John 20:28 and the Trinity

[Rosenritter]

Greetings again Rosenritter, As there is only One God the Father, and he dwells in heaven, and no mortal man can see God, as he dwells in light unapproachable by man, whom man has not seen or can see, then the answer to your question is obvious and I cannot understand why you should ask.

Kind regards
Trevor

So clarifying for the third and final time then, if God were to appear before you and say "I am your God and Creator" because of your reasoning above, you would conclude that there must be a DIFFERENT person in front of you as the mouthpiece... because it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to speak without a messenger.

Matthew 19:26 KJV
(26) But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

... but some things really are impossible for God? Something so simple?

I'd prefer to hear you say it rather than me having to piece this together for you. I don't think it is impossible for God to appear before us without a proxy, but that's essentially what you've said and affirmed three times now.

 

[Dartman]

Nowhere is it indicated that God and angels share the same nature, or that humans are in the image of angels.

I agree.
Nor is there ANY indication God and angels don't look the same, or that humans do NOT look like angels. In fact there is good evidence that angels look like men, and that God made man to look like Him.

“Image” has no reference to a physical likeness, as you assert.

OT:6754
Tselem … illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, especially an idol:
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Numbers 33:52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
1 Samuel 6:5 Wherefore ye shall make images of your emerods, and images of your mice that mar the land; and ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods, and from off your land.
1 Samuel 6:11 And they laid the ark of the Lord upon the cart, and the coffer with the mice of gold and the images of their emerods.
2 Kings 11:18 And all the people of the land went into the house of Baal, and brake it down; his altars and his images brake they in pieces throughly, and slew Mattan the priest of Baal before the altars. And the priest appointed officers over the house of the Lord.
2 Chronicles 23:17 Then all the people went to the house of Baal, and brake it down, and brake his altars and his images in pieces, and slew Mattan the priest of Baal before the altars.
Psalms 39:6 Surely every man walketh in a vain shew: surely they are disquieted in vain: he heapeth up riches, and knoweth not who shall gather them.
Psalms 73:20 As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.
Ezekiel 7:20 As for the beauty of his ornament, he set it in majesty: but they made the images of their abominations and of their detestable things therein: therefore have I set it far from them.
Ezekiel 16:17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,
Ezekiel 23:14 And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion,
Amos 5:26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

Please explain which of these passages is NOT talking about physical likeness.

 

[Dartman]

If you stopped to define what "in the image of God" implies then it might help resolve the question.

No problem. The Hebrew word "Tselem" ALWAYS means a visual likeness. Like a statue, or an idol.

I just posted a complete list of the verses in the OT that have "Tselem" in them. Please feel free to peruse that list. If you THINK there is a verse that does NOT mean "visual likeness" ... by all means let me know which passage, and why you think it does NOT mean "visual likeness".

 

[john w]

I agree...........DELETE

Slower:you are a bible corrector/agnostic/mystic, not a bible believer; thus, you are dismissed.

You allegedly know this "the Greek," but not "the English."


Now-which word do you not understand?

 

[Dartman]

Slower:you are a bible corrector/agnostic/mystic, not a bible believer; thus, you are dismissed.

You allegedly know this "the Greek," but not "the English."


Now-which word do you not understand?

So, the bottom line is, you didn't check the passages listed?

 

[john w]

So, the bottom line is, you didn't check the passages listed?

Even slower:you are a bible corrector/agnostic/mystic, not a bible believer; thus, you are dismissed.

You allegedly know this "the Greek," but not "the English."


Now-which word do you not understand?

 

[Rosenritter]

No problem. The Hebrew word "Tselem" ALWAYS means a visual likeness. Like a statue, or an idol.

I just posted a complete list of the verses in the OT that have "Tselem" in them. Please feel free to peruse that list. If you THINK there is a verse that does NOT mean "visual likeness" ... by all means let me know which passage, and why you think it does NOT mean "visual likeness".

A couple considerations that you may not have included:

First, the comparison "after our likeness" used in Genesis 1:26 and thus assumed to be fulfilled in Genesis 1:27 is not limited to visual likeness, as demonstrated in Isaiah 13:4.

Genesis 1:26-27 KJV
(26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
(27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Isaiah 13:4 KJV
(4) The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

H1823
דּמוּת
demûth
dem-ooth'
From H1819; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like: - fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.

Second, this cannot simply be about physical looks, when considering other applications of the phrase later. The sentence of murder is justified because man is in the image of God (thus the slaying a man is a terrible crime) then this cannot simply be about physical looks.

Genesis 9:6 KJV
(6) Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

A blind person would be able to tell the difference between a man (in the image of God) and a beast even without eyesight. Something as profound as "in the image of God" that separates the death of a beast from the murder of a man must necessarily involve something else.

Psalms 39:5-6 KJV
(5) Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.
(6) Surely every man walketh in a vain shew: surely they are disquieted in vain: he heapeth up riches, and knoweth not who shall gather them.

The instance above in Psalms is demonstration that the word can be used in a wider metaphorical aspect, not simply about physical looks.

 

[Rosenritter]

So, the bottom line is, you didn't check the passages listed?

There wasn't a single Greek word in that list. Apparently he doesn't recognize the difference between Hebrew and Greek.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rosenritter,

So clarifying for the third and final time then, if God were to appear before you and say "I am your God and Creator" because of your reasoning above, you would conclude that there must be a DIFFERENT person in front of you as the mouthpiece... because it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to speak without a messenger.
Matthew 19:26 KJV But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
... but some things really are impossible for God? Something so simple?

I'd prefer to hear you say it rather than me having to piece this together for you. I don't think it is impossible for God to appear before us without a proxy, but that's essentially what you've said and affirmed three times now.

As a direct answer, God has not directly revealed Himself to mortal man in the past, He is not doing this now, and He will not do this in the future.

If you want to play or speculate with the word “impossible”, consider the following:
Hebrews 6:13–18 (KJV): 13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. 17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Rosenritter]

Greetings again Rosenritter, As a direct answer, God has not directly revealed Himself to mortal man in the past, He is not doing this now, and He will not do this in the future.

1. "God has not directly revealed Himself to mortal man in the past" is in dispute.

2. God is revealing himself to mortal man in the future" is specifically what is prophesied in Revelation.

Revelation 20:12 KJV
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 21:3 KJV
(3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

... and also prophesied by Job.

Job 19:25-27 KJV
(25) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
(26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

"Mine eyes shall behold" in the context of "his standing upon the earth" and his actual eyes beholding even if the worrms destroy his body indicates that this is an actual literal beholding, "with his eyes" rather than "with his heart" or "with his thoughts." I don't think it's possible to phrase this in a way that is in any more literal sense.

I'm afraid that as you have stated, your mind is so made up already that you would dismiss any and all levels of evidence, even the word of God himself (you would look at God as if he were a microphone for someone more distant...)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rosenritter,

I'm afraid that as you have stated, your mind is so made up already that you would dismiss any and all levels of evidence, even the word of God himself (you would look at God as if he were a microphone for someone more distant...)

The initial basis of my belief are the following which have been discussed previously:
John 1:18 (KJV): No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 Timothy 6:14–16 (KJV): 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
I have stated “mortal man” and I do not know when those who are resurrected and made immortal will see God the Father. There would be no limitation of Job seeing God after the resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Rosenritter]

Greetings again Rosenritter,
The initial basis of my belief are the following which have been discussed previously:
John 1:18 (KJV): No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 Timothy 6:14–16 (KJV): 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
I have stated “mortal man” and I do not know when those who are resurrected and made immortal will see God the Father. There would be no limitation of Job seeing God after the resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

1) Do you acknowledge that there is more than one meaning of the word "see?"

and bonus, Jesus exempts himself because he is declaring God. How can he exempt himself? The same way he exempts himself from "no man has ascended to heaven" and it is because of this witness of heaven that he possesses that he testifies of heavenly things.

So if you accept Jesus as God, then we have seen Jesus,
But even if you do not accept Jesus as God and say he is "just a man" then this is a man that has ascended to heaven and seen God.

2) The grammar of that passage says that our Lord Jesus Christ dwells in that unapproachable light. It identifies him as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the same title that he bears in Revelation.

We may not be able to approach unto that light, but he comes to us, as we are told in 1 Thessalonians "and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (which I know you will dispute) and also Rev 21:3 "and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (which I do not understand how you can dispute.)

So in the first case there is more than one application of the word "see" and in the second case he may dwell in that light currently, but he comes to us, he brings the Holy City to us, and he is the light and the glory of that city that we may not be able to approach by ourselves, but of which we may enter when we have been changed.

1 Corinthians 15:50-51 KJV
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Timothy 6:14 "No man" may approach unto because "every man" is flesh and blood. Those that inherit the kingdom will be changed. How else may they enter that city where God and the Lamb are the temple and the glory and the light thereof?

-----------

If we were to accept your interpretation, what would you do with Job and Revelation which would still stand in conflict to that reading? Why would those things have been said?

And as a side effect, the "God" that your view is producing is so distant and involved that he might as well not be there. Like an absent parent that hires babysitters and nannies and butlers to raise the children, what is the point of adopting children if it's merely on paper without the closeness?

 

[Dartman]

A couple considerations that you may not have included:

First, the comparison "after our likeness" used in Genesis 1:26 and thus assumed to be fulfilled in Genesis 1:27 is not limited to visual likeness, as demonstrated in Isaiah 13:4.

Genesis 1:26-27 KJV
(26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
(27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Isaiah 13:4 KJV
(4) The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

H1823
דּמוּת
demûth
dem-ooth'
From H1819; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like: - fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.

I am aware demuth is a tiny bit more flexible than tselem, and in the 25 times it is used, there are a few, like the verse you mention, and Psa 58:4, where it is used to indicate a strong resemblance in other aspects than visual. Tselem is not that flexible.

Second, this cannot simply be about physical looks, when considering other applications of the phrase later. The sentence of murder is justified because man is in the image of God (thus the slaying a man is a terrible crime) then this cannot simply be about physical looks.

Why not? This sounds like merely your opinion. Please provide some evidence in the context.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rosenritter,

1) Do you acknowledge that there is more than one meaning of the word "see?"

Yes, but the two references that I quoted definitely speak of visual sight or includes this.

and bonus, Jesus exempts himself because he is declaring God. How can he exempt himself? The same way he exempts himself from "no man has ascended to heaven" and it is because of this witness of heaven that he possesses that he testifies of heavenly things.

Jesus is the exception.

So if you accept Jesus as God, then we have seen Jesus,
But even if you do not accept Jesus as God and say he is "just a man" then this is a man that has ascended to heaven and seen God.

Jesus is not God, but he is the Son of God and has never sinned as all other men.

The grammar of that passage says that our Lord Jesus Christ dwells in that unapproachable light. It identifies him as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the same title that he bears in Revelation.

No, it is God the Father that dwells in unapproachable light and cannot be seen by man.

We may not be able to approach unto that light, but he comes to us, as we are told in 1 Thessalonians "and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (which I know you will dispute) and also Rev 21:3 "and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (which I do not understand how you can dispute.)

I understand Revelation 21 to be speaking of after the 1000 years, when there will not be any mortal men on the earth.

So in the first case there is more than one application of the word "see" and in the second case he may dwell in that light currently, but he comes to us, he brings the Holy City to us, and he is the light and the glory of that city that we may not be able to approach by ourselves, but of which we may enter when we have been changed.
1 Corinthians 15:50-51 KJV (50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Timothy 6:14 "No man" may approach unto because "every man" is flesh and blood. Those that inherit the kingdom will be changed. How else may they enter that city where God and the Lamb are the temple and the glory and the light thereof?

See above.

If we were to accept your interpretation, what would you do with Job and Revelation which would still stand in conflict to that reading? Why would those things have been said?

See above.

And as a side effect, the "God" that your view is producing is so distant and involved that he might as well not be there. Like an absent parent that hires babysitters and nannies and butlers to raise the children, what is the point of adopting children if it's merely on paper without the closeness?

God is very close to each of us and knows our thoughts and answers our prayers.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Rosenritter]

I am aware demuth is a tiny bit more flexible than tselem, and in the 25 times it is used, there are a few, like the verse you mention, and Psa 58:4, where it is used to indicate a strong resemblance in other aspects than visual. Tselem is not that flexible.

Why not? This sounds like merely your opinion. Please provide some evidence in the context.

Really?

Rational proof: A monkey can look like a human, even more human than someone who is born with terrible facial deformity. If this were just about looks, than those born with terrible facial deformities have no hope and no savior, or at least less than the human-looking monkey. We recognize that even a physically deformed human is a human and his life is as treasured as any other, more than any animal no matter what similarity it might have to a human in appearance. The same logic used for physical deformity also applies for damage from fire, acid, disease, or old age, and likewise for physical shape, those with deformities or injuries that are missing limbs are not less human for it.

Scripture proof:

Jeremiah 11:20 KJV
(20) But, O LORD of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.


Do you really need more scripture to show that God judges by the heart and not by appearances? That's what this boils down to. Man is deemed special (above the animal) because he is created in the image of God. Man is judged not by appearance but by his heart.

 

[NWL]

So why does the Passover need to be divine (God) for it to be meaningful? As we say above, someone cannot substitute themselves (like Moses) or their own righteousness (like Noah, Daniel, or Job) for another. A man cannot redeem his brother unto eternal life (Psalm 49). The blood of animals never took away sins.

All of this adds together that the Christ's words ARE God's words (to forgive sin) and that His sacrifice is God's sacrifice, forgiving the sin and absorbing the damage of the transgression to himself. Man cannot redeem man, this was already established in scripture.

Are you saying that NO man can redeem man but only YHWH sacrificing himself can redeem man?

 

[Dartman]

Really?

Rational proof: A monkey can look like a human, even more human than someone who is born with terrible facial deformity. If this were just about looks, than those born with terrible facial deformities have no hope and no savior, or at least less than the human-looking monkey. We recognize that even a physically deformed human is a human and his life is as treasured as any other, more than any animal no matter what similarity it might have to a human in appearance. The same logic used for physical deformity also applies for damage from fire, acid, disease, or old age, and likewise for physical shape, those with deformities or injuries that are missing limbs are not less human for it.

Scripture proof:

Jeremiah 11:20 KJV
(20) But, O LORD of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.


Do you really need more scripture to show that God judges by the heart and not by appearances? That's what this boils down to. Man is deemed special (above the animal) because he is created in the image of God. Man is judged not by appearance but by his heart.

You are absolutely correct. God judges EACH of us, by how successful we are at TRANSFORMING our spirit/mind/heart FROM our natural/created spirit/mind/heart....and our works/behavior from the "natural man".
So, in this sense, man was NOT created in God's likeness ..... but MUST "put on a NEW man .... in God's likeness".

The problems with your theory are NOT surmountable.
1) God made man in His image Tselem .. which ALWAYS means a visual representation.
2) God is described throughout Scripture, with the same features we have.
3) Jehovah/YHVH God describes HIMSELF with the same features we have, and agreed to show SOME of them to Moses.
4) Part of the promises to the righteous are getting to "see God", "see His face" (which Jesus said the angels always do)
5) Scripture REPEATEDLY explains the VAST difference between human mentality, and His. And, that is even AFTER humans acquired "the knowledge of good and evil". So, there is NO WAY humans are RATIONALLY in God's image.

 

[john w]

1 John 4 KJV
12 No man hath seen God at any time.


This would be God the Father. Why? Per....

Exodus 24 KJV

9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 and they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.




Thus, they saw whom? The God of Israel. Again-whom did they see? Not God the Father:



John 6 KJV

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Which clarifies:

John 1 KJV
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So, they, i.e., Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, saw the God of Israel. But the Lord Jesus Christ in John 6 testifies that no man has seen the Father, except the Son. Whom did Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, see, as identified as "the God of Israel?"


Guess who? Hint...


Who spoke to Moses through "the burning bush?:"
Exodus 3 KJV

4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.......13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Genesis 48 KJV
3 And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,

Huh? No man has seen God the Father, except the Lord Jesus Christ. And yet Jacob saw "God Almighty"-he appeared unto him.

Whom appeared unto him? It was not God the Father.

Exodus 6 KJV
2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord: 3 and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

So, God appeared unto Abraham,unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of "God Almighty." And this same God Almighty, told Moses of a name, never before revealed, until him-JEHOVAH.

What's His name, this God Almighty that appeared unto Abraham, and Issac, and Jacob?It was not God the Father.


Each one of you needs to decide that. I have, did, 20+ years ago. But I cannot answer for you.

And I write this to those that have ears to hear, bible believers, not bible correctors/agnostics/mystics.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again john w,

Who spoke to Moses through "the burning bush?:"
Exodus 3 KJV 4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.......13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

I notice that you carefully avoided verse 2 and started the quotation at verse 4. If you had started at verse 2 you would have the answer to your question:
Exodus 3:2 (KJV): And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Acts 7:30 (KJV): And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
An angel is a messenger, and a messenger speaks a message, the Word that God has given him.

Each one of you needs to decide that. I have, did, 20+ years ago. But I cannot answer for you.
And I write this to those that have ears to hear, bible believers, not bible correctors/agnostics/mystics.

I decided to save you the bother of repeating your usual statement, but I will reply to you when you ignore what the Scriptures clearly state.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[john w]

I will reply to you when you ignore what the Scriptures clearly state.

Kind regards
Trevor

Please teach us another "original" stumper, that we've never heard before. Please?


Slower:And I write this to those that have ears to hear, bible believers, not bible correctors/agnostics/mystics.