Mixing Law & Grace

[Jerry Shugart]

You think this disproves what I said how?

The verses I quoted speak of God judging people according to their works in regard to well doing:

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his works: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath" (Ro.2:8).​

If a person does not continue in well doing then he does not receive eternal life. He is condemned and he no longer has a chance to receive eternal life by his works. After he sins he is separated from God:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear" (Isa.59:2).​

After that no amount of obedience can serve to bring anyone back to God. No one gets a second chance to earn eternal life by his works. If anyone is going to be saved after sinning he is entirely dependent on the grace of God. You just completely ignored what Paul wrote at Romands 2:18 because what he wrote there completely destroys your idea that no one can be saved apart from obedience.


And of course you refuse to believe the Lord Jesus when He told us exactly how anyone receives eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47)..​

As soon as anyone believes they HAVE eternal life. According to your perverted teaching a person cannot have eternal life until living a life of obedience. Please give me your interpretation of the meaning of the the Lord Jesus' words at John 6:47.

 

[God's Truth]

The verses I quoted speak of God judging people according to their works in regard to well doing:

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his works: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath" (Ro.2:8).​

If a person does not continue in well doing then he does not receive eternal life. He is condemned and he no longer has a chance to receive eternal life by his works. After he sins he is separated from God:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear" (Isa.59:2).​

No one ever gets saved unless they repented of their sins.

After that no amount of obedience can serve to bring anyone back to God. No one gets a second chance to earn eternal life by his works. If anyone is going to be saved after sinning he is entirely dependent on the grace of God. You just completely ignored what Paul wrote at Romands 2:18 because what he wrote there completely destroys your idea that no one can be saved apart from obedience.

You are contradicting yourself all over the place. Sure seems like someone put a spell on you.

And of course you refuse to believe the Lord Jesus when He told us exactly how anyone receives eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47)..​

You were given scriptures where Jesus says you have to obey. You have to believe that Jesus is the son of God and that you have to obey him.

As soon as anyone believes they HAVE eternal life. According to your perverted teaching a person cannot have eternal life until living a life of obedience. Please give me your interpretation of the meaning of the the Lord Jesus' words at John 6:47.

I already explained it to you and gave you many scriptures, but you only want to go by two scriptures, and two scriptures you don't understand.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Consider more carefully the scripture you quote in Romans 4.

We need to go back to the previous chapter from the book of Romans in order to determine whether the word "works" refers to the ceremonial law or the moral law:

"For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

Here the words "no human being" must include both Gentiles and Jews. So the words "the law," which refer to the Law of Moses, cannot be a correct translation since the Gentiles were never given the Law of Moses:

"When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them" (Ro.2:14-15).​

Since the Gentiles do not have the Law of Moses then the following is the correct translation of Romans 3:20:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20; Young's Literal Translation).​

We read, "through law is a knowledge of sin." In regard to the Gentiles the law which is a knowledge of sin is the moral law. That is the only law to which the conscience bears witness.

In regard to the Jews it is the Ten Commandments which is a knowledge of sin, as witnessed by the following words of Paul found later in the same epistle:

"What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, 'You shall not covet.'" (Ro.7:7).​

The law which says, "You shall not covet," is one of the Ten Commandments (Ex.20:17).

So at Romans 3:20 Paul is saying that by the moral law shall no flesh be declared righteous in the sight of God, and that moral law must include the Ten Commandments. Therefore, the "works" refers to the moral law for both the Gentiles and the Jews.

And that is exactly what the word "works" refers to in the following passage:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).​

You deny the truth of the gospel of grace when you insist that no one can be saved apart from keeping the moral law and it is obvious that you have not yet believed the gospel of grace because you do not even understand it. If you think you have been saved you are mistaken because you do not believe the gospel of grace.

 

[nikolai_42]

When you add the Law to the Gospel you create lawlessness and sin is lawlessness.

That's a vague statement. What do you mean by adding the Law to the Gospel? Are you referring to having both function the same way to achieve the same end? Or are you saying that when they are used together (regardless of how or for what independent and combined purposes), the outcome is always sin?

 

[God's Truth]

We need to go back to the previous chapter from the book of Romans in order to determine whether the word "works" refers to the ceremonial law or the moral law:

No, we don't need to, because I already proved it; but will gladly keep showing you the truth with the other scriptures too.

"For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).

Paul talks about the whole law, the works of the law that purifies/justifies a person, and the part of the law that are the works of the law that teaches what sin is and what to do and what not to do.

You are not catching this when you read the scriptures.

Please read this:

Romans 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Now do you see where Paul says as a teacher of Jesus, how a person is JUSTIFIED by FAITH apart from the WORKS OF THE LAW? The WORKS OF THE LAW that justified a person before Jesus came, they were justified by the purification works that the people HAD TO DO to get cleaned/justified---but now THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS' SHED BLOOD on the cross CLEANING us, PURIFYING US---we no longer have to do those works of the law to clean us.

Now read how Paul then says do we nullify the law by this faith, no, we uphold the law.

That is Paul now speaking of the other works of the law. We uphold the 'do not' commands, such as do not commit adultery, etc, but we DO NOT do the things for which a CIRCUMCISED person used to have to do, such as the various baths, the special diet, the observance of special days, the going to the priest, and the sacrifice of animals.

Here the words "no human being" must include both Gentiles and Jews. So the words "the law," which refer to the Law of Moses, cannot be a correct translation since the Gentiles were never given the Law of Moses:

The Gentiles could have converted and did the purification works of the law.

"When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them" (Ro.2:14-15).

The law is the whole law WITH the purification/ceremonial works that purifies the person, it justifies them.
So now you must see that you are mixing up the two things, just like Peter says the unlearned do, and just like what James says the foolish do.
Just look at the works James is speaking about when he says faith without works is dead.
James isn't talking about the purification/ceremonial works; he is talking about doing right.
Peter in 2 Peter 3:16, 17 isn't speaking of the purification works; he is talking about doing right.
In Romans 2 which you quoted is about doing right and not doing wrong. Just read what Paul says. Paul brings up adultery and stealing! That is about the doing right and not doing wrong.
That is the type of works that James and Peter are talking about, but the foolish and unlearned misunderstand Paul and think when he says 'not of works' that it means not of doing right, like not stealing and not committing adultery.

Read carefully what Paul says in these next scriptures.

Notice that Paul speaks about boasting in the law? That is about boasting in circumcision and doing the other purification works.

Now notice where Paul says BUT DO YOU who are CIRCUMCISED also STEAL or COMMIT ADULTERY.

See how Paul brings up CIRCUMCISION, a purification works of the law, and THEN SPEAKS OF STEALING AND ADULTERY.

Learn to tell the difference of the works Paul is speaking about.

Paul would NEVER EVER preach we are saved by faith and not doing right.


The Jews and the Law


¹⁷ Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; ¹⁸ if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; ¹⁹ if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, ²⁰ an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— ²¹ you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? ²² You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? ²³ You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? ²⁴ As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”<sup>[b]

25</sup> Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. ²⁶ So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? ²⁷ The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the^[c] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

²⁸ A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. ²⁹ No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.


You see, Paul is comparing a CIRCUMCISED Jew with UNCIRCUMCISED Gentiles who know right from wrong.

Since the Gentiles do not have the Law of Moses then the following is the correct translation of Romans 3:20:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20; Young's Literal Translation).​

That is about the works of the law that came from Moses such as CIRCUMCISION, the dietary laws, the various baths, the sacrifice of animals.

Read the scriptures just above the one you quoted, it is about how the Jews would do the purification works BUT STILL SIN.

God did not like it that the Jews would do the purification works to purify themselves, but they would still sin.

Paul is NOT saying anything against people who obey by not committing adultery and stealing, etc. PAUL IS SPEAKING ABOUT HOW CIRCUMCISION and the OTHER PURIFICATION WORKS OF THE LAW IS NOT THE WAY to get cleaned anymore.

We read, "through law is a knowledge of sin." In regard to the Gentiles the law which is a knowledge of sin is the moral law. That is the only law to which the conscience bears witness.

In regard to the Jews it is the Ten Commandments which is a knowledge of sin, as witnessed by the following words of Paul found later in the same epistle:

"What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, 'You shall not covet.'" (Ro.7:7).​

The law which says, "You shall not covet," is one of the Ten Commandments (Ex.20:17).

So at Romans 3:20 Paul is saying that by the moral law shall no flesh be declared righteous in the sight of God, and that moral law must include the Ten Commandments. Therefore, the "works" refers to the moral law for both the Gentiles and the Jews.

Stop right there and see for yourself that you are missing it, for the only thing the GENTILES WHO DID RIGHT BY NOT STEALING, ETC, they also DID NOT DO, WAS THE PURIFICATION WORKS OF THE LAW. The Gentiles were EXCLUDED AND WITHOUT God BECAUSE THEY DID NOT do the purification works of the law.
Paul is saying now ALL will be considered righteous and clean BY FAITH in Jesus' shed blood on the cross.

No way is Paul says by obeying the moral law shall no flesh be declared righteous in the sight of God.

Paul is saying no one who does the purification/ceremonial works of the law no one will be declared righteous---because, as Paul says it is by FAITH now that God cleans us by the blood of the Lamb.

And that is exactly what the word "works" refers to in the following passage:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).​

Just as I explained.

You deny the truth of the gospel of grace when you insist that no one can be saved apart from keeping the moral law and it is obvious that you have not yet believed the gospel of grace because you do not even understand it. If you think you have been saved you are mistaken because you do not believe the gospel of grace.

You don't understand what the gospel is.
The gospel isn't hey everyone, just believe that Jesus is God and you can keep sinning as always.
The gospel IS that we can find forgiveness and help with our sin if we believe that Jesus' blood washes away the sins we repent of doing and promise to live to please Jesus.
The gospel is that we no longer have to do the purification works of the law just to go to the temple to be near God's Spirit.
The gospel is that Jesus cleans us and we become the temple of God's Spirit.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, we don't need to, because I already proved it; but will gladly keep showing you the truth with the other scriptures too.

In order to understand the meaning of the "works"nof the law it is necessary to start where Paul starts writing on this subject. But since you have no answer to what I said you refuse to discuss those verses. You pick and choose what verses you will believe and which ones you you will ignore. Not only that, you refuse to use your brain when it comes to verses which contradict your mistaken ideas. For instance, let us look at the following words of the Lord Jesus which you so easily dismiss:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

Here is your pitiful answer to the words of the Savior Himself:

You were given scriptures where Jesus says you have to obey. You have to believe that Jesus is the son of God and that you have to obey him.

At John 6:4 the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense, meaning that as soon as someone believes he has eternal life.But according to your perversion of the Scriptures no one is saved until they believe and then obey. You turn reason on its head and refuse to believe the truth that a person is saved and already has eternal life before they obey anything. And here the Apostle John confirms this fact:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

You are somehow able to trick you mind into believing that no one is saved until they live a life of obedience despite the fact that the Lord Jesus Himself contradicts that idea. You say, "You were given scriptures where Jesus says you have to obey."

Please quote the verses where the Lord Jesus said that "obedience" is necessary for salvation..

 

[God's Truth]

In order to understand the meaning of the "works"nof the law it is necessary to start where Paul starts writing on this subject. But since you have no answer to what I said you refuse to discuss those verses.

Prove it I haven't.

You pick and choose what verses you will believe and which ones you you will ignore. Not only that, you refuse to use your brain when it comes to verses which contradict your mistaken ideas.

Do you believe that Peter and James spoke what the Holy Spirit had them say?
Well you misunderstand Paul about no works and Peter and James say you are a fool, unstable, and unlearned.

For instance, let us look at the following words of the Lord Jesus which you so easily dismiss:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

I don't dismiss anything that Jesus says.

Here is your pitiful answer to the words of the Savior Himself:

You think it is pitiful to obey Jesus? You really want to keep with that route?

You think all those scriptures Jesus came to earth to teach us are all nullified because he says we have to believe.

At John 6:4 the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense, meaning that as soon as someone believes he has eternal life.

Name one person in the Bible who was saved the minute they believed and had not yet obeyed God.

But according to your perversion of the Scriptures no one is saved until they believe and then obey.

Anyone who wants to be saved must believe that they have to obey Jesus. They have to repent of their sins and believe his blood washes them clean.

The only perversion is you calling it a perversion to do what Jesus says.

You turn reason on its head and refuse to believe the truth that a person is saved and already has eternal life before they obey anything. And here the Apostle John confirms this fact:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

All the scriptures that say 'believe', they don't nullify the scriptures that say 'obey'.

Read what Paul says in Romans 13.

He says salvation nearer than when we believed, and then he goes on to tell what to do.


Romans 13: 11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


Look at this scripture. Paul says salvation is near those who repent, just as Jesus says.

Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near."




God is near, and repent.

Acts 17:27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.




Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him


John 8:31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.


Mark 1:15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!"


The Father and Jesus won't live in you until you love him by obeying Jesus' teachings. So how are you saved by believing and not obeying Jesus' teachings?
John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.


You don't get to live in Jesus either if you don't obey him:
1 John 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.


What do you preach? You preach I am perverse for saying we have to obey Jesus to be saved, but what does Jesus say?

John 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.


See that, if you DO NOT love Jesus---YOU WILL NOT OBEY HIS TEACHINGS--- You must not love Jesus because you say we don't have to obey only believe to get saved and Jesus says only those who love him will get saved.

You are somehow able to trick you mind into believing that no one is saved until they live a life of obedience despite the fact that the Lord Jesus Himself contradicts that idea. You say, "You were given scriptures where Jesus says you have to obey."

Please quote the verses where the Lord Jesus said that "obedience" is necessary for salvation..

I have been giving them to you. Are you blind?

 

[God's Truth]

Jerry Shugart

Read how Paul says the DOERS of the law shall be justified.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


The part of the old law we don't do anymore is the clean ourselves part, because Jesus cleans us for us.


Read how Paul says so that we might BELIEVE AND OBEY.


Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him—


Read here where Paul says it is to the children of Abraham and GOD-FEARING GENTILES that the gospel message is sent.

Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

 

[OZOS]

That's a vague statement. What do you mean by adding the Law to the Gospel? Are you referring to having both function the same way to achieve the same end? Or are you saying that when they are used together (regardless of how or for what independent and combined purposes), the outcome is always sin?

"Everyone who commits sin, is the slave of sin" - Jesus

"I had not known sin, but by the Law" Rom 7:7

"The power of sin is the Law." 1 Cor 15:56
"The Law is not of faith." Gal 3:12
"Apart from the Law sin is dead." Rom 7:8
"The righteous will live by faith." Gal 3:11

Anyone who serves the Law commits sin, and everyone who commits sin, is the slave of sin.
Adding the Law to the Gospel (Jesus died for our sins) is to return to sin and lawlessness.
No one is free from sin who serves the Law.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Prove it I haven't.

If you have then tell me what "works" apply to the Gentile believers in the following verse:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).​

Remember, the Gentiles did not have the ceremonial law and neither were they circumcised.

I don't dismiss anything that Jesus says.

Let us look at the following words of the Lord Jesus again:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

At John 6:4 the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense, meaning that as soon as someone believes he has eternal life. To this you said:

Name one person in the Bible who was saved the minute they believed and had not yet obeyed God.

The second a person believes he has eternal life. Do you not know what the "present" tense means? In regard to John 6:47 it can only mean that at the same time a person believes he has eternal life. Perhaps you think that even though a person has eternal life he is not yet saved? Is that what you believe?

Now to an instance where people were saved before they obeyed the Lord Jesus. The following verses are in regard to Cornelius and his household:

"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 10:44-45).​

The Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and his household immediately after hearing Peter preach to them. Do you not think those people were saved despite the fact that the Holy Spirit had fallen on them? Is that what you think?

Now let us look at the following verse:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" (Eph.1:13).​

After believing a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. That happens before anyone obeys. Perhaps you think that even though a believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise he is not yet saved? Is that what you believe?

We also see that a person is born again when he believes the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

When a person believes the gospel he is born again. Do you not think that once a person is born again that he is saved?

Jerry Shugart

Read how Paul says the DOERS of the law shall be justified.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Yes, the doers of the law shall be justified but in order for that to happen one must keep the law perfectly:

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident" (Gal.3:10-11).​

It is evident that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God to everyone but you!

 

[OZOS]

Are you saying you are saved before you obeyed any of his commands---that you were saved and knew Him before obeying His commands?


1 John 2:4 Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

To obey God is to believe Him concerning His Son. You have yet to do that, and unless you do, YOU will hear Jesus say "I never knew YOU".

 

[God's Truth]

"Everyone who commits sin, is the slave of sin" - Jesus

"I had not known sin, but by the Law" Rom 7:7

"The power of sin is the Law." 1 Cor 15:56
"The Law is not of faith." Gal 3:12
"Apart from the Law sin is dead." Rom 7:8
"The righteous will live by faith." Gal 3:11

Anyone who serves the Law commits sin, and everyone who commits sin, is the slave of sin.
Adding the Law to the Gospel (Jesus died for our sins) is to return to sin and lawlessness.
No one is free from sin who serves the Law.

That is about not doing the purification/ceremonial works of the law.

You can't figure it out that I am speaking the truth?

Just read what you posted about Paul saying those negative things about the law, and then read the other good things he says about it.

Peter says people misunderstand Paul, and then Peter warns us to obey.

What do you think people misunderstand Paul about if not exactly what you and many others do about faith and works?

James calls you foolish and then goes on to tell you faith alone without right action is dead.

 

[God's Truth]

If you have then tell me what "works" apply to the Gentile believers in the following verse

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).


Remember, the Gentiles did not have the ceremonial law and neither were they circumcised.

The Gentiles COULD have converted by doing the ceremonial works, AND, they were separate from God and ENEIMIES of God BECAUSE they did NOT do the ceremonial works. NOT only that, they KNEW they were separate because of the ceremonial works and were called uncircumcised and unclean people.

Read here how Paul says Jesus saved them while they were still enemies. That means Jesus saved them and didn’t make them get circumcised first.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

Let us look at the following words of the Lord Jesus again:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

At John 6:4 the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense, meaning that as soon as someone believes he has eternal life.

Jesus came first for those who were CHILDREN OF GOD ALREADY.

Now those Jews had to believe that they had to go through him.

Jesus tells them they have to believe and they will be saved.

John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

John 17:9 I ask on their behalf. I do not ask on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those You have given Me; for they are Yours.

John 8:51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death."

 

[God's Truth]

To this you said:Name one person in the Bible who was saved the minute they believed and had not yet obeyed God.

I am still going to wait for you to name one person in the Bible who was saved and didn't have to do anything but believe.

The second a person believes he has eternal life. Do you not know what the "present" tense means? In regard to John 6:47 it can only mean that at the same time a person believes he has eternal life. Perhaps you think that even though a person has eternal life he is not yet saved? Is that what you believe?

When a person is saved they have eternal life.

Remember what I told you about how Jesus came for the Jews WHO ALREADY BELONGED TO GOD?

Think back to what happened before he started his earthly ministry.

John the baptizer had to have the people repent of their sins to prepare the way for Jesus.

Jesus would not have come until they repented.

We still have to prepare the way for Jesus to live in our hearts by first repenting of our sins.

John 1:23 John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.'"


John the baptizer prepared the way for Jesus. He came preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins (Luke 1:76-80).

 

[OZOS]

That is about not doing the purification/ceremonial works of the law.

You can't figure it out that I am speaking the truth?

Just read what you posted about Paul saying those negative things about the law, and then read the other good things he says about it.

Peter says people misunderstand Paul, and then Peter warns us to obey.

What do you think people misunderstand Paul about if not exactly what you and many others do about faith and works?

James calls you foolish and then goes on to tell you faith alone without right action is dead.

Pointless for me to speak to YOU, a dead man, who intentionally and repeatedly has rejected the gospel that saves. You will go to hell. Count on it.

 

[God's Truth]

Now to an instance where people were saved before they obeyed the Lord Jesus. The following verses are in regard to Cornelius and his household:

"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 10:44-45).

The Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and his household immediately after hearing Peter preach to them. Do you not think those people were saved despite the fact that the Holy Spirit had fallen on them? Is that what you think?

Cornelius and his whole household believed in God and feared Him, and were devout.

Cornelius gave generously to those in need and PRAYED to God regularly.

Acts 10:1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”

4Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.

The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter. 6He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea.”

7When the angel who spoke to him had gone, Cornelius called two of his servants and a devout soldier who was one of his attendants. 8He told them everything that had happened and sent them to Joppa.


Cornelius was a RIGHTEOUS man.


Acts 10:22 Acts 10:22 The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say."



So try again to find someone who was saved without having to do anything.

 

[God's Truth]

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

To obey God is to believe Him concerning His Son. You have yet to do that, and unless you do, YOU will hear Jesus say "I never knew YOU".

Jesus said he will say, "I never knew you" to THOSE LIKE YOU who have NOT repented of their sins.

True and False Disciples

Matthew 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


They were still EVILDOERS---they did NOT REPENT of their SINS.

 

[God's Truth]

Pointless for me to speak to YOU, a dead man, who intentionally and repeatedly has rejected the gospel that saves. You will go to hell. Count on it.

God doesn't send people to hell for preaching obedience to Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

Now let us look at the following verse:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" (Eph.1:13).

After believing a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. That happens before anyone obeys. Perhaps you think that even though a believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise he is not yet saved? Is that what you believe?

The MESSAGE, the gospel that saves---IS A MESSAGE about REPENTING OF SINS and DYING with the LORD, and LIVING to PLEASE JESUS.

Back up to Ephesians 7 and read how Paul says we have redemption through HIS BLOOD, the FORGIVENESS of sins.
No one receives forgiveness of sins that one does not REPENT OF DOING.

7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace