Jewish magic or mystical Kabbalah practices

Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
the589 said:
The law isn't the law to be 'saved, or attain salvation'. Rather it's just the (eternal) law, simple examples; incest, violence. These things are abominations regardless wether a person believes or he doesn't.

Maybe you can say the law doesnt make a person righteous but you can say anyone who trespasses it certainly does unrighteousness. Maybe not black and white like that but to a certain degree

You forget Jesus was a scholar and teacher of the Torah himself. He kept Torah since a child, example; obediance to his parents. When Jesus spoke on/to (specific) pharisees he speaks that they dont keep the Torah, being clean on the outside but dirty on the inside (parable). (Leviticus 19:17) or (Leviticus 26:41) for example proves that they who called to murder Jesus didnt keep Torah

The ten commandments is Torah and it almost includes all of the commandments in the Torah by default. Maybe the dietary laws are different(nontheless law); Noah was allowed to eat of every cattle. And second Jesus also pronounced all meats clean.

I guess my point is (really) keeping the Torah is also to be humble and upright in heart
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Law-based religions are found everywhere not just in Judaism. The monk or nun will say the works and vows that I do and keep will please God and he will save me. The Jew will say if I am diligent to follow all the commands in the Torah God will regard them and I will be saved. The Muslim will say that if I keep all the commands in the Koran and perform ritual prayer and pilgrimage God will save me. The eastern Mystic will try to reach Nirvana by meditation and performing karma which is another term for good deeds. It's all works/law-based religion. Judaism is just one of many.
 
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chair

Well-known member
Epoisses said:
.. The Jew will say if I am diligent to follow all the commands in the Torah God will regard them and I will be saved. ....
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Again, the Jew doesn't say that. Being "saved" is a a Christian concept, which you are projecting on other religions and cultures.

The Jew will say: "I will follow God's law because that is what He asked me to do." Or, in some cases: "I will do this, because that is what Jews do."
 
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the589

New member
Epoisses said:
Law-based religions are found everywhere not just in Judaism. The monk or nun will say the works and vows that I do and keep will please God and he will save me. The Jew will say if I am diligent to follow all the commands in the Torah God will regard them and I will be saved. The Muslim will say that if I keep all the commands in the Koran and perform ritual prayer and pilgrimage God will save me. The eastern Mystic will try to reach Nirvana by meditation and performing karma which is another term for good deeds. It's all works/law-based religion. Judaism is just one of many.
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It is where (need for) forgiveness comes in. The concept of (doing) right or evil which we are all bestowed with we know when we do good, wrong or evil. We know when we do evil or wrong we lose favor with whatever is 'good' (for me that ultimate authority is G-d). Here is where in Christianity the son of G-d is sent to the world as messiah for the Earth to preach repentance of sin and forgiveness, and it is by faith and grace to (once) be forgiven. I think in the core it doesnt vary at all regardless of the many religions because even the OT, NT even Islam, even Buddhism or Hinduism and even for the atheist. That you repent (turn away) from doing evil and start doing/seeking the good, that you will live. Ezekiel 14:6, 2 Chronicles 7:14. (NT) Matthew 3:2

Even an atheist will say there is redemption for a person if he turns his ways.

That is (the eternal) law. I can go in depth with OT to explain that G-d (absolutely) hates evil and loves the good and upright and righteous. And to give it a more Christian twist all evil is sin and all sin is evil.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
chair said:
Again, the Jew doesn't say that. Being "saved" is a a Christian concept, which you are projecting on other religions and cultures.

The Jew will say: "I will follow God's law because that is what He asked me to do." Or, in some cases: "I will do this, because that is what Jews do."
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...as if you speak for all Jews. My wife is Jewish and her grandfather was a Rabbi so you're not the only one.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
the589 said:
It is where (need for) forgiveness comes in. The concept of (doing) right or evil which we are all bestowed with we know when we do good, wrong or evil. We know when we do evil or wrong we lose favor with whatever is 'good' (for me that ultimate authority is G-d). Here is where in Christianity the son of G-d is sent to the world as messiah for the Earth to preach repentance of sin and forgiveness, and it is by faith and grace to (once) be forgiven. I think in the core it doesnt vary at all regardless of the many religions because even the OT, NT even Islam, even Buddhism or Hinduism and even for the atheist. That you repent (turn away) from doing evil and start doing/seeking the good, that you will live. Ezekiel 14:6, 2 Chronicles 7:14. (NT) Matthew 3:2

Even an atheist will say there is redemption for a person if he turns his ways.

That is (the eternal) law. I can go in depth with OT to explain that G-d (absolutely) hates evil and loves the good and upright and righteous. And to give it a more Christian twist all evil is sin and all sin is evil.
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You haven't really addressed my post at all. The Torah is obsolete and only had a place before Christ and the gospel. Turning from sin as you say is just performing some good deeds which is just more sin. Real repentance for sin is understanding that everything we do good and bad is sin in the eyes of God.
 
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the589

New member
Epoisses said:
You haven't really addressed my post at all. The Torah is obsolete and only had a place before Christ and the gospel. Turning from sin as you say is just performing some good deeds which is just more sin. Real repentance for sin is understanding that everything we do good and bad is sin in the eyes of God.
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By that you're also saying the 10 commandments are obsolete which are torah? Even the law(s) Christ gave to the gentiles are (more complete) torah (like Mark 12:31). Then there's verses like 1 John 3:4, and multiple verses such as Romans 3:31. But by NT standards you're a judge of the law and the people that keep the law as obsolete; James 4:11
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
the589 said:
By that you're also saying the 10 commandments are obsolete which are torah? Even the law(s) Christ gave to the gentiles are (more complete) torah (like Mark 12:31). Then there's verses like 1 John 3:4, and multiple verses such as Romans 3:31. But by NT standards you're a judge of the law and the people that keep the law as obsolete; James 4:11
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The ten commandments are for unbelievers who do not have faith, grace or love. They need the reward/punishment system so they can coexist with other unbelievers. God holds believers to a much higher standard than the ten commandments. Jesus said if you have hate or lust in your heart you are breaking the law before you even do anything. Did you know that God's law is broken in the mind or heart before it is ever broken in the life?
 
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the589

New member
Epoisses said:
The ten commandments are for unbelievers who do not have faith, grace or love. They need the reward/punishment system so they can coexist with other unbelievers. God holds believers to a much higher standard than the ten commandments. Jesus said if you have hate or lust in your heart you are breaking the law before you even do anything. Did you know that God's law is broken in the mind or heart before it is ever broken in the life?
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You just said the law was obsolete, so by what standard do you break the law if the law is obsolete? Obviously if the torah is obsolete there is no standard of law to uphold right?
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
the589 said:
You just said the law was obsolete, so by what standard do you break the law if the law is obsolete? Obviously if the torah is obsolete there is no standard of law to uphold right?
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God's love is the standard which hate and lust would be a violation of.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
chair said:
So, did you ask the Rabbi?
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He's 90 now and losing his mind and can't even remember his own name anymore. They're eastern European Jews who lived thru the holocaust so they're a different flavor than what we have over here. His son married a Gentile woman who loves to sing and dance so they're not Orthodox.
 
C

chair

Well-known member
Epoisses said:
He's 90 now and losing his mind and can't even remember his own name anymore. They're eastern European Jews who lived thru the holocaust so they're a different flavor than what we have over here. His son married a Gentile woman who loves to sing and dance so they're not Orthodox.
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Sorry to hear about his condition.

I was trying to point out that your wife's grandfather having been a rabbi doesn'y provide any support for your claims.
 
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