ECT MAD and the conflicts with Judaism and Peter

Lighthouse

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21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Duh - UH!!!

:chuckle:

Not to mention that Paul didn't even follow that advice 100%.
 

Interplanner

New member
Are you just rambling?

How about you take the time to lay out an actual argument?

“But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, 'It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.'”
Acts 15:5

Why would they say this if they were not keeping the Law? And remember, these were people who were believers as a result of the preaching of the 12. This shows the 12 were preaching the Law.

So, what part of the chapters you referenced do you think is so important?


As for your use of Acts 15:5, you may notice that the issue starts with the word "But..." Do you have any idea what that means in retelling an account like this? The work among non-Jews was going just fine, BUT... The but means that there was an agitated small % who were from that sect and we find out later, from Romans and Corinthians, that they are the weaker brothers, who 'need' the law around, or they don't quite know where they are at.

As for an 'actual argument,' I'm afraid your head is so full of other glommed-on theology that I don't know how to unmake it.
1, the apostles were taught for 40 days that the events of the Gospel that had just taken place were everything that was supposed to happen to Israel, including its becoming missionaries to the nations in that generation.
2, within that teaching of Jesus was that the Resurrection itself was the ascension and enthronement of Christ in his kingdom above. While it is 'above' it is not detached from us. His position as Lord of all things is to be preached to all men, including those who rule human kingdoms, to live in faith and in righteousness.
3, within the teaching of the Resurrection is the exposition of Ps 2, 16 and 110. All their preaching is primarily about these, and in ch 4 they pray Ps 2 about the persecution that is taking place, which is such a powerful moment that the place where they were praying starts shaking.
4, they preach that the mistake of Israel in rejection of Christ is actually to be seen as the event to which all the prophets were pointing, and that it results in a message of grace abounding where sin reigned, and is the promise to their fathers, so that the nations could share in faith, the Gospel and the hope of the NHNE.
5, they preach that to ignore this message (nevermind now what happened in killing Christ) is to suffer disinheritance, in Acts 3.
6, they preach that the Spirit's work, which is proof of Christ's enthronement and due to his accomplishment, is the times of refreshing spoken of by the prophets to help get the mission to the nations started and funded and succeeding.
7, all of these items are again stated in the sample, official sermon of Acts 13 to Jews two countries away from Israel, so it is a uniform effort.
8, the conflict with Judaism is that nothing they thought about eschatology was happening. They thought the law was going to be administered all over the world. That the Gospel event of Christ was an unmentionable abberation. They had nothing that resulted in their mingling with the nations without the 'protection' of the law against being 'contaminated' by such mingling. They could not believe that the Gospel of Christ was the channel through which the messianic kingdom was powerfully established, nor that anything could happen or be 'messianic' without the establishment of practices of the law, usually identified by ceremonial and dietary matters.
 

Lighthouse

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As for your use of Acts 15:5, you may notice that the issue starts with the word "But..." Do you have any idea what that means in retelling an account like this? The work among non-Jews was going just fine, BUT... The but means that there was an agitated small % who were from that sect and we find out later, from Romans and Corinthians, that they are the weaker brothers, who 'need' the law around, or they don't quite know where they are at.
Really? So at which point in the narrative did the "stronger" of the 12 and their converts say anything about themselves not keeping the law? Did Peter say anything when he spoke as recorded in the chapter?

As for an 'actual argument,' I'm afraid your head is so full of other glommed-on theology that I don't know how to unmake it.
1, the apostles were taught for 40 days that the events of the Gospel that had just taken place were everything that was supposed to happen to Israel, including its becoming missionaries to the nations in that generation.
2, within that teaching of Jesus was that the Resurrection itself was the ascension and enthronement of Christ in his kingdom above. While it is 'above' it is not detached from us. His position as Lord of all things is to be preached to all men, including those who rule human kingdoms, to live in faith and in righteousness.
3, within the teaching of the Resurrection is the exposition of Ps 2, 16 and 110. All their preaching is primarily about these, and in ch 4 they pray Ps 2 about the persecution that is taking place, which is such a powerful moment that the place where they were praying starts shaking.
4, they preach that the mistake of Israel in rejection of Christ is actually to be seen as the event to which all the prophets were pointing, and that it results in a message of grace abounding where sin reigned, and is the promise to their fathers, so that the nations could share in faith, the Gospel and the hope of the NHNE.
5, they preach that to ignore this message (nevermind now what happened in killing Christ) is to suffer disinheritance, in Acts 3.
6, they preach that the Spirit's work, which is proof of Christ's enthronement and due to his accomplishment, is the times of refreshing spoken of by the prophets to help get the mission to the nations started and funded and succeeding.
7, all of these items are again stated in the sample, official sermon of Acts 13 to Jews two countries away from Israel, so it is a uniform effort.
8, the conflict with Judaism is that nothing they thought about eschatology was happening. They thought the law was going to be administered all over the world. That the Gospel event of Christ was an unmentionable abberation. They had nothing that resulted in their mingling with the nations without the 'protection' of the law against being 'contaminated' by such mingling. They could not believe that the Gospel of Christ was the channel through which the messianic kingdom was powerfully established, nor that anything could happen or be 'messianic' without the establishment of practices of the law, usually identified by ceremonial and dietary matters.
You barely referenced any Scripture in this rambling and quoted none of it. And didn't even reference specific passages that we could check without having to leave the page and the conversation.

You have absolutely no interest in real dialogue here do you?
 

Danoh

New member
Lighthouse, IP's is how the wisdom of men do their thing - read "about."

As a result they talk "about."

Its the way of their endless books "about."

Music to their deaf ears.

"Pop muzik; talk about. Pop muzik; talk about"

:rotfl:
 

patrick jane

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Banned
lol about Acts 15 because his sample in Acts 13 SAYS THE SAME THINGS THAT ACTS 2 AND 3 SAID. He shows Israel sinning but in that same tragedy Christ is justification from all sin for all who believe. And that these things were what was promised to the fathers.

This was totally unacceptable to Judaism, as you can tell, if notice the reaction of Judaism's leaders!! (What else would you notice, lol).
lol what is important is when 2P2P started in conglomeration to the Acts2 3, 4, 13, 15, 26 and 28 studies. I have an Associates degree in NT Luke through Acts, focusing on the DofJ and the revolt. It all boils down to - "you know what you do, God knows why you do it"
 

Interplanner

New member
Really? So at which point in the narrative did the "stronger" of the 12 and their converts say anything about themselves not keeping the law? Did Peter say anything when he spoke as recorded in the chapter?


You barely referenced any Scripture in this rambling and quoted none of it. And didn't even reference specific passages that we could check without having to leave the page and the conversation.

You have absolutely no interest in real dialogue here do you?


OK, here's the homework list. I've been at it 40 years.

Lk 24
Acts 2, Ps 2, Ps 16, Ps 110. For commentary on the Psalms see Acts 2-4.
The mistake of Israel: this is mentioned in each proclamation of Acts 2, 3, 4
The mission of Israel: see the end of Acts 3; the Spirit would work through them for that purpose
Acts 13's sermon. It might be good to read it several times?
The most obvious indication in Acts of the sect of the Pharisees trying to have their say in the Christian church is that they want ceremonial and circumcision rules observed. See Gal 1, 2, Peter's issues in Acts 8-10, and the results of the council in Acts 15.

When these details are fully in hand, we should talk further.

As you can see none of paranoid Danoh's 'books about' need be mentioned, but historical work can really help.
 

Lighthouse

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OK, here's the homework list. I've been at it 40 years.

Lk 24
Acts 2, Ps 2, Ps 16, Ps 110. For commentary on the Psalms see Acts 2-4.
The mistake of Israel: this is mentioned in each proclamation of Acts 2, 3, 4
The mission of Israel: see the end of Acts 3; the Spirit would work through them for that purpose
Acts 13's sermon. It might be good to read it several times?
The most obvious indication in Acts of the sect of the Pharisees trying to have their say in the Christian church is that they want ceremonial and circumcision rules observed. See Gal 1, 2, Peter's issues in Acts 8-10, and the results of the council in Acts 15.

When these details are fully in hand, we should talk further.

As you can see none of paranoid Danoh's 'books about' need be mentioned, but historical work can really help.

And what is in the text? What are the actual words?
 

Danoh

New member
Clueless IP wrote "The most obvious indication in Acts of the sect of the Pharisees trying to have their say in the Christian church is that they want ceremonial and circumcision rules observed."

And yet, that was only an issue when the Gentiles came along, years later.

Meaning, you incompetent, said so called "Christian church" was Messianic (Law Keeping) just as the Lord had reminded them to continue in, in Matthew 15; in Matthew 23; etc.

Your reasoning ITSELF is now the result of years in books "about."

Sheesh, you can't even get this distintction right :chuckle:
 

Interplanner

New member
Clueless IP wrote "The most obvious indication in Acts of the sect of the Pharisees trying to have their say in the Christian church is that they want ceremonial and circumcision rules observed."

And yet, that was only an issue when the Gentiles came along, years later.

Meaning, you incompetent, said so called "Christian church" was Messianic (Law Keeping) just as the Lord had reminded them to continue in, in Matthew 15; in Matthew 23; etc.

Your reasoning ITSELF is now the result of years in books "about."

Sheesh, you can't even get this distintction right :chuckle:



Peter's vision experience was years later?
 

Danoh

New member
Peter's vision experience was years later?

You forget; you and I disagree on why Peter took issue with that vision in Acts 10.

You maintain he was being corrected (that he had been wrong, thus the vision towards correcting him).

I; that he was being updated (of a change).

The balance of my reply is rather long, so I'ved put it in
Spoiler
brackets so others can just go past it without having to scroll all the way down each time.

The Lord had previously commanded...

Spoiler


Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

And that is part of THEIR "mission."

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Even earlier, He had told them...

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And he had told them...

Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Within the Prophetic aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery, He is to return; Israel is to rise to their Prophesied glory, and THEN the Gentiles are to come to God - through ISRAEL's "mission."

But first His wrath upon that Unbelieving nation, then His mercy toward them, and then His mercy upon the Gentiles through Israel as His witnesses.

And He had not returned when the event described in Acts took place.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Why Jerusalem?

Matthew 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

What again as to His return first, after His wrath, and as to Jerusalem?

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

After what?

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. 60:6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD. 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee. 60:10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. 60:17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. 60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. 60:22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

But you and I both know this does not fit where you look learned to look at things from.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

All this is...is allowing the passages to read exactly as written, and then comparing verse with verse for their collective light on intended sense.

No different than the many other areas of life where noting differences and or similarities between things is needed.

This here is my car; not that one over there - this one here.

This here is my dish towel, this other one for wiping the windows.

That is all this is - the comparison of one thing (Scripture) with another (Scripture).

Case in point, when someone cones along, for example, and asserts that when Paul mentioned "the hope of Israel" in Acts 28:20, he was preaching Israel's mission to them, the above simple principle shows me they are wrong.

For not only was their mission no longer, but the hope Paul was referring to was the Resurrection.

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Acts 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Acts 24:21 Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.

Acts 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.

Acts 28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

 
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Danoh

New member
I'd say you're fully entrenched in your views, then.

40 years...how long Israel stumbled around in the wilderness; all the while practically a stone's throw from their promise...

For their having put their view over His...for 40 years...

Sorry to hear of your great loss, IP.

40 years is a long time to be...

"So close...and yet, so far away..." - Frankie Vali :chuckle:
 

Interplanner

New member
???

It has been very rich, and solidifying. I had the advantage of realizing I had to unlearn D'ism. I can't stand listening to their spox anymore.

Very soon Jesus will put both feet down on the Mt of Olives! It will be the greatest day of human history!--jregular ad by El Shaddai Ministry on Seattle "Christian" radio

No the greatest day, if you have the Spirit of God, was the crucifixion and the resurrection because it proved the worth of the sacrifice.

They have a completely different spirit.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
???

It has been very rich, and solidifying. I had the advantage of realizing I had to unlearn D'ism. I can't stand listening to their spox anymore.

Very soon Jesus will put both feet down on the Mt of Olives! It will be the greatest day of human history!--jregular ad by El Shaddai Ministry on Seattle "Christian" radio

No the greatest day, if you have the Spirit of God, was the crucifixion and the resurrection because it proved the worth of the sacrifice.

They have a completely different spirit.

Against the Lord's return, are ya'?
 

Interplanner

New member
Against the Lord's return, are ya'?


lol, not at all. Hope for it daily.

The fact is that there is nothing Judaic in the NT descriptions of the Lord's return. The descriptions of it are that it will happen quickly, procede to the world wide moment of justice quickly and quickly result in the people of God in the NHNE with Him. There is no drawn out geo-political half-baked events of 'justice' for Israel/against the nations etc in the NT statements about the 2nd coming, the main one (and most extensive) being 2 Peter 3.
 

SaulToPaul

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lol, not at all. Hope for it daily.

The fact is that there is nothing Judaic in the NT descriptions of the Lord's return. The descriptions of it are that it will happen quickly, procede to the world wide moment of justice quickly and quickly result in the people of God in the NHNE with Him. There is no drawn out geo-political half-baked events of 'justice' for Israel/against the nations etc in the NT statements about the 2nd coming, the main one (and most extensive) being 2 Peter 3.

What does your second coming look like?
 

Interplanner

New member
What does your second coming look like?


It is the very quickly-completed world wide judgement of God, in which all created things are destroyed. Those who believed the Gospel are preserved in Christ while those who rejected will suffer. There will be a great welcome for believers who accomplished the most in the mission while on earth. Those who believe will be 'in paradise' or in the NHNE, but indications are we should not think of it as physical as this one. Christianity does not make the sexual mistake that Islam makes about the after-life.

The reason for the quickness of the whole thing is several passages which move from this world's last day to the new creation in a matter of moments. 2 Pet 3, Heb 12, I Cor 15, I Thess 4. They have no geo-political events involving Israel or schemes of years etc, which are actually about things that took place in Judea in the mid-first century.
 
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