Jesus is God !

[freelight]

Sharing crow stew.......

Sharing crow stew.......

That's right...ignore that verse, and your VERY OWN sources, like usual...

Eat some more crow on this one...


And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal. (1 John 5.20)

All Trinitarian proof-texts do not necessarily or absolutely prove Jesus is God, since there are plenty of other verses that support a Unitarian POV. This is still true anyways, since the orthodox formula on Jesus accepts that he is 100% Man, and that part of Jesus is NOT 'God'. So you just jump thru so many metaphysical hoops and still land in a 'box' of con-fusion.

You'd also have to prove that 'God' cares whether one is Trinitarian or Unitarian, since I suspect true 'God' is above such denominational hang-ups, since he looks at the heart, sees one's faith, integrity and desire to do his will. That is what is key, NOT over-inflating a doctrine that is not as important.




pj

 

[Pierac]

Where is Jesus alive at? As the Jew that he was, he is still in the grave.

No my friend... the man Jesus is alive and well! He is the first born from the dead...

Psa 89:26 He shall cry to me, 'You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.' 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. 28 My steadfast love I will keep for him forever, and my covenant will stand firm for him. 29 I will establish his offspring forever and his throne as the days of the heavens.

In the spirit of prophecy, God announces that this king’s superior position is a matter of appointment, not the time of birth. Furthermore, God makes his appointed king "the highest [in status and rank] of the kings of the earth." Thus, when the apostle applies the term “first-born” to the son of God in Colossians 1, he is using a well-known OT Messianic description.

In fact, the expression is repeated, where Paul writes, “He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead” (v.18).

The different qualifier here is noteworthy. Whereas in verse 15 the Son is the “first-born” of all creation,” here the Son is the "first-born from the dead.” If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism, where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form, it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" means the same thing.

The thought is clearly that Jesus the son of God (King of Israel) is the first man of God's new creation, because he is the first man ever to be raised to immortality. Christ returned is the beginning of the eschatological resurrection. His resurrection is the promise and the guarantee that God's new order of reality has begun. The church is that new community in prospect. This confirms that the subject matter under discussion is not the Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth, but rather the creation of the church, the body of believers who constitute God's new humanity, the New Man(kind). For this reason, he is the beginning (arche which has an ambivalence, and can mean either the ruler or chief, or origin or beginning, v. 18) Either way, Jesus as the first-raised from the dead is the origin of God's new creation, and he is in consequence of this priority and resurrection also the highest in rank "so that he himself might come to have first place in everything" (v.18). However, whether we take the term firstborn to mean first in relation to time or first in relation to rank, this much is at least clear, that taken in its natural sense, the expression and firstborn excludes the notion of an uncreated, eternal being.

Moses taught the Jews demanded a mediator. So how is Jesus the first born?

(Deut.18:15). In this passage, Moses predicts that the coming Messiah would be a person "like me," raised up from "among" the people of Israel, and that God would not speak to the people directly, because they were afraid that if God spoke without a mediator they would die (V16). The coming "prophet" would be a man of whom it is said that God would "put his word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him” (v. 18-19). To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy.

Paul teaches that Jesus is a risen man... the returning mediator between God and men that Moses in Deut.18:15-18 predicted!

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Scriptures teaches... Jesus is not your GOD... He's your one and only mediator... Your coming KING!

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

Act 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

Act 5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.

Act 10:40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Act 13:30 "But God raised Him from the dead;

He is not in the grave Ben Masada, The man Jesus is coming/returning to be your King and mediator between you and God!

oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Apple7]

You have a reading problem Apple. John speaks of God and his son. You fail to see the content of the verse you quote. In my opinion you need help with reading English.

Your Trinitarian sources say the same thing I already posted.

Deal with it...

 

[Apple7]

All Trinitarian proof-texts do not necessarily or absolutely prove Jesus is God, since there are plenty of other verses that support a Unitarian POV.

Show us.

This is still true anyways, since the orthodox formula on Jesus accepts that he is 100% Man, and that part of Jesus is NOT 'God'. So you just jump thru so many metaphysical hoops and still land in a 'box' of con-fusion.

As the God-man there can be no confusion.

All scripture adheres to this pattern.

Deal with it...:up:

You'd also have to prove that 'God' cares whether one is Trinitarian or Unitarian, since I suspect true 'God' is above such denominational hang-ups, since he looks at the heart, sees one's faith, integrity and desire to do his will. That is what is key, NOT over-inflating a doctrine that is not as important.

The Righteous worship The Creator as He has revealed Himself, Triune.

There is only eternal death for those willfully opposing this Biblical truth...

 

[Simon Baker]

Where is Jesus alive at? As the Jew that he was, he is still in the grave.

With God ! Incredulous !



View attachment 19363

 

[keypurr]

Your Trinitarian sources say the same thing I already posted.

Deal with it...

I have no problem to deal with Apple7, you do.

Still waiting for your scripture proof that Jesus is God.
Its been about two years now.

 

[freelight]

Truth be told..........

Truth be told..........

Show us.

Any half baked bible scholar can do just that. Go here for starters. Beyond that I wont play your religious 'game'. I'm not a slave of trinitarianism or any 'ism' for that matter, but truth is essential, and it considers and includes all info., it doesn't worship one concept of 'God' as 'God',....but recognizes 'God' as Infinite Spirit. Remember, Jesus said 'God is Spirit'. Jesus pointed to 'The Father' as his God and Father. The Infinite SPIRIT is greater than all, and is the source of us all.

As the God-man there can be no confusion.

There is potential con-fusion where you have a 'entity' that is 100% God and 100% Man simultaneously. I grant that some extra-biblical religious writings (such as the Urantia Papers) also consider Jesus as being both 'human' and 'divine', being the 'Creator-Son', who did incarnate to live here on earth, to reveal the Father's perfect love, to preach the kingdom of heaven, to give the divine word (revelation) to man.

All scripture adheres to this pattern.

Yeah,....as you 'read' into it, or superimpose into its terminology and context. Custom theology

Deal with it...:up:

I do more 'dealing with religious' subjects than you can wave a thumb at, and have stood my ground doing so

The Righteous worship The Creator as He has revealed Himself, Triune.

God is God. Infinite Spirit or Consciousness, includes all in its infinite fullness. - A higher paradise trinity is revealed in the Urantia Papers, and of course in orthodox christainity, and that is fine, conceptually speaking, but you take it further to the point of immortalized 'dogma', and get to tag along the 'apologetics' that come with such, which become your 'arsenal' to 'win' over other religionists.

Truth is reality that stands on its own, because its what actually IS. Reality is what is. Its is omnipresent, timeless, it is what now ever exists, what is now ever-present. It is prior to thought, concepts or images created by the mind.

There is only eternal death for those willfully opposing this Biblical truth...

That's your opinion. Jesus didn't elaborate a discourse on the Triune-nature of God, read his words in the gospels. What did he teach about us worshipping the Father who is Spirit, and greater than he? Who did he teach us to pray to? This takes us back onto the old merry-go-round of usual Unitarian/Trinitarian circles. Its mind numbing.



pj

 

[Lazy afternoon]

No my friend... the man Jesus is alive and well! He is the first born from the dead...

Psa 89:26 He shall cry to me, 'You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.' 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. 28 My steadfast love I will keep for him forever, and my covenant will stand firm for him. 29 I will establish his offspring forever and his throne as the days of the heavens.

In the spirit of prophecy, God announces that this king’s superior position is a matter of appointment, not the time of birth. Furthermore, God makes his appointed king "the highest [in status and rank] of the kings of the earth." Thus, when the apostle applies the term “first-born” to the son of God in Colossians 1, he is using a well-known OT Messianic description.

In fact, the expression is repeated, where Paul writes, “He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead” (v.18).

The different qualifier here is noteworthy. Whereas in verse 15 the Son is the “first-born” of all creation,” here the Son is the "first-born from the dead.” If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism, where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form, it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" means the same thing.

The thought is clearly that Jesus the son of God (King of Israel) is the first man of God's new creation, because he is the first man ever to be raised to immortality. Christ returned is the beginning of the eschatological resurrection. His resurrection is the promise and the guarantee that God's new order of reality has begun. The church is that new community in prospect. This confirms that the subject matter under discussion is not the Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth, but rather the creation of the church, the body of believers who constitute God's new humanity, the New Man(kind). For this reason, he is the beginning (arche which has an ambivalence, and can mean either the ruler or chief, or origin or beginning, v. 18) Either way, Jesus as the first-raised from the dead is the origin of God's new creation, and he is in consequence of this priority and resurrection also the highest in rank "so that he himself might come to have first place in everything" (v.18). However, whether we take the term firstborn to mean first in relation to time or first in relation to rank, this much is at least clear, that taken in its natural sense, the expression and firstborn excludes the notion of an uncreated, eternal being.

Moses taught the Jews demanded a mediator. So how is Jesus the first born?

(Deut.18:15). In this passage, Moses predicts that the coming Messiah would be a person "like me," raised up from "among" the people of Israel, and that God would not speak to the people directly, because they were afraid that if God spoke without a mediator they would die (V16). The coming "prophet" would be a man of whom it is said that God would "put his word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him” (v. 18-19). To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy.

Paul teaches that Jesus is a risen man... the returning mediator between God and men that Moses in Deut.18:15-18 predicted!

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Scriptures teaches... Jesus is not your GOD... He's your one and only mediator... Your coming KING!

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

Act 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

Act 5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.

Act 10:40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Act 13:30 "But God raised Him from the dead;

He is not in the grave Ben Masada, The man Jesus is coming/returning to be your King and mediator between you and God!

oly::sherlock:
Paul

I love the truth. You speak it well.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Any half baked bible scholar can do just that. Go here for starters. Beyond that I wont play your religious 'game'. I'm not a slave of trinitarianism or any 'ism' for that matter, but truth is essential, and it considers and includes all info., it doesn't worship one concept of 'God' as 'God',....but recognizes 'God' as Infinite Spirit. Remember, Jesus said 'God is Spirit'. Jesus pointed to 'The Father' as his God and Father. The Infinite SPIRIT is greater than all, and is the source of us all.



There is potential con-fusion where you have a 'entity' that is 100% God and 100% Man simultaneously. I grant that some extra-biblical religious writings (such as the Urantia Papers) also consider Jesus as being both 'human' and 'divine', being the 'Creator-Son', who did incarnate to live here on earth, to reveal the Father's perfect love, to preach the kingdom of heaven, to give the divine word (revelation) to man.



Yeah,....as you 'read' into it, or superimpose into its terminology and context. Custom theology



I do more 'dealing with religious' subjects than you can wave a thumb at, and have stood my ground doing so



God is God. Infinite Spirit or Consciousness, includes all in its infinite fullness. - A higher paradise trinity is revealed in the Urantia Papers, and of course in orthodox christainity, and that is fine, conceptually speaking, but you take it further to the point of immortalized 'dogma', and get to tag along the 'apologetics' that come with such, which become your 'arsenal' to 'win' over other religionists.

Truth is reality that stands on its own, because its what actually IS. Reality is what is. Its is omnipresent, timeless, it is what now ever exists, what is now ever-present. It is prior to thought, concepts or images created by the mind.



That's your opinion. Jesus didn't elaborate a discourse on the Triune-nature of God, read his words in the gospels. What did he teach about us worshipping the Father who is Spirit, and greater than he? Who did he teach us to pray to? This takes us back onto the old merry-go-round of usual Unitarian/Trinitarian circles. Its mind numbing.



pj

Trinitarianism is learnt from men who could not understand the truth and people like them love it.

LA

 

[Aimiel]

How does that make him God? Consider that God made him Lord.

If God made Him Lord, He did so before creation. Jesus created everything there is. He is The Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the earth. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He's always been. Those who are born again see Truth, since The Kingdom is progressive and The Holy Spirit reveals Truths to those who are part of That Kingdom. Without being born again you cannot even yet see The Kingdom.

 

[Ben Masada]

[COLOR=With God ! Incredulous !

[ATTACH]19363[/ATTACH]

In the grave! If you read Mark 12:27 the Lord is not the God of the dead but of the living. He could never be with Jesus in the grave.

 

[beloved57]

In the grave! If you read Mark 12:27 the Lord is not the God of the dead but of the living. He could never be with Jesus in the grave.

What about the golden calf?

 

[Apple7]

Still waiting for your scripture proof that Jesus is God.
Its been about two years now.

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου

:cigar:

 

[Apple7]

Any half baked bible scholar can do just that. Go here for starters. Beyond that I wont play your religious 'game'. I'm not a slave of trinitarianism or any 'ism' for that matter, but truth is essential, and it considers and includes all info., it doesn't worship one concept of 'God' as 'God',....but recognizes 'God' as Infinite Spirit. Remember, Jesus said 'God is Spirit'. Jesus pointed to 'The Father' as his God and Father. The Infinite SPIRIT is greater than all, and is the source of us all.

pj

Now that's precious...reply by linking to a website....now that takes a lot of effort on YOUR part...

:rotfl:

 

[Pierac]

If God made Him Lord, He did so before creation. Jesus created everything there is. He is The Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the earth. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He's always been. Those who are born again see Truth, since The Kingdom is progressive and The Holy Spirit reveals Truths to those who are part of That Kingdom. Without being born again you cannot even yet see The Kingdom.

Your quoting what you are taught in a monolog service! Your pastor teaches it and no one is allowed to debate or correct. This is why you believe such (lies) or more correctly failure to see THE TRUTH! You follow men not scripture!

READ Jesus' lips... not what traditions of men teach you! Jesus did not create anything!

Jesus never claimed credit for the original Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth. He was in no doubt that the universe was God's handiwork.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth

Who's GOD?

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

MAKE NOTE! Jesus has a God… "Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:3). Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, (1Co 8:6)

Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.


What GOD is Jesus speaking about? His GOD, the GOD of our risen KING...

Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

You can not be God and then claim to have one... as Jesus does both before and after His resurrection.

You follow when you should seek!
oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[keypurr]

If God made Him Lord, He did so before creation. Jesus created everything there is. He is The Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the earth. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He's always been. Those who are born again see Truth, since The Kingdom is progressive and The Holy Spirit reveals Truths to those who are part of That Kingdom. Without being born again you cannot even yet see The Kingdom.

Christ was God's first creation and he created everything through Christ. Jesus was a man born to Mary. Your confused on that friend. Christ is a created form of God, the spiritual son that moved across the face of the waters in Genesis 1. Jesus was born in Bethlehem. The spiritual son, Christ, needed a body to dwell in when he took the form of man, that is why God created Jesus in Mary.

But you do not understand things like that because they do not teach it in church. Why? Because they do not know it, they only know what they have been taught by tradition. I find that sad.

Now if God made Jesus Christ Lord, he must be greater than Jesus Christ. That kind of destroys your three headed God.

 

[keypurr]

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου

:cigar:

English is not the only language you don't know.

 

[keypurr]

Your quoting what you are taught in a monolog service! Your pastor teaches it and no one is allowed to debate or correct. This is why you believe such (lies) or more correctly failure to see THE TRUTH! You follow men not scripture!

READ Jesus' lips... not what traditions of men teach you! Jesus did not create anything!

Jesus never claimed credit for the original Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth. He was in no doubt that the universe was God's handiwork.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth

Who's GOD?

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

MAKE NOTE! Jesus has a God… "Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:3). Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, (1Co 8:6)

Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.


What GOD is Jesus speaking about? His GOD, the GOD of our risen KING...

Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

You can not be God and then claim to have one... as Jesus does both before and after His resurrection.

You follow when you should seek!
oly::sherlock:
Paul

Paul you have been telling this to these folks for years now. They simply do not wish to rock their false religion.

Good to see you back here my friend.

 

[freelight]

Precious insights........

Precious insights........

Now that's precious...reply by linking to a website....now that takes a lot of effort on YOUR part...

Look at my entire message, that's the context. The BiblicalUnitarian site is an excellent resource showing a scriptural support for a Unitarian Theology/Christology, - they do an EXCELLENT job there, instead of me bring up obvious passages which clearly show distinction/difference between The Father and his anointed human representative, and the fact that the 'Messiah' can also refer to the collective peoplehood of God, 'Israel' as a whole.

Elsewhere, my challenge and exploration of the claim that 'Jesus is God' holds.....since only the Infinite Spirit is 'God', even if 'God' has assumed or incarnated in different physical bodies or tabernacles,....STILL....the Universal Father is 'God' over all, the Ancestor of all, the Fountainhead, the Original One. This 'God' has many Sons/sons, from an upper hierarchy of divine Sons, to adopted mortal sons, born of His Spirit.

Anyone can spew an assortment or arsenal of verses (subject to interpretation), but I approach this more philosophically, or as an 'eclectic',...since one can choose either a Unitarian or Trinitarian view by their own rationale ( or some other Christology), and still 'God' is 'God', and His Son (or Messiah), remains His Son, with the same power to save, heal and deliver...differences only being in how terms and persons are defined or 'related'.



pj

 

[freelight]

God is Spirit......

God is Spirit......

Now if God made Jesus Christ Lord, he must be greater than Jesus Christ. That kind of destroys your three headed God.

28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. - John 14:28

Logically, Jesus pointed his disciples to the The Father, who is the source of Life. All things originate back with-in The Father. God is Spirit.



pj