Preterists... helping the retarded community feel a little bit smarter for hundreds of years!
ECT Jews know scripture better than the deceitful Supersessionalists
- Thread starter Evil.Eye.<(I)>
- Start date
Preterists... helping the retarded community feel a little bit smarter for hundreds of years!
EE,
You are caught up in a fault.
The 3000 on the day of Pentecost saw Christ in that He was revealed to them through the messengers who came in His Name.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
That is when the following verses were being fulfilled---
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
LA
nikolai_42
Well-known member
What is the exact definition of supersessionalism (probably more accurately "supersessionism")? I ask, because I've heard it defined as anything from God fulfilling the natural promises to earthly Israel all the way to Jews are (effectively) saved by the Law since they are a separate people operating under the auspices of the old covenant.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Thick irony...
The "AL" is a gimmick for the OP name and a way of skewing the actual theological term that describes a complete theological falsehood.
To be direct... supersession(al)ism is the idea that the Body of Christ is now "Israel" and completely voids Israel of Jacob. This falls apart with one simple challenge. Find one bible verse that removes Israel of Jacobs blood from election and God's coming fulfilling of His promises to Israel.
The Body of Christ is not Israel, though "supersession(al)ism teaches that lie.
My explaination is biased, but it is biblically biased, so I'm guilt free here.
- EE
:thumb:
Rotfl,
You clearly have no idea what this is all about! Jews finding Jesus today have nothing to do with what God has planned for the hard hearted and partially blind Jews.
You are a "special" someone, for sure!
Interplanner
Well-known member
There is no Jesus to be found unless he and his resurrection are the fulfillment of everything promised to the fathers, Acts 13:32, a sermon to synagogue Jews, mostly.
He's not doing anything other than what is in Christ with the race of Israel.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Made up. Singular promise, as you have been shown repeatedly.
At this point in time, an argument against Hebrews 10: 9 and II Corinthians 3: 7 and 3: 11, saying that the Old Covenant is somehow still in effect, is an argument that the religion of Judaism is now the dominant theology.
Judaism claims that there is a binding covenant between all Jews and God, where Jewish identity is defined as having the chosen people physical genetics from Abraham. In other words, that which is physical or literal is what defines a Jew in Judaism.
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2: 28-29
"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." Deuteronomy 10: 16
"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." Deuteronomy 30: 6
"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings." Jeremiah 4: 4.
The Noahide Laws are part of the binding covenant between Jews and God in Judaism. The Gospel of Christ violates the Noahide law against idolatry for those in Judaism. This means that believing and teaching that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are God and that Jesus is the savior violate the Talmudic Judaism law against idolatry. Maimonides is said to have taught this, among other Jewish rabbis.
Such a teaching against Jesus Christ would be relevant to I John 4: 3, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
Judaism claims that there is a binding covenant between all Jews and God, where Jewish identity is defined as having the chosen people physical genetics from Abraham. In other words, that which is physical or literal is what defines a Jew in Judaism.
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2: 28-29
"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." Deuteronomy 10: 16
"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." Deuteronomy 30: 6
"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings." Jeremiah 4: 4.
The Noahide Laws are part of the binding covenant between Jews and God in Judaism. The Gospel of Christ violates the Noahide law against idolatry for those in Judaism. This means that believing and teaching that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are God and that Jesus is the savior violate the Talmudic Judaism law against idolatry. Maimonides is said to have taught this, among other Jewish rabbis.
Such a teaching against Jesus Christ would be relevant to I John 4: 3, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
Romans 11:28 KJVJesus straight up told them they know nothing, and outright showed the Apostles how to interpret with the Spirit.
You see, the Jews crucified Jesus.
lain:
Why do we even need this discussion- the Jews are heretics.
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Yeppers.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
The problem I see is that the wrong thing is made a moving target. The term "Israel" has a national, racial and religious connotation in the nation that God established through His covenant with Abraham. Naturally speaking, the national tribes are broken down into the children of Isaac. So in a sense, the national component traces to him (even though it ultimately goes back to Abraham). But even then, what is treated (typically) as a single national entity ("Israel") is actually not - strictly speaking - correct either. God told Rebekah that she had "two nations" in her womb (Gen 25:23). The two nations are prophesied to be united (Ezekiel 37:15-28) - but if one reads that as a final days (i.e. current day) prophecy about the restoration of the Jews to the land of Israel in the Middle East, one also has to recognize that the prophecy has David ruling over the reunited kingdom. So while there is a sense in which there is a national fulfillment (it would seem), the promise is ultimately spiritual. David ruling Israel as a shepherd (Ezekiel 37:24) seems to point to Christ. So I see the natural and the spiritual in view here (both possibly referenced by sand of the sea and the stars of the sky in God's promise to Abraham). And the spiritual component - which is the eternal and more critical of the two - does not find the distinction that dispensationalism wants to make between Israel and the church. This is where I think the goalposts are moved - in conflating what may be (some of the promises and prophecies I think are more spiritual than natural) termed the natural and the spiritual Israel. The spiritual Israel has always been the true Israel in the sense God has used it. He has made promises to natural Israel that are fulfilled accordingly, but ultimately His view is to what endures forever. And in that sense, Israel and the church are no different. True Israel has always been true Israel and the church is the expression of that in a people not in national Israel.
Spoiler
In one passage, Paul makes the entire focus spiritual - even to the extent of confirming his claim that the people of God ARE the temple of God. He makes no spiritual distinction between believers but has them all part of the same body (remember, there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ). So while there are undoubtedly promises of God for those "of (natural) Israel", they are only fulfilled in Christ the same way they are fulfilled for those who are not of national Israel. In other words, (spiritual) Israel has always been (spiritual) Israel and there has never been a different Israel in view. They are both the "Israel of God" - a spiritual body comprised of individuals of independent national/ethnic entities. I don't dispute that there may be physical/temporal promises that are due Israel (though I would probably disagree as to which ones and how many) but on identification of Israel in God's eyes, I see only one that encompasses both Jew and Gentile.
That's a summary, at least, of my take on it.
Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
That right there is a contrast between who of Physical Israel was /was not actually of the Israel "of God."
While in the following, both Israels, and the Body of Christ; are mentioned.
Law breaking Israelites...
Galatians 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 6:13 For neither they themselves that are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
____________________
An Israelite indeed, and yet, a member of the Body...
6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
_____________________
Neither Jew nor Gentile. Rather, Body members....
6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
______________________
Both groups "of God" - Body of Christ members, and The Israel of God.
6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Given that both groups "of God" had then walked the Earth...it can be confusing...
Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 16:7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
Said Israel of God eventually diminished away...until some point after...the fullness of the Gentiles be come in...Rom. 11:12, 25.
After which both groups "of God" will be prominent once more..."in the Lord Jesus Christ;"
"Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named," Eph. 3:14,15.
2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
That right there is a contrast between who of Physical Israel was /was not actually of the Israel "of God."
While in the following, both Israels, and the Body of Christ; are mentioned.
Law breaking Israelites...
Galatians 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 6:13 For neither they themselves that are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
____________________
An Israelite indeed, and yet, a member of the Body...
6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
_____________________
Neither Jew nor Gentile. Rather, Body members....
6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
______________________
Both groups "of God" - Body of Christ members, and The Israel of God.
6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Given that both groups "of God" had then walked the Earth...it can be confusing...
Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 16:7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
Said Israel of God eventually diminished away...until some point after...the fullness of the Gentiles be come in...Rom. 11:12, 25.
After which both groups "of God" will be prominent once more..."in the Lord Jesus Christ;"
"Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named," Eph. 3:14,15.
"And the spiritual component - which is the eternal and more critical of the two - does not find the distinction that dispensationalism wants to make between Israel and the church. This is where I think the goalposts are moved - in conflating what may be (some of the promises and prophecies I think are more spiritual than natural) termed the natural and the spiritual Israel. The spiritual Israel has always been the true Israel in the sense God has used it."
Yes.
Redefining Israel as being only of the flesh, that is, that Israel is defined entirely as those of the bloodline, is false. And making the Church a second and separate people of God contradicting John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5 and Ephesians 4: 4, and trying to make church from ekklesia into a unique body of people rather than just a meeting, assembly or congregation is also false. William Tyndale consistently translated ekklesia as congregation, breaking with the Catholics who in their first English New Testament - the John Wycliffe Bible in 1382 - translated ecclesia. as churche. The Wycliffe Bible was translated from Jerome's Latin Vulgate.
Yes.
Redefining Israel as being only of the flesh, that is, that Israel is defined entirely as those of the bloodline, is false. And making the Church a second and separate people of God contradicting John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5 and Ephesians 4: 4, and trying to make church from ekklesia into a unique body of people rather than just a meeting, assembly or congregation is also false. William Tyndale consistently translated ekklesia as congregation, breaking with the Catholics who in their first English New Testament - the John Wycliffe Bible in 1382 - translated ecclesia. as churche. The Wycliffe Bible was translated from Jerome's Latin Vulgate.
andyc
New member
This is all a bit of overblown with emotionalism. Did you cry watching ET?
Israel is the church. Only those who of faith are Abraham's seed, and are spiritually blessed with Abraham.
Those who who are trusting in their snipped foreskins are as lost as ISIS terrorists.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle: