Knight's pick 09-23-2003

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Nathon Detroit

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:first:
Originally posted by Hilston
Jerry,

You continue to ask excellent questions. My replies are inline below:

Jerry writes:
It appears to me that the "kingdom saints" were receiving all of Paul's epistles,and those epistles were written directly to them:

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction"(2Pet.3:15,16).
Peter is writing to the diaspora, the dispersed Jews who are "strangers" in Gentile regions (1Pe 1:1 2Pe 2:11,12 3:1). According to Peter, Paul addressed some letters to the diaspora about the fact that kingdom was put on hold (in answer to Peter's question in Acts 1:6). These are in addition to the canonical epistles he wrote to the Body of Christ (also in all his epistles). Peter further describes those writings as difficult to understand, but not because of a defect in his writing or a propensity to be convoluted or whatever, but rather because he was bringing in a new gospel for a new body of God's elect. The difficulties lie in reconciling Pauline scripture with Petrine et al, especially if one refuses to acknowledge the distinctions between their messages.

To further make the point, observe that Peter's audience cannot be members of the Body of Christ. This is indicated by the fact that Peter's audience has the earthly Hope that describes kingdom saints exclusively (2Pe 2:9). Such a description is in full accordance with the promises to Israel to be nation of priests (Ex 9:6 Isa 61:6 1Pe 2:5,9 Re 1:6 5:10 20:6 De 7:6 26:19). Note further that Paul never describes members of the Body of Christ in these earthly, national or priestly terms. Indeed, the Body of Christ, being seated in the heavenlies, far above these earthly things, far above the angelic intermediation that was package with Israel's earthly ministry and worship of God, has no earthly Hope whatsoever and therefore no land, no nation, and no priesthood.

Jerry writes:
And it also appears that the Jewish believers shared certain things with the believers who are in the Body of Christ,such as the fact that they are "free" from the Law.

As late as Acts 21 the church at Jerusalem remained under the Law:

"And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law"(Acts21:20).

But by the time Peter wrote his first epistle the Jews were no longer under the Law,but instead were "free" from that bondage:

"As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God"(1Pet.2:16).
This makes an excellent point about the nature of law as a standard of righteousness within households (dispensations). One can be zealous of one's respective law and be free from it as well. This is the difference between the spirit and the letter of the law. The elect Jews of the Kingdom household would zealously, albeit freely, keep the Law of Moses. Jesus did. David did this. Throughout the Kingdom writings we see examples of this. But note also that the same is true for the Body of Christ. While we the Law of Moses has been taken completely out of the way with respect to the Body of Christ (Col 2:14), we are still legislated by Pauline Law. When we obey Paul's epistles from the heart, we are being zealous for Pauline law, yet free from the bondage of it. However, when one makes Pauline law a legalistic work of merit before God, one puts oneself in bondage to it. I've done this myself, and it's sin.

Jerry writes:
That is almost the identical language Paul used in reference to those Jews who are in the Body of CHrist:

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another"(Gal.5:13).

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage"(Gal.5:1).

So it appears as if all the Jews who were living at the time Paul wrote his later epistles were "free" from the Law and at "liberty" from the Law.
Correct.

Great questions, Jerry. These are some of the very questions I was asking about 11 years ago. It's refreshing to go through them again and to see the power of the Mid-Acts framework in understanding otherwise insurmountable incongruencies.

Jim
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Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
:second:
Originally posted by Turbo
Originally posted by Turbo
So, do you agree that homosexuality is a sin?

Originally posted by Whispers
That could well be a discussion for another thread. I am happy to discuss this with you, but cannot seem to get to the point of my OP.
I thought this was an important part of discussing your opening post, since you specifically mentioned preaching about homosexuality.
Should christians pass judgement on one another and on sinners. If so, what scripture supports this?
Yes.

Open rebuke is better Than love carefully concealed. Proverbs 27:5

Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 1 Corinthians 6:2-5

But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Matthew 7:1-5

I am fully committed to the idea that God will judge, and mercy should be our main practice...
As Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 6:2-5, Christians “will judge the world,” and he rebuked them for not being able to “to judge [even] the smallest matters.” (Note: Paul was judging them for not judging.)

not the abuse of our fellow man trapped in sin....
God says that “Open rebuke” is truly loving(Proverbs 27:5), but you call it abuse. :down:

[from Whispers’ opening post]
Would anyone care to discuss with me whether preaching violence and hatred is acceptable in general and especially by an ordained Disciple of Christ?
What exactly are you talking about? Violence, as in advocating that governments punish criminals the way God has instructed? Hatred, as in “Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.” (Romans 12:9)?
[ context ]
 
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