ECT Look at a Parable

[OCTOBER23]

IT IS A FISHER OF MEN - PAIR OF DOCKS - PARADOX

 

[kayaker]

I appreciate your post rainee, quite fascinating and abstract!

I perceive a parable kinda as you suggest, a parallel to an unseen scenario or object, but not the actual scenario or object, itself. A shadow depicts an object, unseen to us, that is in the light, but the shadow is not the object. A snapshot of the object is not the object, but gets us even closer to true knowledge of the object than a shadow, without actually visualizing the unseen object. The pic gets us closer providing some sense of depth and color, but we cannot see the back side, top or bottom of the object from the pic.

The difference between a parallel (the analogy) and its actual object exists in a continuum as one's perception moves from the parallel, toward the true object... kinda like an object in pure darkness slowly comes into view as now a dim light slowly becomes brighter, and the object turns to expose all sides in three dimensions. Yet, I'm not suggesting illumination is necessarily linear considering now the use of a on-off light switch v. a dimmer switch that can be slowly or rapidly moved from total darkness, to total light.

So, while exploring a parable, a parallel to reality, the Holy Spirit becomes the hand on the dimmer switch, so to speak.

The verses in Matthew, including those you provided, in Matthew 13:10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, reveal Jesus' distinction between a "multitude", and a disciple. The discussion of this distinction between a 'believer' and a disciple is typically incendiary and digresses. I proffer there are multitudes of believers in disciples clothing. And, you can readily imagine the digression from there. Believers inherently have more faith than disciples, and I would like to think such would be a neutralizing offset... but, to my experience, it has not. Most churches have some regimen of achieving discipleship. While Jesus illuminated His door into discipleship in John 8:30 KJV, John 8:31 KJV, John 8:32 KJV... and, how many times have we heard John 8:32 KJV? I proffer such is utterly and totally taken out of context.

If you are interested, I'd be happy to explore this notion further. But, do recognize, such a discussion can rapidly degrade as you already have imagined.

kayaker

 

[jamie]

But a parabola can be literal, right, Jamie?

Oh, I thought you were referring to parabolic stories not parabolas.

Parabolic stories are parables which by definition are an analogy or an allegorical illustration.

 

[oatmeal]

Ok folks.

Years ago an excellent teacher from Covenant College, Tennessee came to a large and old Presbyterian Church in a city about an hour from the town in Florida where I lived.

I came with a small group to hear him and sat in a rather large classroom full of
interested listeners.

And of all the things he said, he said among them that because the Gospel of Luke in Chapter 15 started out like this:

Luke 15:1-2

It could be seen that the parable from the Lord Jesus that followed about the Lost Sheep Luke 15:3-7 was directed toward or because of the attitude showing in Pharisees and the teachers of the law:


Then Professor K said that the Parable of the Lost Coin in Luke 15:8-10 was told right after with no break or pause and therefore told a part of His same message:


And then Dr K added the parable of the Lost Son begins like this in Luke 15:11


And this meant that yet again The Lord was still speaking to, and/or because of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who had muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

So his speaking finished with me understanding all three parables had been sparked because of what was said by the Pharisees and the teachers of the law and all three parables were together directed toward their attitude and mutterings.

And after Dr K finished we all smiled at each other and thanked him and thanked the men and ladies of the church who had invited him to speak and us to listen.

And once we were outside I looked up at the night sky clear and sparkling, excited and wanting to burst and did not realize that not everyone there heard what I heard.

Because the parable of the Lost Son is not just about a prodigal son but also about an Older One. It is about this isolated, lost, "way off in some field" feeling,
seemingly forgotten, unhappy son.

If the Pharisees and the teachers of the law had ears to ear they would have heard a heart stopping with mystery and unexplained joy type message.
But, alas, most if not all of them did not have the ears to hear.

However, eleven disciples surely did, though perhaps they could not understand it because later they would say Acts 1:6


And now some 2000 years later give or take, very few may wonder what Jewish Apostles hoped for or believed. And the letter to the Hebrews may become a most
quoted reference for non Jewish people who are believers.

But I believe the parable is declaring something only those who live by faith should hear - and it will sound different now then it did before.. Because now
the three parables aren't to Jewish hard-hearted religious people, or the Jewish chosen frozen, or the Jewish religiously confident people. And the prodigal son has changed too, imho.

Dr. K is right. The three parables are used to illustrate the same principle.

Adding to that, what is commonly called the parable of the prodigal son not only has the additional character of the embittered older son, but most importantly, the Forgiving Father. That I learned from Dr. W.

Jesus' parables, or more accurately was about the Son declaring the Father, John 1:18

 

[rainee]

Oh, I thought you were referring to parabolic stories not parabolas.

Parabolic stories are parables which by definition are an analogy or an allegorical illustration.

Oh Jamie. There you go throwing around all those words that have a history and meaning..."analogy," "allegory"...

I can't remember altogether but I think allegory came from the idea of a bunch of snooty high minded Greeks all meeting together like in the market place or something, and they could talk in front of everyone out in the open without ever actually saying the subject. An earthy example of gossip could be fascinating and possibly hilariously funny in the right hands using the idea from that word origin I bet...

And analogy
which could be Greek "ana" for "of each" (there are lots of meanings for prefixes like ana in Greek)
And Greek logos to Latin for ratio or judging or reckoning or - heck -
this is what it says at the etymology dictionary:
1540s (perhaps early 15c.), from Old French analogie or directly from Latin analogia, from Greek analogia "proportion," from ana- "upon, according to" (see ana-) + logos "ratio," also "word, speech, reckoning" (see logos). A mathematical term used in a wider sense by Plato.

 

[intojoy]

Well, first go look up the definition of a parable.



Does the definition refer you toward the word parabola rather than toward the word parallel?



The word in math means something else so that is actually misleading - but at one time the word "parabola" came from the word "parable.



That means "parabola" can't tell you what a parable is because "parable" is what was in mind when the word "parabola" was first created and used.



However, "parallel" does help. It goes along side. It never touches but it goes along side. Now if you see spiritual worlds you don't need parables

but if you are human then a parable is communicating something we can't see by saying something that goes along side that invisible truth

for, perhaps, a short ways. Maybe a very short way, I don't know cuz - well - I'm human and have no idea how far it can go. But all who believe and have studied parables have agreed - they only are intended to go part of the way.



So go back to "parabola" the "mirror-symmetrical curve" - and see.

One side of the curve mirrors the other side. So there ya go. Its sides go along mirroring each other all the way around. Nice.



But what about parables which is where that whole idea came from?

The Lord would often speak in parables...



Matthew 13:10-11







Now here is the interesting thing: The disciples did not therefore understand the parables just because He said what He did, no.

He then explained the parables so they could know.



And that is how I think it has been for 2000 years or so.



I think some get little bits and pass them around and then down and generation after generation we build on what has been given.



Also inherent in the entire idea is that there is to be growth:

Matthew 13:12





Which means two things that I can think of: A) You can't grow if you know it all, and B) No one knows it all.



There is another problem that I think is inherent: The Word is alive and active. It can mean perhaps more than one thing during different times.



Deuteronomy 25:4 is one example. I believe it means what it says at appropriate times.

But I also believe 1 Corinthians 9:9-10 is to be taken seriously.



Anybody want to correct or add to this before I go on?



I would appreciate it if you want to say some something - if you did!

The parabolic method of teaching was instituted after the national rejection of the Messiaship of Yeshua by Israel on the basis of demon possession.

The purpose of the parabolic method of teaching was to hide the truth concerning the kingdom of Heaven fro that generation of Israel.

The command to repent and be baptized unto salvation was given to individual jews guilty of the unpardonable sin of chapter 12.

Physical salvation from the A. D. 70 destruction.

We are now living in the Mystery kingdom phase of God's kingdom program. The parables each make one point. Example: three measures of meal - Romanism , Greek Orthodox, Protestantism - all three dominate the church age and all three have a degree of false teaching symbolized by the leaven. Example: the mustard tree grew into the monstrosity of today's Christiandom
And the birds (demons) nest in its branches to promote false teachings. Example: the soil with good ground are believers who learn the deep things of the word of God, the rocky ground - no in depth bible study, the thorns - in depth knowledge that is nullified by the worries and cares of this world's economic system, wayside - umbelievers

 

[Simon Baker]

The parabolic method of teaching was instituted after the national rejection of the Messiaship of Yeshua by Israel on the basis of demon possession.

The purpose of the parabolic method of teaching was to hide the truth concerning the kingdom of Heaven fro that generation of Israel.

The command to repent and be baptized unto salvation was given to individual jews guilty of the unpardonable sin of chapter 12.

Physical salvation from the A. D. 70 destruction.

We are now living in the Mystery kingdom phase of God's kingdom program. The parables each make one point. Example: three measures of meal - Romanism , Greek Orthodox, Protestantism - all three dominate the church age and all three have a degree of false teaching symbolized by the leaven. Example: the mustard tree grew into the monstrosity of today's Christiandom
And the birds (demons) nest in its branches to promote false teachings. Example: the soil with good ground are believers who learn the deep things of the word of God, the rocky ground - no in depth bible study, the thorns - in depth knowledge that is nullified by the worries and cares of this world's economic system, wayside - umbelievers

Good Post. Interesting Interpretation, Did You See That, Or Hear It/Read It ? Is That From Your Insight ?

 

[intojoy]

Good Post. Interesting Interpretation, Did You See That, Or Hear It/Read It ? Is That From Your Insight ?

Ariel.org

 

[rainee]

That's not what Christ said. He said began to speak in parables to hide further truth from those who'd rejected what He already told them.

Christ's parables weren't intended to reveal deeper truth to those who heard them. They were intended to conceal it.

First of all Musterion didn't He quote Scripture when He said what He did about their ears?
Then wasn't He speaking prophecy?
And so showing something was being fulfilled?

True this did not show anything to some of them living then but it did to some - the disciples - especially when they looked back, right?

Even now we can look back and be taught something was going on and fulfilling prophecy in an important way, yes?

Parables are like prophecy maybe.

Anyway John 16:25 says he spoke figuratively even to the disciples, yes?

We're human afterall

 

[rainee]

Dr. K is right. The three parables are used to illustrate the same principle.

Adding to that, what is commonly called the parable of the prodigal son not only has the additional character of the embittered older son, but most importantly, the Forgiving Father. That I learned from Dr. W.

Jesus' parables, or more accurately was about the Son declaring the Father, John 1:18

Maybe.
I have a hard time agreeing with anything you say because I fear the underlying position you have.

 

[rainee]

...

The command to repent and be baptized unto salvation was given to individual jews guilty of the unpardonable sin of chapter 12.

Physical salvation from the A. D. 70 destruction.
...

John the Baptist came first, why did he baptize?
Why was the Lord baptized by him?

What would provide the physical salvation from the destruction other than knowing it was coming and running away when it did?

I love you Intojoy

 

[kayaker]

The parabolic method of teaching was instituted after the national rejection of the Messiaship of Yeshua by Israel on the basis of demon possession.

The purpose of the parabolic method of teaching was to hide the truth concerning the kingdom of Heaven fro that generation of Israel.

Yet, there were those who were believers (John 8:30 KJV). And, Jesus revealed a certain "truth" that converted His believers into disciples (John 8:31 KJV, John 8:32 KJV). I proffer Stephen was present during Jesus' dialogue with those plotting His crucifixion (John 8:37 KJV). I proffer even Paul's disciple Ananias who laid hand on Paul was present at that same event.

The command to repent and be baptized unto salvation was given to individual jews guilty of the unpardonable sin of chapter 12.

Did Someone lie saying a sin was unpardonable in the first place???

Physical salvation from the A. D. 70 destruction.

We are now living in the Mystery kingdom phase of God's kingdom program. The parables each make one point. Example: three measures of meal - Romanism , Greek Orthodox, Protestantism - all three dominate the church age and all three have a degree of false teaching symbolized by the leaven. Example: the mustard tree grew into the monstrosity of today's Christiandom
And the birds (demons) nest in its branches to promote false teachings. Example: the soil with good ground are believers who learn the deep things of the word of God, the rocky ground - no in depth bible study, the thorns - in depth knowledge that is nullified by the worries and cares of this world's economic system, wayside - umbelievers

No mystery about my kingdom 'phase'. Sorry you're not standing in the light. Is that some kind of parable your rabbi proffers? The 'hiding of the truth' began even farther back than 8th century B.C. Isaiah 6:9, 10, 11 that Jesus referred to discerning a multitude believer from a disciple in Matthew 13:10, 11, 13, 14. The entire OT is veiled on certain matters, parables are prima facie evidence symbolic of the veil. The 'hiding of the truth' began even 4k B.C. in Genesis 4:15 KJV.

Has your dr. frucktenheimer solved the mark of Cain? I suspect such is indeed a mystery to you both! Along those lines, Cain's great...grandson Lamech (Genesis 4:17, 18) prophesied the arrival generation of Messiah in Genesis 4:24 KJV being "seventy and sevenfold" generations. Take a look at Luke 3:38, and begin counting with God is generation #1, Adam generation #2, Seth #3... and so forth. Jesus is the "seventy and sevenfold" generation from Almighty God, inclusively. Meanwhile, Jewish theologians suggest "sevenfold" (Genesis 4:15 KJV) and "seventy and sevenfold" (Genesis 4:24 KJV) are merely "undesignated coincidences". Forgive me that I'm often underwhelmed with un-illuminated "Jewish" renderings who wouldn't unveil that little mystery if they perceived it. If that 77-fold mystery had been discerned in antiquity, it would have been scrubbed from the Books of Moses! So, why aren't the lights on, on that rather remarkable "undesignated coincidence"?

Jesus spoke truth, and the specific truth of John 8:32 KJV eludes the multitude of believers, not disciples. Jesus' divine paternity was challenged in John 8:13 KJV after Jesus said He was the "the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life" (John 8:12 KJV). Isn't the light of life the truth (John 8:32 KJV)?

Jesus said He and His father were TWO witnesses who testify to Jesus' divine paternity in John 8:17, 18. Witnesses testify, do they not? How about rendering up those two divine testimonies of those two Divine Witness that we all might receive the truth (John 8:30 KJV, John 8:31 KJV, John 8:32 KJV).

That's a mystery for sure! The parables in and of themselves are a testimony to deeper mysteries... so, how about asking your rabbi to render up these two Divine testimonies? Jesus did say He and His Father were two witnesses, did He not (John 8:17, 18)? I'd really like to hear his answers. His answers would edify his discipleship that Jesus offered (John 8:31 KJV).

kayaker

 

[jamie]

I can't remember altogether but I think allegory came from the idea of a bunch of snooty high minded Greeks...

Do you mean like Paul?

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh, but he of the free woman was by promise. Which things are an allegory for these are the two covenants. (Galatians 4:23-24)​

 

[rainee]

Do you mean like Paul?

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh, but he of the free woman was by promise. Which things are an allegory for these are the two covenants. (Galatians 4:23-24)​

Jamie do I mean the birth of a word is because of Paul?

No. Not here anyway. I don't know if a word was created because of him?

Word origins are a study - etymology.

What Paul says is the inspired word of God.
However, thinking Paul knew the word he was using might be of aid to us in understanding him.
Ok?

 

[oatmeal]

Maybe.
I have a hard time agreeing with anything you say because I fear the underlying position you have.

Good, healthy sense of skepticism is a good thing.

Don't take my word for it.

Check it out for yourself.

Acts 17:11. John 5:39

II Timothy 2:15

A wise student of God's word is not gullible, but wants to substantiate what he is taught by his own searching.

Good for you!

Oh, the reason I enjoy scriptures is that it is truth. Truth that dispels the darkness of all errors. I learned that by checking tradition against the benchmark of scripture. What some consider gospel on this website is nothing more than pagan idols mingled with intentionally sloppily and deceitfully used scripture.

My motivation is to love God with all my heart and soul and mind and strength

 

[intojoy]

John the Baptist came first, why did he baptize?
BECAUSE JN WAS TO COME AND PREPARE ISRAEL NOT FOR THE WORK OF THE CROSS BUT FOR THE COMING MESSIANIC KING AND MESSIANIC KINGDOM

THE MESSIANIC KINGDOM OR GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM WAS PREACHED BY JN

THE MESSIAH WAS IN TOWN


Why was the Lord baptized by him?
JESUS WAS GOING TO OFFER THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL JUST AS JN WAS TEACHING AND JESUS IDENTIFIED WITH JNS MESSAGE THRU BAPTISM - A JEWISH RITUAL THAT IDENTIFIED ONE WITH A PERSON MOVEMENT OR TEACHING



What would provide the physical salvation from the destruction other than knowing it was coming and running away when it did?
THINK ABOUT KADESH BARNEA THE PEOPLE DID NOT LOSE SALVATION BUT LOST ENTRANCE TO THE PROMISE LAND

MT 12 RECORDS THE UNPARDONABLE SIN

RESULTED IN A PROPHECY FROM JESUS THAT JERUSALEM AND THE JEWISH TEMPLE WOULD BE DESTROYED

HEBREWS WAS WRITTEN AT THE TIME WHEN THIS PROPHECY WAS ABOUT TO FALL AND THE LETTER WARNS JEWISH BELIEVERS TO REMAIN IN THE FAITH DESPITE SEVERE JEWISH PERSECUTION

THE JEWISH BELIEVERS CONSIDERED HIDING THEIR CHRISTIANITY BUT WERE WARNED THAT THEY WOULD SUFFER PHYSICAL DEATH AD 70



I love you Intojoy

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Maybe.
I have a hard time agreeing with anything you say because I fear the underlying position you have.

No doubt by listening to men who have placed that fear in your mind.

I would be more careful about those people who use the fear of others to hide other lies they speak.

You should know that Rainee.

Anyway the OT meaning of the parable is "dark sayings".

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

LA

 

[jamie]

Jamie do I mean the birth of a word is because of Paul?

No. Not here anyway. I don't know if a word was created because of him?

Word origins are a study - etymology.

What Paul says is the inspired word of God.
However, thinking Paul knew the word he was using might be of aid to us in understanding him.
Ok?

You're talking over my head. If you want me to understand what you are saying you need to keep it simple. I'm not well educated.

 

[patrick jane]

You're talking over my head. If you want me to understand what you are saying you need to keep it simple. I'm not well educated.

i guarantee Paul did not "make up" ANY words, Paul "kept it simple". nobody explains it better. KJV for me - atrol:

 

[serpentdove]

Parables are spiritual truths expressed using earthly metaphors.

Yes, an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.

"Parables. Design of: Bring under conviction (2 Sam. 12:1–6), Teach a spiritual truth (Is. 5:1–6), Illustrate a point (Luke 10:25–37), Fulfill prophecy (Matt. 13:34, 35), Conceal truth from the unbelieving (Matt. 13:10–16)." Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1996). Nelson’s quick reference topical Bible index (p. 468). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.