ECT Lucifer and Adam

nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Truster said:
Let me get this straight. You are questioning if Satan can be saved or that he has eaten from the tree of life?
Click to expand...

My statement about the tree of life was pure speculation. It could be true but I have no evidence to back it up. The statement about Satan not dying was in response to the assertion that Satan would be saved. If the Lake of Fire was made for the devil and his angels to be tormented day and night, that doesn't sound like death. So I don't see anywhere where scripture has angels dying. That's the distinction I see between Adam and Satan as far as qualifying for redemption goes.
 
T

Truster

New member
nikolai_42 said:
My statement about the tree of life was pure speculation. It could be true but I have no evidence to back it up. The statement about Satan not dying was in response to the assertion that Satan would be saved. If the Lake of Fire was made for the devil and his angels to be tormented day and night, that doesn't sound like death. So I don't see anywhere where scripture has angels dying. That's the distinction I see between Adam and Satan as far as qualifying for redemption goes.
Click to expand...

The good angels are not subject to death Luke 20:35, 36 KJV

The angels that fell will not become extinct because they face eternal damnation Mark 3:29 KJV

Eternal damnation is not popular, but it is a fact.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Truster said:
The good angels are not subject to death Luke 20:35, 36 KJV

The angels that fell will not become extinct because they face eternal damnation Mark 3:29 KJV

Eternal damnation is not popular, but it is a fact.
Click to expand...

Agreed. And that scripture in Luke 20 is very appropriate.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Truster said:
I have to ask. Were you genuinely asking questions or seeking to stimulate questions and reasoning?
Click to expand...

The only question(s) I asked was if Satan (or angels generally) ever died. And I did so because as far as I could see there was no evidence he ever will. So if that's what you are referring to, then it was phrased in the form of a question mainly because I didn't see any other answer. To be honest, the specific verse reference you quoted in Luke had escaped my memory on this occasion.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
What were the similarities between Lucifer and Adam that sin would be an issue to which both would succumb but only one could redemption be possible? What did they both possess? What was the incorporated provision?
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
jamie said:
Sin unless repented will result in death. Angels have perpetual life not immortality.

Satan will die once and possibly twice depending on him.
Click to expand...

And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-36

Sounds like immortality to me.
 
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
nikolai_42 said:
Sounds like immortality to me.
Click to expand...

How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations!

For you have said in your heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High."

Yet you shall be brought down to sheol, to the lowest depths of the pit. (Isaiah 14:12-15 NKJV)​

Sheol represents death, Satan will not be buried, he will lie in state.

You will not be joined with them in burial because you have destroyed your land and slain your people. (Isaiah 14:20 NKJV)​
 
T

Truster

New member
Cross Reference said:
What were the similarities between Lucifer and Adam that sin would be an issue to which both would succumb but only one could redemption be possible? What did they both possess? What was the incorporated provision?
Click to expand...

Similarities = both were created mutable and so both would sin.

Redemption would be possible for Adam = Through the Last Adam who is the redeemer.

They both possessed = the fact they were both created beings and therefore subjects to the will and purpose of the Almighty.

The incorporated provision= they would both glorify their Eternal Almighty.


I simplified it for you, but in essence:

Both were created mutable, but Adam would become immutable in the Last Adam. The standing of the holy in Messiah is far better and far greater than in they had in Adam or that Adam had.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
Truster said:
Similarities = both were created mutable and so both would sin.

Redemption would be possible for Adam = Through the Last Adam who is the redeemer.

They both possessed = the fact they were both created beings and therefore subjects to the will and purpose of the Almighty.

The incorporated provision= they would both glorify their Eternal Almighty.


I simplified it for you, but in essence:

Both were created mutable, but Adam would become immutable in the Last Adam. The standing of the holy in Messiah is far better and far greater than in they had in Adam or that Adam had.
Click to expand...

Why would you suppose Adam was subject to change? What does that mean in the scheme of things? Jesus was of the seed of Adam [not created]. Please explain why you believe He was immutable. OMT: what did they both have in common that made redemption possible?
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
Because of the fact/reality of "Redemption", Adam's transgression which separated man from God, was canceled out. By the shed blood of Jesus Christ was it accomplished. Lucifer could not enjoy such forgiveness/restoration because he could not be redeemed that he might "ask" for it. Blood was the commonality God factored into the creation of humankind whereby man might be saved, salvation being an act of his will. Man must "ask" for it. "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened."
Luke 11:9-10 (NASB) cf Rom 10:10.

Redemption being a fact, never requires faith to believe it.
 
T

Truster

New member
Cross Reference said:
Why would you suppose Adam was subject to change? What does that mean in the scheme of things? Jesus was of the seed of Adam [not created]. Please explain why you believe He was immutable. OMT: what did they both have in common that made redemption possible?
Click to expand...

OMT?
 
T

Truster

New member
Cross Reference said:
Why would you suppose Adam was subject to change? What does that mean in the scheme of things? Jesus was of the seed of Adam [not created]. Please explain why you believe He was immutable. OMT: what did they both have in common that made redemption possible?
Click to expand...

Adam was created in the image and likeness of Elohim. If Adam's nature was not mutable (subject to change) then he could not and would not have sinned.
Messiah was immutable because He was without spot or blemish, but in an act of recreation by the Father, Messiah ''became'' sin so that sin could be punished in the flesh.
The sins of His people were imputed to Him and the justness of Elohim was to be imputed to His own, in the application of redemption, at a predetermined point in time.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
Truster said:
Adam was created in the image and likeness of Elohim. If Adam's nature was not mutable (subject to change) then he could not and would not have sinned.
Click to expand...

So what do you believe God was after from Adam if He subjected him to "changeableness"?

Messiah was immutable because He was without spot or blemish, but in an act of recreation by the Father, Messiah ''became'' sin so that sin could be punished in the flesh.
Click to expand...

This isn't about "Messiah" but, since you brought it up, Adam was also sinless and changeable, why would you suppose Jesus would not be because He had not yet fulfilled His obligation in proving Himself to be "Messiah"?

Stay on topic, please.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top