Show me where Jesus said "I am God"? "I am" is not "I am God."
You make simple word so complicated.
John 20:28 and the Trinity
- Thread starter Jacob
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Show me where Jesus said "I am God"? "I am" is not "I am God."
You make simple word so complicated.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Rosenritter
New member
1. Jesus was very specific that He exclusively judges the living and the dead,
2. shortly thereafter he refers to the Psalm where God (Elohim) judges the dead,
3. and that we are also told in Ezekiel that the "God" that will judges is the LORD God, Jehovah (see below)
Ezekiel 33:11, 20 KJV
(11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
(20) Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
Doesn't that seem at least a little bit significant? There's no question that the LORD judges, Jesus says he specifically judges (the Son of God) and not the Father, and then he cites the Psalm where God (who inherits all nations) judges the minor judges who die like men. That seems like a very strong link.
At the very least, recognize that Jesus citing "I have said, ye are gods" is hardly a refutation that he is indeed the LORD who judges every one after their ways. It's one of many strong links showing that Jesus is God, and can hardly be construed as evidence against.
Greetings again Rosenritter,
I see no evidence that you have fully understood the reference to the Judges being called “Elohim”. My experience with this, is that I attended a series on Daniel at a local SDA Church. Having worked through a few chapters, on a night that some were away, they decided to fill in with a night on the Trinity. Most agreed with the leaflet that John 10:30 taught the Trinity, but I simply stated that I believed that Jesus is the Son of God. It took some years before I gradually understood John 10:30-36, and that this teaches that Jesus is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
God the Father has appointed His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to fulfil most of the roles that can be attributed to God alone, such as Judge, Saviour, Shepherd and many others. This simply, yet remarkably demonstrates Jesus’ unique position as the Son of God.
I see no evidence that you have fully understood the reference to the Judges being called “Elohim”. My experience with this, is that I attended a series on Daniel at a local SDA Church. Having worked through a few chapters, on a night that some were away, they decided to fill in with a night on the Trinity. Most agreed with the leaflet that John 10:30 taught the Trinity, but I simply stated that I believed that Jesus is the Son of God. It took some years before I gradually understood John 10:30-36, and that this teaches that Jesus is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
Rosenritter
New member
This branch has nothing to do anymore with whether mortal judges are "elohim" in that passage. Other Old Testament passages establish that the LORD judges everyone (including the judges) which provides evidence that the Psalm is properly translated in English as "God judges among the gods." Jesus established that he judges the judges and combined with other scripture (Ezekiel 33, as one example) that is sufficient to show what Jesus meant, that "the judge of the quick and the dead" is only and can only be God himself.
Besides this (think please) you cannot logically / morally / ethically "farm out' the Judgment of God to a contractor or third party.
Your ability to dismiss Jesus' word is just amazing.
Jesus says His Father gave Him authority to judge and forgive.
He also says He cannot do anything on His own.
You need to read the Scripture to harmonize with Jesus' word, not the other way around to suit your own man-made doctrine.
Your Lord is your own doctrine, not Jesus.
Greetings again Rosenritter,
I would like to firstly explain my understanding of why the judges were called God or gods, and then briefly state the significance of this in John 10:30-36. It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor.
The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
Contrary to your suggestion that God did not farm out judgement, the above clearly states that God appointed these judges. So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God. The key to this is that they represented God. Jesus states in John 10:34-35 that they were called "gods" because the Word of God came unto them. Jesus was claiming a similar though superior role as The Son of God, by calling and claiming God as His Father. He was united with His Father in character and works. He represented God in all that he did.
Kind regards
Trevor
I appreciate your response, but I suggest that what you have stated does not explain Jesus’ reference to Psalm 82:6.
I would like to firstly explain my understanding of why the judges were called God or gods, and then briefly state the significance of this in John 10:30-36. It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor.
The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
Contrary to your suggestion that God did not farm out judgement, the above clearly states that God appointed these judges. So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God. The key to this is that they represented God. Jesus states in John 10:34-35 that they were called "gods" because the Word of God came unto them. Jesus was claiming a similar though superior role as The Son of God, by calling and claiming God as His Father. He was united with His Father in character and works. He represented God in all that he did.
Kind regards
Trevor
Exactly. This kind of simple fact is dismissed by trin believers.
Rosenritter
New member
It does explain Jesus's reference to Psalm 82. You may prefer a different explanation (that I disagree with) but you haven't shown that the explanation I gave is contradictory to my existing set of known facts.
Why would you say the translators had "difficulty?"
There is a marked difference between God appointing men to make judgments among men and the judgment of God as to whether men walk with God, whether they shall have eternal life. God does not "farm out" forgiving sin against God and eternal life.
John 20-28
said
Thomas knew that God was in Christ. And Thomas was addressing both of them. And so that He wouldn't be rude by leaving one or the other un addressed. He addressed both of them. My Lord Jesus, and also my God the Father.
John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
(NKJ)
2 Cor 5:19
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)
Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'LORD, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'LORD, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
(NKJ)
Luke 6:46
46 "But why do you call Me 'LORD, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?
(NKJ)
Luke 13:25-27
25 "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'LORD, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,'
26 "then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'
27 "But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
(NKJ)
said
Thomas knew that God was in Christ. And Thomas was addressing both of them. And so that He wouldn't be rude by leaving one or the other un addressed. He addressed both of them. My Lord Jesus, and also my God the Father.
John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
(NKJ)
2 Cor 5:19
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)
Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'LORD, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'LORD, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
(NKJ)
Luke 6:46
46 "But why do you call Me 'LORD, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?
(NKJ)
Luke 13:25-27
25 "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'LORD, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,'
26 "then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'
27 "But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
(NKJ)
6days
New member
So, Jesus words were not so clear and simple?? Why can't you accept what he said without adding "in unity" to the words of Jesus? Does your added words have anything to do with "your own doctrine"?
Greetings again Rosenritter,
Another layer in Jesus quoting Psalm 82 is that he is suggesting that those who were trying to arrest him, to trap him and now falsely accuse him, are actually also fulfilling Psalm 82 as the corrupt Judges who would be replaced by the true Judge, the true Son of God, and God would judge them and reject them. This occurred in part in AD70.
Kind regards
Trevor
To be honest, I had difficulty with understanding what you were stating in your earlier post and I am still having difficulty. My understanding of Psalm 82 is that the Psalmist is speaking against corrupt Judges, who were not fulfilling their appointed role of being impartial in their judgement. So "God judges among the gods" represents that God judges amongst the Judges. God the Father is ultimately the Judge, but Moses appointed 70 Judges to help administer the day to day judgements, when he was overburdened with all the people that sought his decisions.
Because the Hebrew here has “Elohim”, and this word is usually translated “God” in most contexts. The KJV translators saw this difficulty and translated this as “judges”, while many Modern Translations override this and translate this as “God”. A proper understanding here is that it is speaking of the Judges representing God, but this is difficult to convey without having an extensive footnote or margin explanation.
What you say about the larger issues of sin against God and eternal life is true, but Jesus draws upon Psalm 82 and the reference to the Unjust Judges, and this then takes us back to the Judges appointed by Moses. Instead of stopping short at their accusation of blasphemy, we should carefully consider Jesus’ answer to their accusation.
Another layer in Jesus quoting Psalm 82 is that he is suggesting that those who were trying to arrest him, to trap him and now falsely accuse him, are actually also fulfilling Psalm 82 as the corrupt Judges who would be replaced by the true Judge, the true Son of God, and God would judge them and reject them. This occurred in part in AD70.
Kind regards
Trevor
I follow the context. Trins don't.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Why then did they want to stone Him?
Greetings Bright Raven,
John 10:29–39 (KJV): 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
Jesus said that he is the Son of God and that God is his Father. This is part of the buildup of antagonism, starting from the baptism of John, and the various incidents with Jesus, for example their attempt to arrest him John 7, their attempt to trap him John 8 and the healing of the blind man John 9. Even here with this attempt to stone him, I suggest that a few of the Pharisees attempted to stir up the crowd, but would not be game themselves to cast the first stone, lest most of the crowd would turn on them.
Kind regards
Trevor
Because they did not correctly understand what Jesus said, and even then they did not accept his answer.
John 10:29–39 (KJV): 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
Jesus said that he is the Son of God and that God is his Father. This is part of the buildup of antagonism, starting from the baptism of John, and the various incidents with Jesus, for example their attempt to arrest him John 7, their attempt to trap him John 8 and the healing of the blind man John 9. Even here with this attempt to stone him, I suggest that a few of the Pharisees attempted to stir up the crowd, but would not be game themselves to cast the first stone, lest most of the crowd would turn on them.
Kind regards
Trevor
Because He said He is Son of God.
Besides, they hated Jesus for Him exposing their evil faith.
6days
New member
Yes... And they knew He was making Himself an equal of God the Father, which Jesus did not deny. He always accepted worship, and never rebuked those who equated Him with God.
The Pharisees did not have faith, other than in themselves. They seemed to think that people needed to belong to their religion...and, they thought what was important was how good they followed laws.
Again you deny Jesus' clear statement of "My Father is greater than I".
that's right, they did not have faith in God.
That's why they hated Jesus and killed him.