Knight's POTD 12-28-2007

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Nathon Detroit

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Yorzhik, nails it on this one. :up:
Numbers 23:19-20Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? I have received a command to bless; he has blessed, and I cannot change it.

So this blessing is not optional, otherwise this question makes no sense here, to be asking such a question where the answer is "yes, God may indeed possibly change his mind." So then in such statements, God does not speak and then not act, nor promise and not fulfill.
So when God says He promises to change his mind under certain conditions, wouldn't you expect that God would not change His mind if those conditions are not met?

You aren't addressing the root of the problem you have with Jer. 18. Your eyes glaze over and you repeat your proof passage mantra. You still have to deal with God promising to break His promises under certain conditions.

No, these are not magic words that make a statement certain. The point is that saying "this is certain" (it doesn't have to be the words "truly truly") about a point known to be uncertain is lying.
I'm certain the Pats are going to be undefeated this season...

So how about now? Am I lying?

It isn't a lie to make an estimate or prediction, as long as you don't say it's sure, knowing it's not.
It's a sure thing. I don't think you've seen them play!

Yorzhik said:
... are humans not capable of determining to will their palms the opposite of whatever God says?
lee_merrill said:
What has happened to the omnicompetent God?
The omnicompetent God is smart enough to realize the situation is logically absurd. Therefore He couldn't do it any more than He could make a rock so big He couldn't lift it.

So what happened to a God that knows the future exhaustively? Are humans not capable of determining to will their palms the opposite of whatever God says?

lee_merrill continues:
And you ignored my point about Peter.
It was a non sequitur. But I'll answer it anyway. The situation with Peter is similar, but there are a number of factors that make it impossible to tell what Peter's will was at the time of denial. What we will to do can change from moment to moment. Removing those factors, we can test the existence of will. You'd rather not remove the extenuating factors because then your pride would be hurt. As a brother in Christ, please pray that God would help you overcome your pride.

I don't see a logical contradiction in bringing a person's hands to rest palms down on a table.
You are looking in the wrong place. What God says can affect how you will put your palms. Therefore, what God says cannot accurately predict how you will put your palms... which, if that same God knows the future exhaustively, is a logical contradiction.

Yorzhik said:
Would you be willing to admit that God (according to the SV) can do the logically contradictory?
lee_merrill said:
No, God cannot make true be false, or false be true.
Wow... no beating around the bush there! So now you have a choice; Either man does not have will, or God does not know the future exhaustively. If you have to get rid of a logical contradiction, it has to be one or the other.

So events in the future are not inherently unknowable.
Correct. If God removed man's will all events in the future would be known by God exhaustively (assuming the devil and demons' and angels' wills are also removed).

Yorzhik said:
... all events that depend on the will of man are uncertain to greater or lesser degrees.
lee_merrill said:
Then how can God know that only a remnant will be saved, and then all Israel?
Just because this is a prophecy that hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it is different than prophecies in the past.

God's estimate that only a remnant will be saved is the same as God's estimate that Israel would fall away that He predicted when Solomon dedicated the temple. It's the same as God predicted when He told Nineveh that they would be destroyed because of their unbelief. The same as God predicted when He told Israel He would completely drive out all the nations.

Your love does not depend on the will of man, on your will? If it does, then it is uncertain to some degree, as you have said--not to impugn your love for your wife, however.
No impugning taken. But, no, if my love depends on my will, as a man, then it is not uncertain. I have determined that I will love my wife, and so I will do it. Nothing that she does or anyone else does will change that.

lee_merrill continues:
And "all" must certainly mean some will repent, and this prediction then must be--according to OVT--to some degree uncertain, as indeed you say. But this prediction is certain, and involves people not even born yet, and their decisions.
Only as certain as past predictions. They are all stated the same way. Just because a prophecy's time has not come, does not mean it will be any different in certainty than prophecies in the past.

Romans 9:27-28 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."
This is a prophecy.
:first:
 
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