ECT 'Kosmos' vs. 'Gea' re the land of Israel.

Jerry Shugart

New member
But 'kosmos' is used for world as early as Jn 3 which is way before mid-Acts which is MAD, I mean, madness. God loved the 'kosmos' in 3 and provided a sacrifice which satisfied divine justice. The 'kosmos' was made through the Word, but the 'kosmos' did not receive him, ch 1. Obviously, 'kosmos' in these is wider than Israel.

Yes, that is right. And an understanding of that fact leads to the conclusion that the events mentioned in the 24th chapter of Matthew remain in the future. The Lord Jesus' words in that chapter were in regard to answering His disciples' question here concerning the "end of the age":

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

Earlier the Lord Jesus spoke the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world (kosmos); the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear"
(Mt. 13:37-43).​

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the "end of the age", the "end of this age." He also makes it clear that the harvest will take place in the field, and He says that the "field is the world" (kosmos).

There has never been a world-wide harvest so the end of the age remains in the future and the Lord Jesus' description of events in Chapter 24 of Matthew likewise remain in the future. We can also see that those from "all nations" will be judged when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt.25:31-33, 41).​

It is obvious to anyone with a knowledge of world history that these things have not yet happened so they will be fulfilled in the future!
 

Interplanner

New member
Yes, that is right. And an understanding of that fact leads to the conclusion that the events mentioned in the 24th chapter of Matthew remain in the future. The Lord Jesus' words in that chapter were in regard to answering His disciples' question here concerning the "end of the age":

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

Earlier the Lord Jesus spoke the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world (kosmos); the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear"
(Mt. 13:37-43).​

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the "end of the age", the "end of this age." He also makes it clear that the harvest will take place in the field, and He says that the "field is the world" (kosmos).

There has never been a world-wide harvest so the end of the age remains in the future and the Lord Jesus' description of events in Chapter 24 of Matthew likewise remain in the future. We can also see that those from "all nations" will be judged when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt.25:31-33, 41).​

It is obvious to anyone with a knowledge of world history that these things have not yet happened so they will be fulfilled in the future!



That's true of 24B but not A, on either side of v29. Before 29 the details are Judean and 1st century (this gen).

You have also assumed what an end of the age is. It might be the end of the old covenant, with the temple being torn down. Or end of the Law as such, or Judaism.

But more important, there does not seem to be any gap between those 1st century Judean events and the world wide judgement of 29+ BUT THERE OBVIOUSLY HAS BEEN ONE. This delay is implied in 'only the Father knows' and in Mk 13's parable of the return of the master, with its 4 options.

One of the fundamental tasks of any serious NT theology is to express how the apostles handled the delay of the world wide judgement. Paul is so certain of it being in that generation, that he does not entertain any delay concept at all such as found in 2 Peter 3. Maybe that's what made Paul's letters 'hard to understand.'

By the way, there is a view that there has been a world-wide HARVEST not judgement with the fact that Paul said twice that the whole world had been reached.
 

Rivers

New member
Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the "end of the age", the "end of this age." He also makes it clear that the harvest will take place in the field, and He says that the "field is the world" (kosmos).

There has never been a world-wide harvest so the end of the age remains in the future and the Lord Jesus' description of events in Chapter 24 of Matthew likewise remain in the future. We can also see that those from "all nations" will be judged when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth

The term "age" (AIWN) was used synonymously with "generation" in scripture (e.g. Colossians 1:26). Thus, "the end of the age" (Matthew 24:3) doesn't have to refer to anything other than the end of the "generation" that was already present during the apostolic era (Matthew 24:34).

Moreover, Jesus spoke of both the final judgement (Matthew 16:27-28) and the final resurrection (John 11:25-26) taking place before some of those of his own generation would die.

The apostles also understood that they were living "at the completion of the ages" (1 Corinthians 10:11) and that Jesus himself appeared at "the consummation of the ages" (Hebrews 9:26).
 

Rivers

New member
When in the first century did those things happen?

The apostolic testimony ends prior to the end of that generation.

However, my understanding is that Jesus and the apostles were inspired by holy spirit to speak the truth (Hebrews 2:3-4). Hence, I have no choice other than to believe that their predictions came true.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
The apostolic testimony ends prior to the end of that generation.

However, my understanding is that Jesus and the apostles were inspired by holy spirit to speak the truth (Hebrews 2:3-4). Hence, I have no choice other than to believe that their predictions came true.

I do not think that "generation" is the correct translation here:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk. 21: 32-35).​

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "generation" here also means "family," and in this instance it is referring to the family of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So Luke and Matthew are writing that the Jewish nation will not pass away before these things take place.

In fact, this is not the first time that such assurance had been given to the Israelites, as witnessed by these words:

"Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: If this fixed order departs From before Me, declares the LORD, Then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever"
(Jer.31:35-36).​

According to the Lord as long as the sun and moon remain in the sky the nation of Israel will remain "being a nation" before Him. So there is nothing odd about the Lord Jesus telling the Israelites that "this family shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled," especially with the great tribulation in view.
 

Danoh

New member
It is the "til all" that points to and brings out the subjunctive.

:doh:

As in...

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
 

Rivers

New member
I do not think that "generation" is the correct translation here:

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "generation" here also means "family," and in this instance it is referring to the family of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So Luke and Matthew are writing that the Jewish nation will not pass away before these things take place.

The critical problem with defining GENEA as "family" in Matthew 24:34 is that it isn't consistent with all of the 40 others uses of GENEA in the apostolic writings which mean a "generation." Moreover, since the normal definition of a "generation" makes perfectly good sense in the context of Matthew 24:34, it's not reasonable to think an unusual definition is the correct one only this particular verse.


According to the Lord as long as the sun and moon remain in the sky the nation of Israel will remain "being a nation" before Him. So there is nothing odd about the Lord Jesus telling the Israelites that "this family shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled," especially with the great tribulation in view.

Even if this were the case, it doesn't logically follow that this would require that the prophecies are not fulfilled yet. For example, if "all Israel" was saved during the apostolic era (Romans 11:25-26), they would still remain God's people. I don't know of anyone who argues that fulfilled prophecy means the end of the family of Israel.
 
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Interplanner

New member
The critical problem with defining GENEA as "family" in Matthew 24:34 is that it isn't consistent with all of the 40 others uses of GENEA in the apostolic writings which mean a "generation." Moreover, since the normal definition of a "generation" makes perfectly good sense in the context of Matthew 24:34, it's not reasonable to think an unusual definition is the correct one only this particular verse.




Even if this were the case, it doesn't logically follow that this would require that the prophecies are not fulfilled yet. For example, if "all Israel" was saved during the apostolic era (Romans 11:25-26), they would still remain God's people. I don't know of anyone who argues that fulfilled prophecy means the end of the family of Israel.



Well, two things happened in that generation that break up the previous continuity.
1, the kingdom of God was taken from the leadership of Israel and given to a nation that would produce its fruit. Since some of those at least producing its fruit were Jews, there has obviously been a play on the word 'nation' (ethne).

2, whoever among Israel does not join the mission of the Gospel, says Peter in Acts 3, will be disinherited/extirpated.

3, the judgement of the destruction of Jerusalem was the fulfillment of all that was written, Lk 21. That would be very similar to the warnings in Acts 2, 3 that a final warning was being given through Christ and his apostles. Even before the DoJ, Paul says that the wrath of God has come completely on Israel.

4, another 'Israel' is explained. At first it sounds like a sub-group, but Paul moves right along to show that it is "us" (believers) all through Rom 9-11. Which is what he said in many other places about the believers. They are one body; there is no 2P2P fracture of the Christian believers as a group.
 
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