Love versus Obedience

KerimF

New member
True Love could be bidirectional
A father may love/trust his son and his son may also love/trust him as well
But a master is not supposed to love/trust his slave though his slave may love/trust him.

True Obedience could be, at best, unidirectional
A father is not supposed to obey his son and his son may obey him.
A master is not supposed to obey his slave and his slave has to obey him.

So I wasn’t surprised that Jesus tells me to ‘love/trust’ my Creator, instead of obey/glorify God (as faithful Pagans, faithful Muslims and faithful Jews are supposed to obey/glorify their Creator).

This explains why Jesus, the incarnated divine Being, presents us the non-incarnated divine Being in Heaven as being a Father (The/Our/His Father).
What could represent true love on earth better than the relationship between a loving father and his beloved son?
I personally cannot find one.
This love unifies a father and his son so good to the point ANY outsider sees them as if they were ONE person having ONE will/power, not two persons.
Jesus called the divine unifying Spirit of Love the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit can, therefore, unifies a human with Jesus and the Father in Heaven if a human accepts this Spirit in him to guide him.
This Spirit can also unify two humans on earth if accepted by both by having a mutual trust to no limit.

So Jesus never says: “I am the Son of Father” or “I am the Son of my Father” because He is actually 'Son of God'; big difference.
Jesus came from God’s Realm (as a son of desert/mountain comes from a desert/mountain :) ). And God, as revealed by Jesus, is the One Will/Power of the Father in Heaven and Him (Jesus) who are unified, since before Creation, by the divine Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit.
So whoever sees or knows Jesus, he sees and knows the Father in Heaven as well.
In other words, Jesus is actually ‘the Living Word of God’, not ‘the Living Word of the Father only’.

Conclusion:
Only independent persons may have the chance to live the unconditional Love, as revealed and lived by Jesus, and let his soul live the divine joy of God’s Realm even on earth and for eternity
.
And if someone cannot, for one reason or another, perceive the existence of the Holy Spirit and/or its crucial role/power (in Heaven as on Earth) he has no choice but to follow/join a well-defined well-organized group, religious or political, and try his best to obey and observe its rules/law.
 

God's Truth

BANNED
Banned
True Love could be bidirectional
A father may love/trust his son and his son may also love/trust him as well
But a master is not supposed to love/trust his slave though his slave may love/trust him.

True Obedience could be, at best, unidirectional
A father is not supposed to obey his son and his son may obey him.
A master is not supposed to obey his slave and his slave has to obey him.

So I wasn’t surprised that Jesus tells me to ‘love/trust’ my Creator, instead of obey/glorify God (as faithful Pagans, faithful Muslims and faithful Jews are supposed to obey/glorify their Creator).

This explains why Jesus, the incarnated divine Being, presents us the non-incarnated divine Being in Heaven as being a Father (The/Our/His Father).
What could represent true love on earth better than the relationship between a loving father and his beloved son?
I personally cannot find one.
This love unifies a father and his son so good to the point ANY outsider sees them as if they were ONE person having ONE will/power, not two persons.
Jesus called the divine unifying Spirit of Love the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit can, therefore, unifies a human with Jesus and the Father in Heaven if a human accepts this Spirit in him to guide him.
This Spirit can also unify two humans on earth if accepted by both by having a mutual trust to no limit.

So Jesus never says: “I am the Son of Father” or “I am the Son of my Father” because He is actually 'Son of God'; big difference.
Jesus came from God’s Realm (as a son of desert/mountain comes from a desert/mountain :) ). And God, as revealed by Jesus, is the One Will/Power of the Father in Heaven and Him (Jesus) who are unified, since before Creation, by the divine Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit.
So whoever sees or knows Jesus, he sees and knows the Father in Heaven as well.
In other words, Jesus is actually ‘the Living Word of God’, not ‘the Living Word of the Father only’.

Conclusion:
Only independent persons may have the chance to live the unconditional Love, as revealed and lived by Jesus, and let his soul live the divine joy of God’s Realm even on earth and for eternity
.
And if someone cannot, for one reason or another, perceive the existence of the Holy Spirit and/or its crucial role/power (in Heaven as on Earth) he has no choice but to follow/join a well-defined well-organized group, religious or political, and try his best to obey and observe its rules/law.

Jesus says the saved have to keep obeying if they want to remain in his love, just as he obeyed his Father and remains in His love.

John 15:10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love.
 

KerimF

New member
Jesus says the saved have to keep obeying if they want to remain in his love, just as he obeyed his Father and remains in His love.
John 15:10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love.

Please tell me... if you obey your will, does this relate to obedience, rules or law?

In {John 15:10}, Jesus was simply obeying His will :) unless you cannot see that Jesus and the Father in Heaven have indeed One Will... not two (being unified by the Holy Spirit).
I and my Father are one. {John 10:30}

Similarly, since my will about the unconditional love towards all others happens to be about the same one that Jesus revealed and lived, living such love has nothing to do with obedience, rules or law. But, to please you, I can add that, yes in this respect, I obey Jesus Will which is my will too :)
I mean; I am glad that Jesus, unlike the great majority on earth, agrees with me on this, otherwise I would see myself (because of my will) a weird or abnormal human being.
So, thank you Jesus, you are indeed my loving Creator and Teacher.... You saved me from my confusion about love; besides many other things.
 

God's Truth

BANNED
Banned
Please tell me... if you obey your will, does this relate to obedience, rules or law?

We have to obey Jesus.

Jesus tells us what to do and what not to do.


In {John 15:10}, Jesus was simply obeying His will :) unless you cannot see that Jesus and the Father in Heaven have indeed One Will... not two (being unified by the Holy Spirit).
I and my Father are one. {John 10:30}

Similarly, since my will about the unconditional love towards all others happens to be about the same one that Jesus revealed and lived, living such love has nothing to do with obedience, rules or law. But, to please you, I can add that, yes in this respect, I obey Jesus Will which is my will too :)
Jesus tells us what to do and not to do to have HIS LOVE.

If you don't do what Jesus says, then you don't have his love and salvation.

I mean; I am glad that Jesus, unlike the great majority on earth, agrees with me on this,

Jesus agrees with you?

That is not how it works.

You are to agree with Jesus.


otherwise I would see myself (because of my will) a weird or abnormal human being.
So, thank you Jesus, you are indeed my loving Creator and Teacher.... You saved me from my confusion about love; besides many other things.

So then why are you going against doing what Jesus says?
 

KerimF

New member
Sorry, but how many times I have to repeat myself! :(

When I was teen (about 17) I knew that Jesus is my Creator because He, unlike any other one in human history, agrees with me on all what I discovered (at that time) about my own being and in the real world.
Naturedly, I continued my journey in life with Him... and the Father in Heaven while being guided by their unifying Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit.

But on your side, you are free to obey whoever you like as long this lets you feel that you are on the right path that leads to the everlasting life.

By the way, anyone can pity me as my Muslim friends do. They use telling me something like:
"It is sad that you, Karim, will end up in Allah's Hell while we will be in Allah's Paradise. We will miss you there".

So, I also understand if my Christian friends do the same and say:
"It is sad that you, Kerim, will end up in God's Hell while we will likely be in God's everlasting life".
 

God's Truth

BANNED
Banned
Sorry, but how many times I have to repeat myself! :(

When I was teen (about 17) I knew that Jesus is my Creator because He, unlike any other one in human history, agrees with me on all what I discovered (at that time) about my own being and in the real world.
Naturedly, I continued my journey in life with Him... and the Father in Heaven while being guided by their unifying Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit.

But on your side, you are free to obey whoever you like as long this lets you feel that you are on the right path that leads to the everlasting life.

By the way, anyone can pity me as my Muslim friends do. They use telling me something like:
"It is sad that you, Karim, will end up in Allah's Hell while we will be in Allah's Paradise. We will miss you there".

So, I also understand if my Christian friends do the same and say:
"It is sad that you, Kerim, will end up in God's Hell while we will likely be in God's everlasting life".

I didn't say that to you.

However, you should not say Jesus agrees with you; rather, you should say you agree with Jesus.

In addition, you should see that the Bible is God's teachings on how to love, and you not say it is wrong or not needed.
 

God's Truth

BANNED
Banned
Similarly, since my will about the unconditional love towards all others happens to be about the same one that Jesus revealed and lived, living such love has nothing to do with obedience, rules or law.

God's love is not unconditional.

God says He loves those who obey Jesus' teachings.
 

Lowly one

New member
Kerim that is exactly what I am struggling with. I think I have been religious all my life. I have a very severe terrorizing anxiety disorder. I have strived but I realize with my flesh and intellect. I realize true sons of God are by the spirit. Truly born again. I have tried to quit sin out of obedience but I still feel terrible. Please pray God leads me to what u say? A true relationship. Cause I’ve seen in life keenly observing Christians that those that are his actually know him.
 

KerimF

New member
I didn't say that to you.

Yes, you didn't and , I guess, you will never do... explicitly :)

However, you should not say Jesus agrees with you; rather, you should say you agree with Jesus.

I hope you will like the following updated version of my previous statement:

When I was teen (about 17) I noticed that Jesus, unlike any other one in human history, knew already, even about 2000 years ago, all what I discovered (at that time) about my own being and in the real world. It was a very clear sign, to me in the least, that He is indeed the all-knowledge teacher, my Creator.

In addition, you should see that the Bible is God's teachings on how to love, and you not say it is wrong or not needed.

Each part of the rest of the Bible was right and necessary for a certain period of time and usually for some people. But they are now obsolete (good souvenirs. if you like) since Jesus, the God's Living Word in person, gave the final update truths that a human being may need to know (in case aperson perceives a living soul in him which is defined by its own set of rules) about God's Realm and whatever could be related to it in this world.

God's Truth said:
God says He loves those who obey Jesus' teachings.

I wonder if you were able having a list of Jesus' rules that man should obey (obeying as in the army). Thank you.

By the way, since you have to see God as being the Father in Heaven only, I guess you have also no choice but seeing Him (the Father in Heaven) as a Supreme Ruler (looking for obedience). In other words, God (the Father in Heaven only; as you perceive) has existed before Creation with no need of the Holy Spirit and Jesus. And as you (besides many others) said, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were made by God (the Father in Heaven only) for man in order to tell us (thru them) how we can please Him (the Father in Heaven). Well, though every human is free to believe whatever he likes, this image of God reminds me the ancient Pagan religions with one difference; Pagans may have many gods/goddesses to obey and please... not just of one :)
 

KerimF

New member
Truly born again.

In these days, this mean usually that you joined a certain Christian Church or Denomination. Isn't it what you mean?

I have tried to quit sin out of obedience but I still feel terrible.

Do you mean you cannot stop hurting others in some situations; in the name of justice for example?
Do you mean you cannot forgive those who may hurt you, directly and/or indirectly?
 

God's Truth

BANNED
Banned
Yes, you didn't and , I guess, you will never do... explicitly :)



I hope you will like the following updated version of my previous statement:

When I was teen (about 17) I noticed that Jesus, unlike any other one in human history, knew already, even about 2000 years ago, all what I discovered (at that time) about my own being and in the real world. It was a very clear sign, to me in the least, that He is indeed the all-knowledge teacher, my Creator.



Each part of the rest of the Bible was right and necessary for a certain period of time and usually for some people. But they are now obsolete (good souvenirs. if you like) since Jesus, the God's Living Word in person, gave the final update truths that a human being may need to know (in case aperson perceives a living soul in him which is defined by its own set of rules) about God's Realm and whatever could be related to it in this world.



I wonder if you were able having a list of Jesus' rules that man should obey (obeying as in the army). Thank you.
The beautiful and powerful teachings of Jesus can be put in a list for study if you like.

By the way, since you have to see God as being the Father in Heaven only, I guess you have also no choice but seeing Him (the Father in Heaven) as a Supreme Ruler (looking for obedience). In other words, God (the Father in Heaven only; as you perceive) has existed before Creation with no need of the Holy Spirit and Jesus. And as you (besides many others) said, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were made by God (the Father in Heaven only) for man in order to tell us (thru them) how we can please Him (the Father in Heaven). Well, though every human is free to believe whatever he likes, this image of God reminds me the ancient Pagan religions with one difference; Pagans may have many gods/goddesses to obey and please... not just of one :)

If you do not believe the Holy Bible as God's written word and instructions, but rather demean them, then you go against God.
 

KerimF

New member
The beautiful and powerful teachings of Jesus can be put in a list for study if you like.

Oh, I expected that the list of Jesus' rules, you know, is clear and doesn't need to be studied further :(

If you do not believe the Holy Bible as God's written word and instructions, but rather demean them, then you go against God.

And to where will someone end up if he doesn't see God as a Supernatural Supreme King whose rules, to be obeyed, could be found on the entire Bible (not on Quran because it is for Muslims, not for Jews or Christians)? Got the point?
 

God's Truth

BANNED
Banned
Oh, I expected that the list of Jesus' rules, you know, is clear and doesn't need to be studied further :(
One of Jesus' teachings is to listen carefully to what he says, and the measure you use will be measured to you and more.
Another one is to study.

And to where will someone end up if he doesn't see God as a Supernatural Supreme King whose rules, to be obeyed, could be found on the entire Bible (not on Quran because it is for Muslims, not for Jews or Christians)? Got the point?

What do you mean not for Jews and Christians? The Bible talks about Jews and Gentiles and Christianity.
The Bible is for all people.
 

KerimF

New member
The Bible is for all people.

This is what millions of Christians (if not billions) are supposed to believe.
Meanwhile, Muslims say the same about their holy Quran, besides many other references also seen as holy.
And there are various religions/beliefs which have their own holy things that are supposed to be, for them in the least, for all people too.
On the other hand, Jews are not supposed to believe in Jesus as presented on the Gospel. They have their own holy books related to Moses and other Prophets..

Anyway, Jesus is clear about those for whom He came to save them from their confusions and doubts.
They are the ones who perceive (not just believe blindly) the existence of the Holy Spirit, the Divine Spirit of Unifying Love, in Heaven (in God) and on earth {Matthew 12:31-32}.

For instance, how do you perceive the Holy Spirit? Thank you.
 

God's Truth

BANNED
Banned
This is what millions of Christians (if not billions) are supposed to believe.
So make yourself clear. Do you believe all who want to be saved must go through Jesus Christi of the Bible?

Meanwhile, Muslims say the same about their holy Quran, besides many other references also seen as holy.
There is nothing in the Qur'an about being saved.

If someone wants to be saved, they must go to Jesus from the Bible.

And there are various religions/beliefs which have their own holy things that are supposed to be, for them in the least, for all people too.

There is NO NAME UNDER HEAVEN in which a person can be saved.

It someone wants to be saved, they must go through Jesus.

On the other hand, Jews are not supposed to believe in Jesus as presented on the Gospel.

The Jews are supposed to believe in Jesus and many have.

They have their own holy books related to Moses and other Prophets..

Moses and the Prophets spoke of Jesus who was to come, even though he was a mystery hidden.

Anyway, Jesus is clear about those for whom He came to save them from their confusions and doubts.
They are the ones who perceive (not just believe blindly) the existence of the Holy Spirit, the Divine Spirit of Unifying Love, in Heaven (in God) and on earth {Matthew 12:31-32}.


For instance, how do you perceive the Holy Spirit? Thank you.

We can talk about that more later after I see if you are just going to keep speaking against Jesus and the Bible.
 

KerimF

New member
The Jews are supposed to believe in Jesus and many have.
Moses and the Prophets spoke of Jesus who was to come, even though he was a mystery hidden.

I guess you are saying: "The today's Jews are supposed to believe in Jesus who didn't come yet". Otherwise, for which reason, do you think, they still call themselves Jews?!

We can talk about that more later after I see if you are just going to keep speaking against Jesus and the Bible.

I understand that you have your good reasons to avoid speaking about the Holy Spirit on which the entire Jesus message is based on.

This is why Jesus made it very clear {Matthew 12:31-32} that whoever cannot perceive the existence of the Holy Spirit and its unifying power, on earth as in Heaven, he is created just to serve life in the material world, in one way or another; as all other living things are created to do.

So I don't see where is the problem... unless you have a Gospel not like mine :)
 

God's Truth

BANNED
Banned
I guess you are saying: "The today's Jews are supposed to believe in Jesus who didn't come yet".

Jesus already came and they are supposed to believe in him.

Did Moses come again? No, of course not, but Jews believe in Moses.

You don't have sense.

Otherwise, for which reason, do you think, they still call themselves Jews?!

People who are blood related to Abraham through Isaac and Jacob consider themselves ethnically Jew.

However, being blood related to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob doesn't matter to God anymore, for the promise to Abraham was about Abraham's SEED, Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ came, a blood relative to Abraham came, it only matters now to God about the blood of Jesus shed on the cross.

It only matters now if one comes to God through Jesus' blood.

Any person calling themselves a Jew and rejects Jesus is not a child of God's.

Jesus told the people who were calling themselves blood related to Abraham that if they had faith in Jesus, then they would truly be Abraham's descendants.

Paul teaches that same thing when he later comes into the scriptures.

I understand that you have your good reasons to avoid speaking about the Holy Spirit on which the entire Jesus message is based on.
No you don't understand.

This is why Jesus made it very clear {Matthew 12:31-32} that whoever cannot perceive the existence of the Holy Spirit and its unifying power, on earth as in Heaven, he is created just to serve life in the material world, in one way or another; as all other living things are created to do.

You prove you have no understanding.

Speak plainly about your beliefs.

Do you believe all have to go through Jesus to be saved?

Do you believe the Bible is the written Word of God and must be heard?

If you don't answer plainly, then you are deceitful and I won't directly speak about the Holy Spirit with you.

So I don't see where is the problem... unless you have a Gospel not like mine :)

The only gospel is the one in the Holy Bible.

So last time I am going to ask you before I stay away from you---do you believe the Bible is the teaching of the gospel one must believe and hear to be saved?
 
Last edited:

clefty

New member
Jesus already came and they are supposed to believe in him.

Did Moses come again? No, of course not, but Jews believe in Moses.

You don't have sense.



People who are blood related to Abraham through Isaac and Jacob consider themselves ethnically Jew.

However, being blood related to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob doesn't matter to God anymore, for the promise to Abraham was about Abraham's SEED, Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ came, a blood relative to Abraham came, it only matters now to God about the blood of Jesus shed on the cross.

It only matters now if one comes to God through Jesus' blood.

Any person calling themselves a Jew and rejects Jesus is not a child of God's.

Jesus told the people who were calling themselves blood related to Abraham that if they had faith in Jesus, then they would truly be Abraham's descendants.

Paul teaches that same thing when he later comes into the scriptures.


No you don't understand.




You prove you have no understanding.

Speak plainly about your beliefs.

Do you believe all have to go through Jesus to be saved?

Do you believe the Bible is the written Word of God and must be heard?

If you don't answer plainly, then you are deceitful and I won't directly speak about the Holy Spirit with you.



The only gospel is the one in the Holy Bible.

So last time I am going to ask you before I stay away from you---do you believe the Bible is the teaching of the gospel one must believe and hear to be saved?

ALL this was NOT directed at me...

I am not KarimF



I am hoping this is only an error...

and I don't need this to imagine how Yah feels when others abuse Him His Name and what He did or did NOT say...
 
Top