]

Was Peter a teacher of the old law?

Peter was not a Pharisee and not a teacher of the law.
Paul used to be a Pharisee.

Did Jesus nail it to the cross?

Jesus fulfilled the law.
God nailed the rules and regulations to the cross.
That does not mean the old law was not still enforce.
Jesus told his disciples to do what the Pharisees and teachers of the law said because they sat in Moses' seat, because the temple was still standing.

I guess we will disagree on this point.

Too bad that you would claim people Jesus himself saved are not saved.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be ugly, just make a point.

If I understand you correctly, you are claiming two baptisms. One by the Holy Spirit and water which we are commanded to do. That is not one baptism.

We are commanded to be water baptized, but the baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is the only baptism that saves.

We already discussed how people were water baptized and were not given the Holy Spirit and therefore not saved.

The BIBLE only tells of two times people were baptized WITH the Holy Spirit and each was a special situation. All the rest received the Holy Spirit like here.
Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit is to receive the Holy Spirit, and it is to be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 

[turbosixx]

Peter was not a Pharisee and not a teacher of the law.
Paul used to be a Pharisee.

Jesus fulfilled the law.
God nailed the rules and regulations to the cross.
That does not mean the old law was not still enforce.
Jesus told his disciples to do what the Pharisees and teachers of the law said because they sat in Moses' seat, because the temple was still standing.


Too bad that you would claim people Jesus himself saved are not saved.



We are commanded to be water baptized, but the baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is the only baptism that saves.

We already discussed how people were water baptized and were not given the Holy Spirit and therefore not saved.



Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit is to receive the Holy Spirit, and it is to be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

I think we have been over everything at least once. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[God's Truth]

I don't see water baptism as a symbol but the very thing. Peter says water baptism is the pledge. He says baptism is not the removal of dirt but a pledge to God for a clear conscience, 1 Pt. 3:21.

Then you say when they come out of the water sins washed away by the Holy Spirit. I agree with that 100%. Paul still had his sins until he washed them away in baptism.
Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Paul had the benefit of actually hearing the true gospel and then having someone water baptize him immediately after that.

That doesn't really happen like that anymore. Most people have to search for God. We search for God by getting Jesus' teachings, and we find God by obeying Jesus teachings. Having a bath or river, or other body of water and someone to hold you while you go under the water and pull you back up is not usually what happens anymore after we believe and repent and are saved.

Water baptism is symbolic of the Holy Spirit washing away the sins and not the water washing our body.

 

[God's Truth]

I think we have been over everything at least once. Thanks for the discussion.

I enjoyed the discussion. I hope that if you would like to talk more about it later then you would invite me to do so.

Remember, when the foundation was being laid, God went to people who were not looking for Him. God came to the Gentiles by the way of the Apostles, and if a Gentile believed and repented they could be saved.
Since the foundation has been laid, we do not have the Apostles coming to us, but we do have God's written Word come to us in our language. We might only hear a little truth here and a little truth there from someone preaching, since there are so many false doctrines out there. There is no way your denomination can be the only people responsible for saving others. We are saved by getting Jesus' teachings and obeying them.

 

[turbosixx]

I enjoyed the discussion. I hope that if you would like to talk more about it later then you would invite me to do so.

Remember, when the foundation was being laid, God went to people who were not looking for Him. God came to the Gentiles by the way of the Apostles, and if a Gentile believed and repented they could be saved.
Since the foundation has been laid, we do not have the Apostles coming to us, but we do have God's written Word come to us in our language. We might only hear a little truth here and a little truth there from someone preaching, since there are so many false doctrines out there. There is no way your denomination can be the only people responsible for saving others. We are saved by getting Jesus' teachings and obeying them.

I would be glad to talk more. I think we have beat this horse enough for now. We might beat it again later.

No, I don't think we are the only true church. Anyone who follows the truth of God's word is a true believer.

Yes, there is much confusion out there. That is why I do my very best to follow only what the bible says. No more and no less.

 

[Cross Reference]

Correct me if I'm wrong. They were first water baptized into John's baptism. Then Paul baptizes (water) them in the name of Jesus then he lays hands on them and that is when they receive the Holy Spirit. Is that how you see it?

Water just makes one wet. When Spiritual water is used it will be as a continual inner wetness 'outflowing from one's belly' that will get other people wet.

 

[Cross Reference]

No need to review I'm quite familiar with them. I have looked at this hard because I want to understand the truth.

Then let the scriptures say what they say when they say this: "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit." Hebrews 6:1-3 (KJV) SO, "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? Hebrews 2:3-4 (KJV)? Which is why Paul cautioned Timothy: "Do not be hasty [presumptuous?] in the laying on of hands, . . ." 1 Timothy 5:22 (ESV)

I would politely suggest that in Acts 19 you are calling the laying of hands a baptism when the bible does not. It say "the Holy Spirit came on them".

Jesus is the baptizer. It is the baptism of Jesus Christ which is one of the (3) manifestations of the Holy Spirit. The first (2) were NOT baptisms. However,I am NOT calling the "laying on of hands", anything but a vehicle because it was the means Jesus used to baptize/gift followers.. These disciples of John, [who had already been baptized in water for the remission of sins], Paul, by the laying on of his hands administered the gift of Jesus. Paul simply prayed, much as Peter spoke when speaking to Corneilus' household of unbaptized by water, believers. Proving God will perform in whatever way He choses. so much now for the minutia in critical matters which explain themselves..

The bible calls Cornelius being baptism with the Holy Spirit baptism but not in Acts 19. No where in scripture is receiving the Holy Spirit by laying of hands called a baptism.

Receiving the Holy Spirit is NOT a baptism but the receiving of the same Spirit Jesus had in Him; the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was born with it. We, who are of Him were born again, received what Jesus possessed from His natural birth. He never had a need to be "born again". We do.

Jesus experienced (2) baptisms before beginning His ministry. Both were recorded by Luke 4:1-14 KJV and Matthew 3:13-17 KJV. (1) was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, the "coming upon", symbolized by the descending upon Him.

If we look at Acts 2:38 it says "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
One baptism but a giving of the Holy Spirit.

Forgiveness of sins = Water baptism, the outward revealing of "the desire to be a part of something". [The thief on the cross was not permitted to do this because of his circumstances and yet was still saved.]

Baptism into a life of continual worship = Baptism in the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ which carries with it the "unction to function".

Remember, Jesus was baptized in/by those (2) baptisms before being sent into the wilderness to be proven/tested/tempted.


Ref: Manifrestations of the Holy Spirit: Actual presence: "With" you, John 14:17; "Indwelling" in you, John 20:22; "Upon" you, Luke 24:49.

Jesus the baptizer = Luke 3:16.
Acts 1:5 (KJV 1900)

"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Acts 1:5 KJV

 

[meshak]

Moment of Salvation

Moment of salvation wont come until Jesus judges.

Jesus says to be faithful to Him until the end in the book of revelation.

So it is wrong to claim to be saved before that day.

 

[Cross Reference]

Moment of salvation wont come until Jesus' judges.

Jesus says to be faithful to Him until the end in the book of revelation.

So it is wrong to claim to be saved before that day.

We are saved now by faith. The actuality is what you are thinking. In that, you are correct.

 

[God's Truth]

I would be glad to talk more. I think we have beat this horse enough for now. We might beat it again later.

No, I don't think we are the only true church. Anyone who follows the truth of God's word is a true believer.

Yes, there is much confusion out there. That is why I do my very best to follow only what the bible says. No more and no less.

I hate that phrase about studying the Bible. I just think you can never talk and study too much and always something good comes from it.

We should not try to find the perfect denomination, because God's Truth is found by getting Jesus' teachings and doing what he says.

What other denominations would you join?

 

[God's Truth]

Water just makes one wet. When Spiritual water is used it will be as a continual inner wetness 'outflowing from one's belly' that will get other people wet.

Water baptism is a ceremony that God wants us to do.

 

[turbosixx]

Water just makes one wet. When Spiritual water is used it will be as a continual inner wetness 'outflowing from one's belly' that will get other people wet.

What is spiritual water?

 

[turbosixx]

I hate that phrase about studying the Bible. I just think you can never talk and study too much and always something good comes from it.

We should not try to find the perfect denomination, because God's Truth is found by getting Jesus' teachings and doing what he says.

What other denominations would you join?

I would never join a denomination because Jesus is not divided.

 

[God's Truth]

I would never join a denomination because Jesus is not divided.

You are in a denomination.

You belong to the denomination called the church of Christ.

That denomination is one like many others.

That denomination speaks against Jesus when it says you must be baptized according to their baptism or you are not saved.

 

[meshak]

What is spiritual water?

I believe it is like spiritual circumcision.

 

[Cross Reference]

I like that. It speaks of intimacy. . .

 

[meshak]

I like that. It speaks of intimacy. . .

Jesus looks into our heart.

We will not inherit God's Kingdom by our knowledge. Jesus made that clear.