KOA's Fred Ebert Rejects Our Debate Offer

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Alate_One

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If the creature you're trying to portray is fictional then I'm going to put it in the "fictional" kind. :)
I wouldn't give you something that is fictional.

Then it shouldn't be difficult for you to find a few in situ descriptions. Perhaps even a photo or two. Map locations. Strata.
The first is Archeopteryx. All of the 8 specimens come from Germany. Specifically, the Solnhofen limestone

The second one is the fossil I have already linked two pictures of (Anchornis huxleyi) and already mentioned the location. Tiaojishan Formation

The last one is a modern chicken so your strata will have to be your dinner plate.

I can't really get any more specific since none of the papers are publicly available and I don't have time currently to hunt them down

Birds almost certainly aren't all one kind.
But they're a group unto themselves yes?

And I don't think I've ever said kinds are obvious. And I don't think I ever said that everything with feathers is a bird.
I said "Those are Feathers, Stripe" and you said "So it's a bird, then?"

So you have a single event that deposited tons of fine ash in one location? I find that difficult to believe! If you had a photo of the in situ fossil this would be a lot easier.
It wasn't a single event but successive eruptions. Did you forget about Mt. St. Helens? Why is that difficult to believe when we've seen it happen?

But I guarantee you that the stuff we're talking about was.
Why? because it has a fossil in it?

Uh huh. And what about these things precludes the presence of water around them?
If you look at deposits formed by pyroclastic flows today, they are generally sans water. Why should we assume water if there's no evidence for it?

FYI Pompeii
 

Stripe

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I wouldn't give you something that is fictional.
What are you talking about. You give us evolution all the time. :)

The first is Archeopteryx. All of the 8 specimens come from Germany. Specifically, the Solnhofen limestone
Well, that's interesting. Limestone, eh? How do you think a bird got buried in limestone? And how did he get squashed flat? I read the Wiki explanations. Do you agree with them?

And the site also has dragonflies. Do you think the dragonflies got buried when the lagoon was water or mud?

attachment.php


The second one is the fossil I have already linked two pictures of (Anchornis huxleyi) and already mentioned the location. Tiaojishan Formation
I thought he was microraptor gui?

The last one is a modern chicken so your strata will have to be your dinner plate.
I wondered why I was suddenly hungry. :firechyld

But they're a group unto themselves yes?
They're all birds. :)

I said "Those are Feathers, Stripe" and you said "So it's a bird, then?"
Yeah. I did say that, didn't I? :)

It wasn't a single event but successive eruptions.
OK. So how far apart were these eruptions? And how thick was the layer that buried the fossil?

Why? because it has a fossil in it?
Call it an educated guess. :)

If you look at deposits formed by pyroclastic flows today, they are generally sans water. Why should we assume water if there's no evidence for it?
Why should we assume no water if there is no evidence of absence? :idunno:

FYI - have you ever seen the people (and dog) they dug out of the ash at Pompeii? I have. Sobering stuff. :plain:
 

Alate_One

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Well, that's interesting. Limestone, eh? How do you think a bird got buried in limestone? And how did he get squashed flat? I read the Wiki explanations. Do you agree with them?
Sounds pretty good to me. But I'm no geologist.

I thought he was microraptor gui?
Different feathered dinosaur. There are LOTS of feathered dinosaurs from the Liaoning region.

They're all birds. :)
*Why* are they birds? Feathers?


OK. So how far apart were these eruptions? And how thick was the layer that buried the fossil?
As I said, I don't know the details, I'd have to find the original paper. I had the Anchiornis paper posted in our hall but I think someone ran off with it.

Call it an educated guess. :)
You haven't proven the educated part.

Why should we assume no water if there is no evidence of absence? :idunno:
Neither of us are experts in this area. I suggest you ask gsweet about the formation of the specifics of the rock layer. I'd be interested myself.

FYI - have you ever seen the people (and dog) they dug out of the ash at Pompeii? I have. Sobering stuff. :plain:
Yep. Pyroclast will do that. Thankfully we have warning systems in many areas of volcanic activity.
 

Stripe

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Sounds pretty good to me. But I'm no geologist.
Clearly. :chuckle:

Think it through for a second. You have to bury an animal and squash it flat quickly after it dies. What's the best way to do that?

Different feathered dinosaur. There are LOTS of feathered dinosaurs from the Liaoning region.
:chuckle: I wonder why.

*Why* are they birds? Feathers?
I'm yet to be convinced that all these feathers are real. :)

As I said, I don't know the details, I'd have to find the original paper. I had the Anchiornis paper posted in our hall but I think someone ran off with it.
I'll take an educated guess. Were they a few days apart? A few years? A few decades?

Neither of us are experts in this area. I suggest you ask gsweet about the formation of the specifics of the rock layer. I'd be interested myself.
Oi, speak for yourself! I'm trained in this area.

It's fairly easy to tell whether a sediment was deposited entirely through water, but it'd be silly to proclaim the complete absence of water in every case.

Pyroclast will do that.

Do you know they were preserved in 3D form?
 
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Alate_One

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Think it through for a second. You have to bury an animal and squash it flat quickly after it dies. What's the best way to do that?
Ya think a volcanic eruption would do?

I'm yet to be convinced that all these feathers are real.
We find fossils of mammals from the same strata with fur, and lizards with skin impressions. Why are the feathers magically not real?

Oi, speak for yourself! I'm trained in this area.
I've yet to see a lot of evidence of that. You take almost every standard geological position and stand it on it's head. I'm not inclined to take your word for anything.

Do you know they were preserved in 3D form?
Yep. But the I presume the type of preservation depends on the speed, temperature and composition of the ash fall. Herculaneum, another city destroyed by volcano, did not have 3D casts.

To preserve fine details like we see in the fossils mentioned, I think we'd have to be looking at a gentler, much cooler ash fall, possibly over creatures that had already died, which then had more material stacked on top of it.

Obviously for 3-D casts to be made of humans and animals, you'd have to have an ash flow that was very fast and solidified around the bodies. In loose ash, the voids would collapse.
 

Stripe

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Ya think a volcanic eruption would do?
Nope. :)

We find fossils of mammals from the same strata with fur, and lizards with skin impressions. Why are the feathers magically not real?
Maybe they are. :idunno:

But then again, maybe they aren't.

I'm not inclined to take your word for anything.
That's fine. :)

I'm hoping you can think this through by yourself. How can a fossil be buried and squashed flat while maintaining its intricate detail?

Yep. But the I presume the type of preservation depends on the speed, temperature and composition of the ash fall. Herculaneum, another city destroyed by volcano, did not have 3D casts.
Uh, they weren't casts in either location. In both Pompeii and Herculaneum people were killed and buried by pyroclastic flows. And there is very likely to be differences in the nature of their fossilisation, but that's hardly a response to what we are actually talking about.

The pertinent question is why were these people buried in the same condition they died, but all your fossils are squashed flat? I'd appreciate it if you'd stop Googling new things to avoid responding to this very simple question. :up:

To preserve fine details like we see in the fossils mentioned, I think we'd have to be looking at a gentler, much cooler ash fall, possibly over creatures that had already died, which then had more material stacked on top of it.
OK.

So fossilisation occurs and then the strata is squashed flat. So we should see a range of flattenedness depending upon how deeply the fossil was subsequently buried, right? And we should see evidence of crushing in the rock layers, right? And we should see severe destruction to the structure of the fossil, right?

Do you know how much overburden would be required to flatten a layer of fossil bearing rock (as thick as the creature was when alive) to as thin as the fossils you've been showing us?
 

Alate_One

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Another "Stripe's just so stories". Nevermind the fact that wiki describes the formation where the fossil was found as volcanic.

Maybe they are. :idunno:
But then again, maybe they aren't.
Archeoraptor was made of two very real fossils. An early bird and microraptor. The only forgery involved was putting two fossils together that didn't match. And SCIENTISTS found the forgery very quickly, not the creationists.

I'm hoping you can think this through by yourself. How can a fossil be buried and squashed flat while maintaining its intricate detail?
I'm thinking you don't know any of the answers either. You're just playing games. Not all of the bones are actually squashed to the point of being crushed. It's not as if it was crushed as if with a vice, just look at it . . .

1.jpg


It's obviously disarticulated, which probably means it was already dead before it was buried.

Uh, they weren't casts in either location.
There were voids left at pompeii, they poured plaster into them. There was a negative image of the people left in the rock. They weren't actually fossilized.

Do you know how much overburden would be required to flatten a layer of fossil bearing rock (as thick as the creature was when alive) to as thin as the fossils you've been showing us?
Nope. And I'm quite sure, you don't either. If you think you do, provide a citation, not your speculative nonsense.
 

Stripe

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Nevermind the fact that wiki describes the formation where the fossil was found as volcanic.
It was volcanic. With intermittent sedimentary layers. But, as we've seen, you need more than a simple eruption to account for flattened and well preserved fossils.

Archeoraptor was made of two very real fossils. An early bird and microraptor. The only forgery involved was putting two fossils together that didn't match. And SCIENTISTS found the forgery very quickly, not the creationists.
Gee, calm down lady!

You show me a dino with feathers and I'm not going to accept it as genuine without some pretty convincing evidence.

I'm thinking you don't know any of the answers either. You're just playing games. Not all of the bones are actually squashed to the point of being crushed. It's not as if it was crushed as if with a vice, just look at it . . .
Uh .. yeah. I don't think it was crushed after being fossilised. That would be you. :)

There were voids left at pompeii, they poured plaster into them. There was a negative image of the people left in the rock. They weren't actually fossilized.
Yeah .. they made casts when they found the fossils.

Nope. And I'm quite sure, you don't either. If you think you do, provide a citation, not your speculative nonsense.
Well, let's see. I'd need the rock type of the layer the fossil is buried under, I'd need the maximum thickness of the fossil as found in situ and I'd need an estimate of the minimum thickness of the animal as it was when it was first buried. Then we'd have to do an estimate on the porosity of the original deposit. We'd have to settle the dispute about whether water filled the pore spaces or not. Then we could maybe look at a few groundwater studies to see what they did to calculate subsidence.

But that's not going to happen, now is it seeing you can't even show us a simple photo of the in situ fossil!

Luckily we don't have to rely on involved citations, experiments and calculations. We can discuss these ideas simply and reach rational conclusions pretty easily. That suits the forum we are working in, doesn't it?

1. If the original deposit was very porous and easily compressible (as is likely in an airfall ash deposit) then it's very possible that the presumed flattening did happen as you suggest. Unfortunately, with such porosity comes exposure to the elements and the complete breakdown of the organism inside. Once the organic matter is gone all you have to crush is rock.

2. If the original material was not very porous (like in your German limestone site) then crushing of it on even this small scale will require great pressure. This will show up in the rock and most certainly wipe the slate clean of any fossilised organisms.

So in order to maintain a non-water, long-ages description of you have to imagine a highly improbable set of long-enduring conditions and possibilities. Atheist descriptions are full of "low-oxygen environments" and warm, shallow seas" to the point where it seems the entire globe was covered with these. :chuckle: They ignore the very real effects of erosion and weathering that should dominate over and above fossil preservation.

A much simpler and physically possible explanation is easily described by adding one assumption. A global flood. If you're willing then I can describe pretty quickly how billions of fossils were buried the world over between layers of horizontal, uneroded rock and then squashed flat. :thumb:

Or you can keep insisting that I'm a liar, a cretin and that I provide links for every sentence. :plain:
 

Granite

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Stripe wants in situ info, provide a cite to the paper and he can read it himself, but that assumes he has gotten his comprehension up to par.

No, what he wants to do is bait people into wasting time responding to him. He's doing it right now on this thread. It's all he does here. It's his shtick: play dumb, ask repetitive questions, and sidetrack discussion. If I didn't know better I'd say he had Ganser syndrome.
 

Granite

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And as for Ebert's rejection of the offer: not sure what Enyart thinks it proves. Many scientists refuse outright to debate with creationists and I can't blame them.
 

Alate_One

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It was volcanic. With intermittent sedimentary layers. But, as we've seen, you need more than a simple eruption to account for flattened and well preserved fossils.
Uhh no we haven't seen that at all. You've ASSERTED that. Sans evidence, as usual. And no I don't believe your thought experiments just because "Stripe says so".

You show me a dino with feathers and I'm not going to accept it as genuine without some pretty convincing evidence.
You don't get it. Archeoraptor was half a real feathered dinosaur. There are at least 30 different specimens of microraptor (the feathered dinosaur half). Why would you think they are all forgeries? Are all archeopteryx fossils forgeries too? Why? Just because Feathered dinosaurs don't fit into your worldview.

But that's not going to happen, now is it seeing you can't even show us a simple photo of the in situ fossil!
Actually it's pretty hard to do that, well actually if you watched the video "The Four Winged Dinosaur"

Four Winged Dinosaur


there are lots of pictures of Liaoning as well as pictures of lots of feathered dinosaurs but you won't actually do anything for yourself. You want everyone else BUT you to do work on the forums. You won't even spend an hour watching an entertaining show. :p

Luckily we don't have to rely on involved citations, experiments and calculations. We can discuss these ideas simply and reach rational conclusions pretty easily. That suits the forum we are working in, doesn't it?
The classic Stripe thought experiment? No thanks. You're clueless, I might as well do a thought experiment with my chickens as partners. :p

Science works based on experiments, involved citations and calculations.

Or you can keep insisting that I'm a liar, a cretin and that I provide links for every sentence. :plain:
What I'm insisting is that you don't know what you're talking about. Because of this, using your ideas as a basis is a waste of time.
 

Stripe

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Uhh no we haven't seen that at all. You've ASSERTED that. Sans evidence, as usual. And no I don't believe your thought experiments just because "Stripe says so".
:sigh:

Have you been reading your own posts? At Pompeii, how were the fossils found?

You don't get it. Archeoraptor was half a real feathered dinosaur.
If you say so. :chuckle:

there are lots of pictures of Liaoning as well as pictures of lots of feathered dinosaurs but you won't actually do anything for yourself. You want everyone else BUT you to do work on the forums. You won't even spend an hour watching an entertaining show. :p
So you do have an image of your fossil? In this video?

The classic Stripe thought experiment? No thanks. You're clueless, I might as well do a thought experiment with my chickens as partners. :Science works based on experiments, involved citations and calculations. What I'm insisting is that you don't know what you're talking about. Because of this, using your ideas as a basis is a waste of time.

So you're not interested in an alternate explanation?
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Have you been reading your own posts? At Pompeii, how were the fossils found?
I'm not sure they are classed as fossils other than being casts of bodies. Do you assert the bones were replaced with minerals?

So you do have an image of your fossil? In this video?
The video covers microraptor, which is from the same liaoning formation as most other feathered dinosaurs that have been found, including Anchiornis. And there are lots of shots of strata, breaking up rocks etc. They explain, in general terms, how the strata was formed. They're stating there was a freshwater lake involved, which I think makes some sense given the description of the site. They even show the quarry where Archeopteryx was found.

But I'm sure you're worried about confronting the actual information involved. It might actually contradict what you're saying. So you're too scared to watch a video. :chuckle:

So you're not interested in an alternate explanation?
Not one that isn't supported by data, citations, experiment etc. You know . . . science. :p
 

Sherman

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This post is in regards to the show here I just listened to: Fred Ebert is a wimp for not wanting to debate Bob. He should not have backed out after saying he was going to do the debate.
 

Stripe

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I'm not sure they are classed as fossils
Sure, they are.

The video covers microraptor, which is from the same liaoning formation as most other feathered dinosaurs that have been found, including Anchiornis. And there are lots of shots of strata, breaking up rocks etc. They explain, in general terms, how the strata was formed. They're stating there was a freshwater lake involved, which I think makes some sense given the description of the site. They even show the quarry where Archeopteryx was found.
OK.

Not one that isn't supported by data, citations, experiment etc. You know . . . science. :p
Are you interested in hearing an alternative explanation?
 

Granite

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This post is in regards to the show here I just listened to: Fred Ebert is a wimp for not wanting to debate Bob. He should not have backed out after saying he was going to do the debate.

:yawn:

Well I suppose it's a pity that people have the right and ability to change their minds.

Debating a creationist is a pointless exercise.
 
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